DNA data-base

[Hamish]

What are people's thoughts on potential plans for this? Personally, the very idea makes me sick! Our freedom is steadily being eroded and it has to stop. It is a frightening idea. George Orwell would be turning in his grave. And this would not prevent crime in the slightest - murder, rape etc are not carried out by people making informed decisions and weighing up the pros and cons! If this becomes law I will either, (1) pray Scotland becomes independent and leaves the Union very soon, (2) leave the UK for good. Scary stuff...

[SMEE]

I see what your saying but then again, there is the argument that if you are law abiding citizen, you have nothing to fear. I would like to perhaps see a dedicated section in this site where more serious, thought provoking and wide ranging topics, which maybe go under most peples radar could be debated, as i get the feeling that there are a few of people on here who enjoy a good debate on matters outwith football, like for example....the recent sharia law episode . I would certainly be a regualr visitor

[Kingsmills]

I believe the we have the balance just about right here in Scotland where we retain the DNA on a database of all those convicted of a criminal offence. If an individual is charged with a criminal offence and subsequently aquitted or the matter not proceeded with then their DNA record must be destroyed.

South of the border the position is very different in that the take and retain the DNA of all those charged with or even suspected of a criminal offence which means that they now have a record of almost five million people very many of whom have no criminal record at all. That, I confess, I'm very uncomfortable with.

[Guest TinCanFan]

I'm in two minds about the whole thing.  On the one hand I think similarly to Hamish in the way that this may lead us slowly along the path of an Orwellian state but on the other hand we live in a country the crime rate is high and so is the threat of terrorism and this initiative just shows the times we live in.  Sad but true I know, but sometimes these things have to done unfortunately.

[Heilandee]

On balance i'd be against it as a legal obligation for a compulsory DNA database,however,whilst it is probably true it would do little to prevent crimes it would certainly speed up detection,therefore removing the perpatratrors from further acts, a lot of these sci-fi futureistic films are becoming worringly close to reality as i was just saying to that nice Mr Dread in the pub

[The Mantis]

The crime rate's no high at all TCF, just count Weegieland as part of England. Sorted  :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:

[Hamish]

I see what your saying but then again, there is the argument that if you are law abiding citizen, you have nothing to fear. I would like to perhaps see a dedicated section in this site where more serious, thought provoking and wide ranging topics, which maybe go under most peples radar could be debated, as i get the feeling that there are a few of people on here who enjoy a good debate on matters outwith football, like for example....the recent sharia law episode . I would certainly be a regualr visitor

As law abiding citizens I think we have a lot to fear of a DNA database. For example:

1. The UK government seems to be good at 'misleading' personal information these days (lap-tops, dics etc).

2. A DNA profile is an awful lot more than a fancy fingerprint - it could be used for many other (potentially dubious) purposes.

3. As genetic technology advances in leaps and bounds, acquiring someone's DNA profile could be, in the future, the ultimate identity theft.

4. There is the belief that DNA evidence is unequivocal proof of a crime. This is dangerous. As the techniques get more advanced, less and less genetic material is required to get a DNA profile. Such tiny quantities that it starts to become possible that tiny fragments of your DNA could be detected on people you've never even met. Scary.

5. Sharing your information with other countries/ organisations that may have dubious and prejudiced motives.

6. Most importantly (in my opinion), infringement of your human rights and loss of control/ independence. My body is mine, I decide if I want to donate my organs after death. To not be the owner of the basic code that makes  me me is beyond comprehension in my book.

This aggression will not stand!

[jaggedthistle]

I'm still not sure about this.  In one respect it seems like a great idea - hopefully it would result in criminals actually being caught (only to get a cushy jail sentence probably, but that's another story).  As already mentioned on this thread - the normal law abiding citizen shouldn't have anything to worry about.  I think the idea of an ID card is slightly better than the DNA thing.

However, Hamish you do make some very good points.  ID theft is bad enough these days, my partner has experienced this down in Edinburgh and it ain't pretty.  The thought of someone using your DNA to steal your identity is just frightening.  If the government can lose all the data it has in the last couple of months I would hate for them to lose information related to a DNA database.  THAT'S scary biscuits.

