Merger Talk

[ferben1994]

What I find slightly curious about CTO is the lack of Inverness based mods /site admin and this also seems to apply to the most prolific or more vocal posters amongst us I don't really think some posters should accuse all refuseniks to be old firm supporters though when there are a fair number of posters within our own ranks that fall in the same bracket I'd hazard a guess everyone ICT supporter over the age of 35 would have a so called big team me included(Nottingham Forest) Dougal

I was a season ticket holding Inverness based supporter when I founded the site in 1994 ... but life happens. Would you like me to turn it over to someone else now that I am in Toronto and just a shareholder rather than a locally based season ticket holder? Make me an offer? I know the costs involved in having run this site for free but using commercial grade hosting and software for the last 18, almost 19 years.

As for supporting a big team, yes i followed one (rather than supported one) prior to the creation of ICT. That team was Celtic. I was a paying customer at Telford Street but watched/supported Celtic on TV. My first visit to Celtic Park was the postponed game in 2000 where I ran an ICT bus via the Caley Inn, and my first time inside the stadium was in the away end on Feb 8th 2000. Even one of the ultimate refuseniks (Kavs), told me later that he respected the fact that I was a Caley fan and that I dropped all other allegiances when ICT was formed, even if he himself could not respect 'that team'.

I am now a season ticket holder at Toronto FC in MLS and make no secret of my Scottish allegiance. If the two teams ever played, I would be in the ICT end and that is a fact. TFC are my wee team now, even if TFC play in a larger stadium, have a larger fan base, more money etc etc etc ......

As I've mentioned before , the lack of respect shown to Thistle is the only thing wrong with the merger . Otherwise it has been one success story after another . 2nd in the league , managed by a former Captain of England , and just knocked off Celtic in their own back yard , trust me , it will never be as good as this ever again , but why oh why , the insulting playing strip , how would Caley fans like it if Caley Thistle played in black and red stripes , with a few (almost invisible) blue squiggles through it ?

I'd like us just to play in solid red and blue vertically striped strips, Barcelona style.

I would not argue with the strip thing other than to say that aesthetically there are limited things you can do with red/white/blue/black. I would be happy if we had a red/black home strip and blue/white away strip then alternated them every couple of years. Regardless of percentages, both Thistle and Caley are our history and should be viewed as equal partners.

Alternatively, I would also back a permanent combination of (equal width) red/blue vertical stripes. Those have always been my favourite ICT strips and as mentioned above, definitely unique. It is our "Brand" if you like. If other teams (globally) with vertical stripes or (in the SPL) with horizontal stripes can stick with the same basic design and just tweak it every year or two to be slightly different then I dont see why we cannot .... our away strip could then alternate between blue/white and red/black etc .....

I couldn't care where the mod's are based.

They are lousy whether in the schneck or timbucktoo

Why? because we closed a thread that had become personal and abusive? We did that 18 years ago, we did it 10 years ago, and we will continue to do it. However, please feel free to follow our site rules and report the specific message that so offends you and the mods will discuss and/or re-open threads (minus the abuse) if they feel it is warranted.

i never abused anyone on that thread. If anything i was called an idiot for comparing what we are doing this year and hopefully next with another small team but with a bit of tongue in cheek attached.

I do apologise tho for my last comment on this thread. Out of order.

Anyway to one and all (ictfc fans players management and their families) have a super Xmas and lets have another 3 points come boxing day

[Scotty]

Yet post #109 is acceptable . Usual double standards !

The clue is in my original response.

[Scotty]

i never abused anyone on that thread. If anything i was called an idiot for comparing what we are doing this year and hopefully next with another small team but with a bit of tongue in cheek attached.I do apologise tho for my last comment on this thread. Out of order.

 

Anyway to one and all (ictfc fans players management and their families) have a super Xmas and lets have another 3 points come boxing day

 

Again, read my response ... I never accused anyone of being abusive, just said the thread itself had become abusive and that is why it was closed by one of the mods. I did not close it, but I do agree with the decision.

 

Wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence, and maybe the Christmas spirit (or spirits) can help this thread get back on topic .....

[Charles Bannerman]

What's an Alloa? Or indeed an Arbroath?

 

It's a pity that some supporters need to pay homage to the original teams, even after all this time.

 

What a pity we didn't start with a clean slate - a team called Inverness - no Caley and no Thistle, playing in a strip with no blue, white, red or black.

 

As many have pointed out, the younger supporters only know of ICT - they had no allegiance to either of the original teams. They think of ICT as a team in its own right - not an amalgamation of two now-defunct teams, and that's the way it should be.

 

As the years go by more and more supporters will be of this persuasion and eventually this ridiculous carry-on with strip colours will end.

 

Sadly, by then, me and Charles will be long gone!

Yes that would have been a much more peaceful solution but, unfortunately, politically impossible since Caley and Thistle at least had current or recent individual aspirations towards SFL membership and the notion of Inverness clubs merging had also been well engraved on the local psyche over earlier decades. There was in addition the asset question, especially after it "emerged" (I would LOVE to know the real truth behind that one!) in the autumn of 1993 that Thistle actually owned Kingsmills.

Personally I am comfortable with the club's double tracked pre-history and cherish it, as well as Clach (and indeed Citadel since my father was born on Shore street. And, having survived almost two decades since those terribly difficult days which came so close so often to denying Inverness national league fotoball, I really don't see ICT as facing any significant threat from these problems of all these years ago.

It happened, it was for the best by a magnitude totally unanticipated at the time. Those who don't like that can't turn the clock back-  nor would many want to.

Don - I am interested in what your belief that consderations relating to the merger may still be holding the club back. I really wouldn't want to discuss that on here, but maybe we could have a private chat about this some time.

I could even pop up to speak to you in the announcer's box when you are there to give the announcer the feedback about what people on here have been saying about him.  

 

Buckett... what I mean by an "Alloa or Arbroath"  is one of these worthy Scottish football treasures which yoyos about the middle reaches of the SFL and hopes every few years in the cup to draw a top half SPL team like....... well ICT!!!

And as far as the strip is concerned, that was what almost terminally hacked off INE away back in 1994 (they issued an absolutely classic "plague on both your houses" rebuke at one point) and it's a pity to see this emerge again. However, not for partisan reasons, I still like to see identifiable blue, black and red out on the pitch there (but not so much blue as to confuse with Rangers.)

Edited December 24, 2012 by Charles Bannerman

[ForzaCaley]

As many have pointed out, the younger supporters only know of ICT - they had no allegiance to either of the original teams. They think of ICT as a team in its own right - not an amalgamation of two now-defunct teams, and that's the way it should be.

As the years go by more and more supporters will be of this persuasion and eventually this ridiculous carry-on with strip colours will end.

For me, this is 100% true! I started following ICT in 1996 as a 7 year old and have no affiliation with the two old clubs, however, i am well aware of the merger history and i like to personally remember both teams and their histories and even go as far to say i support them BOTH. This is because to me, Caley and Thistle are like older brothers who created the finest club the Highlands have ever seen. This is why, like me, we should CELEBRATE the merger and stop bickering about it!

And with the whole strip thing....

If you were to ask any of my generation, what is ICTs identity? I believe the vast majority would say blue and red stripes. We're coming up to the 20th anniversary of our formation and in 2014 we will have a new home shirt. I would love it if the club would draw a line under the past and look to the future and say "We Are ICT, And This Is Our Identity" and bring out a 50/50 blue and red striped home shirt! Ditch the white and black or like the current away, white and black can be the away shirt colours. Crystal Palace are the only other team in the British Isles who sport red/blue stripes and we would be the only ones in Scotland. If like this season (so far) assaulting the top of the table becomes a regular occurance, we need to have an identity so that those the world over know exactly who the MIGHTY ICT ARE!!

[Scotty]

Bit of a bugger when we play Barca in the Champions League though

[ForzaCaley]

They go for a PSG look these days. They foresaw a clash with ICT and feared the immortal one :)

[CaleyD]

Don - I am interested in what your belief that consderations relating to the merger may still be holding the club back. I really wouldn't want to discuss that on here, but maybe we could have a private chat about this some time.

 

Nothing sinister, and much of it probably fuelled by just the kind of thing that we are seeing on this thread where we have a few people who still get their knickers in a twist over references to the team as "Caley" or, less often, "Thistle".  Also things like the strip designs which still seem to be decided on the (now defunct) entry in the company articles which stated that it must have a certain make-up.  The total non-existence of any kind of "retro" club memorabilia which celebrates the pre-merger clubs.  Suggestions that we should have recognised the 125th Anniversaries of both clubs being totally shunned at the time.

 

It all seems a bit backwards to me and it's as if , unwittingly, we keep the stuff we need rid of and fail to embrace the stuff that we should be celebrating.

 

This whole merger conversation has been had many times, but for the first time (that I recall) someone has mentioned the word "identity" and the more I think of it, the more I find to support the idea that ICT probably does lack somewhat in terms of having an identity upon which we can hang everything else....and maybe, just maybe, that lack of a quantifiable identity and something people can really buy in to, is why supporter levels etc are not what they could be....and not just in terms of strip design.

[TheCaleyjags123]

I don't think the club should be trying to make the strips similar to caley or thistles previous strips and at the end of the day ICT are a new club, probably better to move on and let  ICT have its own traditions like Kits etc. Personally think this years home kit is one of the nicest in the league anyway.