[Guest Bob the dog]

We would not need a DNA data base if the penalties dished out by courts reflected public opinion. :003: eg. Why does a rapist on average only spend 4 years in jail? Castrate all rapists and guess what? the cases of rape would fall. Stop giving violent offenders bail. Bring back the death penalty for murder. Bring in mandatory minimum 25 year jail term for causing death by dangerous driving. Get rid of European Human rights law. Bring back the belt in school. Birch all those who terrorise their neighbourhoods. At the moment those who commit crimes have more rights than the victims. It should be the same as in America, if someone breaks into your house you should not face prosecution for defending your family and property. So get rid of the PC brigade who say it is everybody else's fault that Johnny is a tearaway, sorry it is we Johnny's fault and no one else's if he is a tearaway.

[Hamish]

We would not need a DNA data base if the penalties dished out by courts reflected public opinion. :003: eg. Why does a rapist on average only spend 4 years in jail? Castrate all rapists and guess what? the cases of rape would fall. Stop giving violent offenders bail. Bring back the death penalty for murder. Bring in mandatory minimum 25 year jail term for causing death by dangerous driving. Get rid of European Human rights law. Bring back the belt in school. Birch all those who terrorise their neighbourhoods. At the moment those who commit crimes have more rights than the victims. It should be the same as in America, if someone breaks into your house you should not face prosecution for defending your family and property. So get rid of the PC brigade who say it is everybody else's fault that Johnny is a tearaway, sorry it is we Johnny's fault and no one else's if he is a tearaway.

While we're at it, let's start buring witches at the stake again...  :rolleyes02:

[Guest TinCanFan]

We would not need a DNA data base if the penalties dished out by courts reflected public opinion. :003: eg. Why does a rapist on average only spend 4 years in jail? Castrate all rapists and guess what? the cases of rape would fall. Stop giving violent offenders bail. Bring back the death penalty for murder. Bring in mandatory minimum 25 year jail term for causing death by dangerous driving. Get rid of European Human rights law. Bring back the belt in school. Birch all those who terrorise their neighbourhoods. At the moment those who commit crimes have more rights than the victims. It should be the same as in America, if someone breaks into your house you should not face prosecution for defending your family and property. So get rid of the PC brigade who say it is everybody else's fault that Johnny is a tearaway, sorry it is we Johnny's fault and no one else's if he is a tearaway.

Have you ever thought about moving to Saudi Arabia?

[Kingsmills]

The regime there is probably too liberal for him.

[maimie]

We would not need a DNA data base if the penalties dished out by courts reflected public opinion. :003: eg. Why does a rapist on average only spend 4 years in jail? Castrate all rapists and guess what? the cases of rape would fall. Stop giving violent offenders bail. Bring back the death penalty for murder. Bring in mandatory minimum 25 year jail term for causing death by dangerous driving. Get rid of European Human rights law. Bring back the belt in school. Birch all those who terrorise their neighbourhoods. At the moment those who commit crimes have more rights than the victims. It should be the same as in America, if someone breaks into your house you should not face prosecution for defending your family and property. So get rid of the PC brigade who say it is everybody else's fault that Johnny is a tearaway, sorry it is we Johnny's fault and no one else's if he is a tearaway.

wee johnny's parent/s also have a responsibility....

and what a world we would live in if all the above were to happen...  :007:

[Johnboy]

Well...

Taking one recent case into consideration, I would certainly back Bob the dog, regarding his comment on bail for violent offenders....

[Guest Spectre]

Well I would pose two questions:

(1)  Would a DNA database mean that on average extreme psychos like Wright, Bellfield and Dixie would be stopped sooner or not?

(2) Would a DNA database mean that innocent people would be convicted less often or not?

The answer to both is yes.  Just consider how many offences it is believed these 3 men had committed before they were nailed.

It means "small" infringement of a lot of people's liberties to eliminate a "big" infringement of a few.

I think the real issues for the criminal justice system are:

(1)  The lack of a properly independent forensic and other expert service (I have sympathy for Hamish's point 4).

(2) The investigation methodology of many police - decide who is guilty and target them, ignoring everything else.

(3) The willingness of the courts to allow largely irrelevant prejudicial evidence eg Barry George is a wierd loner therefore he's guilty, Luke Mitchell's mum lied to get him a tatoo therefore he's guilty etc.

With DNA evidence one hopes the police would tend to 'target' the right person.

And one final point.  Dixie's DNA was obtained because he was in a brawl.  So suppose he'd moved to Scotland and carried out a series of horrific rapes and murders.  Some of you are saying an independent Scotland would rather he carried on raping and murdering girls in Scotland, than was nailed as a result of being held on an English database of unconvicted people.

[Kingsmills]

An interesting but over simplified argument. Are you suggesting that we should all have samples of our DNA taken and stored at birth ? George Orwell was pretty close to the mark and only a couple of decades or so out.