[Heilandee]

As an inside outsider, having followed the whole merger shenanigans, I'd have to agree with Caley D the greatest loss from the merger was any sense of history and identity. ICT are perceived by most as a completly new entity with little history.

I am aware of the great achievements of both town (city) teams relative to the resources available,also Elgin and County and the injustice of central belt bias in the Ferranti Meadowbank scandal when a strong Inverness Thistle side could have stood it's own no problem. History has a great say in which side was to be the dominant partner in the merger and timing was all, with Caley perceptually being the stronger partner at the time of ICT's conception. Would I be bitter if I was a Thistle fan? You bet yer arse I would!

Identity in Football is a massive factor in the supporters psyche and loyalty is engendered from the links with past.Having lived in Sneck far longer than Dundee it would have been a logical and easy step to take up supporting ICT but a sense of history and loyalty bonds me to my roots.

In my opinion, ICT need to work on building that sense of history and belonging that is missing at TCS,the young up and coming support have much to be optimistic about, i wouldn't be at all surprised to see the League (Communities) cup end up at TCS this season and Europe is absolutely a reality,the work on the pitch has been an unmitigated success, their needs to be a wee bit more attention to building the identity and history, thus engendering long term loyalty within the support.

Just my opinion.

[buckett]

If Thistle had got into the Scottish League instead of Meadowbank, I wonder if their progress would have been as spectacular as that of ICT, and indeed Ross County.

 

And what of Caley - would they still be in the Highland League? Would the Caley support migrate across the river to watch Scottish League football or would they remain loyal to their Highland League team? Would Caley in the HL still draw bigger crowds than Thistle in the Scottish League?

 

Doesn't bear thinking about!

[TopSix]

Let's make 2013 the year of #TogetherNess. (Starting on the 2nd of January.) ;-)

[DerbyDave]

What is quite evident to me during my 3 years as a member here , is that just about everybody is happy with the Crystal Palace/ Barcelona style Red and blue stripes .. it gives the Club real identity in Scotland and to a lesser degree, the UK.

 

I still believe it is important , the roots of the club are not forgotten , and is quite visible with that popular strip.

 

Why those on the Top table , never seem to listen to the majority of supporters , on issues such as the playing strip , I really don't know.

 

Meanwhile I happily acknowledge it is a great time , for anybody with some form of affection towards the Inverness Caley Thistle Footbal Club. 

[Alex MacLeod]

Personally I dont care about what colours our strip is made up from. I do agree though on the identity point. But never fear come next July we will have an identity. Our first foray into europe will have many ears pricked and pens scribing. We will be known around the globe. Bring on the Barca!!!

[TopSix]

I'll make a plea to the club to go back to solid red and blue vertical stripes for the next home top. Please!

[Alex MacLeod]

Personally I dont care about what colours our strip is made up from. I do agree though on the identity point. But never fear come next July we will have an identity. Our first foray into europe will have many ears pricked and pens scribing. We will be known around the globe. Bring on the Barca!!!

Censorship has gone a bit too far

[Renegade]

I think if you want to see what a club would look like had they not merged with the other and had remained in the Highland League, look no further than to the bright lights of Grant Street Park.  I went to see Clach play Formartine last season (to see what Paterson's new team was like and to witness another another performance by the legendary Bobby Mann!) and Clach had barely any fans.  Literrally no more than twenty or thirty!  Formartine to be fair brought a few, but there was hardly any for the home side.  Whose to say that had Caledonian or Thistle remained in that league, while the other entered the national leagues that they would not now be suffering a similar fate?

[clacher_holiday2]

Probably Renegade, twice a season two of the former 3 clubs would play each other and you'd have 500 folk there.

 

As I said earlier, I'm sure that if any of the clubs went it alone, they'd be where ICT are now, purely because the vast majority of football fans in Inverness never really supported any of the former clubs despite the fantasists claims based on big cup matches.  The 3,000 or so fans we have would be attending games regardless of which club it was.

 

If Clach were the big team in the early 90's, thousands would've turned out to see them in the Scottish Cup against the likes of St Johnstone.

 

Most football fans in Inverness back then had a big team and no real local team, if the alleged fans of Caledonian FC really existed, why did only a couple of hundred vote to save the club from death?  That's the hardest question for the brave few in fantasy land to answer, its a question thats usually ignored.

[The Mantis]

Most football fans in Inverness back then had a big team and no real local team, if the alleged fans of Caledonian FC really existed, why did only a couple of hundred vote to save the club from death?  That's the hardest question for the brave few in fantasy land to answer, its a question thats usually ignored.

Not that simple. You had to be a member, i.e. a season ticket holder, to have a vote.