[Hamish]

I'm sorry but I don't agree. That's such an emotionally led argument. The reality is that such a small minority of crimes are of this magnitude; the chances of being a victim of such crimes is minuscule. And the majority of murders are solved without the need for a DNA database and very few people ever commit more than one murder. Therefore a DNA data-base would be of no benefit to 99.999% of the population. If you want to save innocent lives, invest the money that would be required to set up this data-base in cancer research or something that will influence more people's lives. I'm not willing to lay down and take it up the arse (metaphorically speaking!) from a government using that sort of emotional blackmail to get a severe infringement on my rights as a citizen passed through law.

[Scotty]

I went to Detroit last year and when entering the US was required to have my fingerprints and a photo taken as part of their Homeland Security regulations (and then to pay for the cost!!). The Canadians travelling with me had no such problems but I think that changes in 2009 when Canadians entering the US and US citizens entering Canada will actually require a passport for land based crossings (already in effect for airports). not sure if they get fingerprinted though !

Initially I thought nothing of it, but after watching one too many episodes of CSI decided I didnt like the idea of my law abiding details being on their systems as we frequently hear of people added to the "no-fly" list by mistake and once you are on that you can literally forget world travel (or getting off the list) !

[edit:Forgot to mention in original post ..... when I emigrated here, over and above the extensive medical examinations to make sure I wasnt diagnosed with or carrying any conditions that would be a burden on the Canadian Health Service, I also had to provide photographs as well as documentation from both the Northern Constabulary, and Disclosure Scotland showing that I had no criminal record. Even a charge of "breach" might have seen my application denied !!! However, I did not have to supply DNA or prints]

Most of us are likely on millions of computer systems worldwide and if required the various governments could pull up just about every detail about us that was needed (or not needed!). Its something we have little choice but to accept if we want things like passports, credit cards, mortgages, cars, or any multitude of other things. However, I am not sure I am entirely comfortable with my fingerprints, photos and DNA existing in some database unless I have actually been convicted of breaking society's laws.

Once you cross that line then fingerprints are obviously on file as is a photo and I have no big problem extending that to DNA which may very well help prove innocence as well as guilt. However, grabbing DNA before you have actually done something is not acceptable and IMHO an infringement of everyone's basic human rights.

Coming back to Canada for a minute - they are currently examining the prospect of "enhanced" driving licenses that can be used in place of passports when crossing the US border from 2009 onwards as many Canadians and US citizens dont actually possess a passport!!! In fact, they have already been launched (as a test) in British Columbia and although they dont draw any attention to it, for this test, the scary part is the reference to "select personal information" ..... http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/200...0121-1-eng.aspx

A lot of this erosion of rights and freedoms is justified by the use of phrases like "post 9-11" or by mentioning "Al-Qaeda" and in some instances like catching habitual offenders, sex offenders, serial killers or thwarting terrorists it may even be desirable but there has to be a line drawn somewhere or the points that Hamish are making could be a lot more valid in the near future than we can ever imagine today.

I would like to perhaps see a dedicated section in this site where more serious, thought provoking and wide ranging topics, which maybe go under most peples radar could be debated, as i get the feeling that there are a few of people on here who enjoy a good debate on matters outwith football, like for example....the recent sharia law episode . I would certainly be a regualr visitor

Interesting idea - We could do that on here but invariably some would complain that we are moving further away from the football related purpose of the site. However, fear not because we actually have something in the pipeline that may satisfy this request. details to follow later !

[Guest Spectre]

Everyone's points are over-simplified and based on emotional arguments!

[Scotty]

Everyone's points are over-simplified and based on emotional arguments!

and your point is ?

[Guest Spectre]

Eh?

My points were clear:

(1)  It's a trade off

(2)  The real concern in my view is not DNA but other aspects of criminal investigations

(3)  It's absurd to suggest you wouldn't want to identify an extreme psycho like Dixie, however the DNA was obtained.

As Hamish says only a very small number of people "benefit", but then the amount of benefit I suggest is very high.

[PullMyFinger]

I agree with Hamish in that I'd rather the money go elsewhere, Pharma R&D, healthcare, education or crime prevention.

I certainly wouldn't like my DNA profile on a database here being checked by a police force on the other side of the planet when I've never even been there. I wonder how many families will be reunited with criminal relatives in the years to come through similarities in their profiles. (I'm probably well off the mark there but it's a thought)