[dougal]

What I find slightly curious about CTO is the lack of Inverness based mods /site admin and this also seems to apply to the most prolific or more vocal posters amongst usI don't really think some posters should accuse all refuseniks to be old firm supporters though when there are a fair number of posters within our own ranks that fall in the same bracketI'd hazard a guess everyone ICT supporter over the age of 35 would have a so called big team me included(Nottingham Forest)Dougal

Desperately wants to replace CaleyD as a mod imo.

Nah for a start I don't meet the criteria( Free Presbyterian, conservative tory voter or a masonic lodge member etc)

Anyway back on topic I find it quite astonishing that the likes of CaleyD and Alex have only just sussed that identity is problem as a result of the merger, I've said it before but it's going to take at least a generation or maybe two for this club to progress I.e the fan base to grow or to be taken seriously as we along with Livingston/Meadowbank/Ferranti are viewed as a franchise club at present, how long this will take I don't know but only time will rectify this

One thing is for sure there is no point continually griping on about the situation especially if you were the ones that previously voted the existing sides out of existence, you reap what you sow!!

Edit - regarding CaleyD's point about the club shunning or ignoring the 125th anniversaries of both original clubs, I reckon there is a very good reason for this just imagine the embarrassment if memorabilia from the past outsold the present

Dougal

Edited December 28, 2012 by dougal

[CaleyD]

Anyway back on topic I find it quite astonishing that the likes of CaleyD and Alex have only just sussed that identity is problem as a result of the merger, I've said it before but it's going to take at least a generation or maybe two for this club to progress I.e the fan base to grow or to be taken seriously as we along with Livingston/Meadowbank/Ferranti are viewed as a franchise club at present, how long this will take I don't know but only time will rectify this

One thing is for sure there is no point continually griping on about the situation especially if you were the ones that previously voted the existing sides out of existence, you reap what you sow!!

Edit - regarding CaleyD's point about the club shunning or ignoring the 125th anniversaries of both original clubs, I reckon there is a very good reason for this just imagine the embarrassment if memorabilia from the past outsold the present

Dougal

I think you misunderstand me.  I don't think identity is a problem as a result of the merger.  It would have been wrong and an insult to peoples intelligence to think everything was great and we were all just one big happy family in the years immediately following the event.  I also think that, as a club, we got it right in how it was handled during that time....our almost immediate success from day one is testament to that.

 

My thoughts are that we seem to have got stuck in that mindset and failed to manage and adapt to the changes that have occurred as the fanbase has evolved...and I think that goes just as much for fans of a certain age as it does for the club.  Again, I qualify that by saying that it's maybe not surprising as when something works for so long...and it worked for us for the first 10 years or so, although maybe deceivingly so to some extent off the park due to success on the park...then it's tough to recognise the need for change and put in to effect what is required.

 

I don't think anyone seriously sees us a "Franchise Club".  It's nothing more than a term thrown about, mostly by C*unty fans, to try and wind us up.  The only ones among our own "support" who ever seem to mention it are those who I class as Ambulance Chasers and only follow a team in the hope that something goes wrong because they get their rocks off by gloating over the carnage and taking some kind of superior "I told you so" attitude.

 

We are in agreement that there's no point in griping about what has passed...but that's not to say that it should be ignored or forgotten.  Until we can learn to look unblinkered at the past, we'll struggle to get a clear vision for the future.....and that goes just as much for fans over a certain age as it does the club.

[12th Man]

Look at it like the merger of Scottish brigade ( well not quite, nobody won the Victoria cross, got shrapnel, shot anyone or gralloched them with a bayonet on the pitch)

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the pride and Honor associated with  wearing  the badge,    I think the eight remaining abstainers should put their gripes to bed and come along and see what their original club has helped create, go buy a hat and scarf and go wear the badge with pride. 

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

problem as a result of the merger,

 

 

Problem? What problem?

 

As a club Caley Thistle has progressed from the Highland League to the SPL in the mere half generation since the merger took place, which is far better progress than anyone voting for or against the merger, especially the small number of eggs who volunteered to break themselves in the process of making this omelette, would ever have dreamt of.

 

So where's you problem Doogie?

[Alex MacLeod]

I would say that Dougal also misinterpreted my tongue in cheek comment. I was hinting more at lack of identity around the globe rather than among our fans. We have an identity in our badge. Its recognised by fans of other clubs as well as our own. We have an identity in that many folk around the UK and some further afield know the Sun headline. We have an identity by what we are doing on the pitch this season. We have an identity by being the first team from the Highland league system to reach the SPL.

 

Many of the older fans may not identify with the team in the same way as the younger ones do but in time that will change. Many of the well established teams in the country took many years to create an identity and a following. We are no different.

[The Mantis]

The merger just got a mention on Celebrity Mastermind!