Our Tel

[Scotty]

At the end of the day, the jury is still out on Butcher and like Brewster before him he needs to be given time to show whether he can or cannot do it. 15 games when stuck in a relegation mire with a demoralised squad of players and other issues all around is hardly a fair benchmark.

Butcher's stats are definitely what you could call "average". If you cast aside the two cup games (won 1, lost 1) you are left with 15 games. He won 5, he lost 5, and he drew 5. We scored 15 goals, we conceded 15 goals. Depending on whether you are part of the glass half-full or glass half empty crowd, you could say he didnt lose 2/3 of his games ... or he didnt win 2/3 of his games.

However, if you compare his stats to Brewster who was in charge for 22 games this season, Butcher suddenly looks a bit better than average in comparison ! Brewster's tally was 5 wins, 2 draws and 15 losses with 20 goals scored and 38 against. Using the same half-full, half empty logic .... Brewster didnt lose +22% of his games but didnt win +77% of them !!!

Like many others, I believe that TB and MM need to be given time to work. It is devastating that we were relegated on so many levels and as much as they could and should take some small part of the blame, there is enough of it to be spread around many different people !!!

I hacve said it before, and will likely say it again, but we were not relegated on the last day ..... if we had scored 3 more goals or gained a single more point over the course of the whole season we would still have been in the SPL and you can choose where you want to lay that blame. Brewster lost 15 games and drew 2 .... I am sure we could have gained a point or scored more goals in at least one of those !! Butcher lost 5 and drew 5 ... again, you could argue we could or should have scored a couple more or gained a point in at least one of those games ......

The simple fact is we didnt, and any amount of post-mortems is going to change precisely nothing. We need to get behind the team for next season and be the extra man that drives whatever team Butcher puts together onwards and upwards back to the SPL !

[Scotty]

I have no idea what Butcher will do over the season next year, but I like much of what I saw in his last 15 games and his form over that time (had it been over the whole season) would have secured us a top 6 finish.

agree.

his form is spread evenly between W/L/D .... extrapulated to a full season that amounts to 13/12/13 and could work out at between 49 and 52 pts depending on where you put the "12". Based on this season that is a 5th or 6th place finish !

[TheKnowledge]

I do really hope we go straight back up, and Butcher and his tactics blow division 1 apart and I am 90% behind him, MM and the team. The warning signs are still there though.

[Johnboy]

I hacve said it before, and will likely say it again, but we were not relegated on the last day ..... if we had scored 3 more goals or gained a single more point over the course of the whole season we would still have been in the SPL and you can choose where you want to lay that blame. Brewster lost 15 games and drew 2 .... I am sure we could have gained a point or scored more goals in at least one of those !! Butcher lost 5 and drew 5 ... again, you could argue we could or should have scored a couple more or gained a point in at least one of those games ......

But we knew exactly what we had to do in that last game of the season..... We just needed 1 point... 1 feckin point from Falkirk at home and we were safe.

[TheKnowledge]

I hacve said it before, and will likely say it again, but we were not relegated on the last day ..... if we had scored 3 more goals or gained a single more point over the course of the whole season we would still have been in the SPL and you can choose where you want to lay that blame. Brewster lost 15 games and drew 2 .... I am sure we could have gained a point or scored more goals in at least one of those !! Butcher lost 5 and drew 5 ... again, you could argue we could or should have scored a couple more or gained a point in at least one of those games ......

But we knew exactly what we had to do in that last game of the season..... We just needed 1 point... 1 feckin point from Falkirk at home and we were safe.

I know. I single point.

[Johnboy]

I hacve said it before, and will likely say it again, but we were not relegated on the last day ..... if we had scored 3 more goals or gained a single more point over the course of the whole season we would still have been in the SPL and you can choose where you want to lay that blame. Brewster lost 15 games and drew 2 .... I am sure we could have gained a point or scored more goals in at least one of those !! Butcher lost 5 and drew 5 ... again, you could argue we could or should have scored a couple more or gained a point in at least one of those games ......

But we knew exactly what we had to do in that last game of the season..... We just needed 1 point... 1 feckin point from Falkirk at home and we were safe.

I know. I single point.

Yeap... 1 point.

1 point from the team that was actually bottom of the league.

[CaleyD]

Why are some people totally incapable of seeing that it's what happens over a WHOLE season that counts and not a single result?

[Johnboy]

Why are some people totally incapable of seeing that it's what happens over a WHOLE season that counts and not a single result?

But the way our season panned out as it happened, it did come down to a single result - the last one...

We knew exactly what we had to do in that last game, SPL survival was in our hands, and well within our grasp, but thanks to a couple of bizarre managerial decisions, we completely blew it...

Even if the management could come out now and admit big mistakes were made I could almost forgive them....

But ach.... let's just blame Brewster - that's such a nice easy way out.

[TheKnowledge]

Why are some people totally incapable of seeing that it's what happens over a WHOLE season that counts and not a single result?

That one result was the one game we only had to get one single point from to stay up, thats why. I do appreciate that it is the points total from the whole season but, does that not mean we can thank Craig Brewster for the win against Aberdeen in the first game of the season? That three points kept us in touch with St Miren and Falkirk come the end of the season, he so nearly kept us up.

[Johnboy]

Why are some people totally incapable of seeing that it's what happens over a WHOLE season that counts and not a single result?

That one result was the one game we only had to get one single point from to stay up, thats why. I do appreciate that it is the points total from the whole season but, does that not mean we can thank Craig Brewster for the win against Aberdeen in the first game of the season? That three points kept us in touch with St Miren and Falkirk come the end of the season, he so nearly kept us up.

Yeah but we all hated Brewster, Knowledge...

No doubt when we fail to come straight back into the SPL we'll still be blaming him.

Everbody loves Big Tel.... the man's an absolute legend - bloodied bandages and all that sincerity... He can do no wrong...

C'mon man... Get on the Butcher bandwaggon... we're really going places now alright!

:024:

[Scotty]

yes we knew what we had to do on the last day ...... and we didnt do it. Just like we didnt do it in every single other game we lost (or drew) over the whole season .....

we lost 1-0 to Hamilton in our first home game, we lost 2-1 to St Mirren in the next one .... We conceded 5 at Ibrox and 4 at Falkirk .....not to mention countless other results that you could say "what if" about over the course of the season ... including winning 3pts when it wasnt expected at places like Ibrox or Pittodrie. The bottom line is that a turnaround in ANY game we lost or drew would have kept us up.

Is Butcher to blame for this ... well, YES I suppose he is to the extent that the buck stops with the manager so for any dodgy result in the last 15 games of the season then he has to accept culpability along with the players .... but as I have said before, what he inherited in terms of a demoralised team cast adrift at the bottom of the SPL is not necessarily a good benchmark from where to start so I am prepared to cut him more slack than his predecessor who has to accept responsibility for the 22 games that he oversaw. Add the players to the mix and also the board - who it can and has been argued could have sacked Brewster earlier - and you have a multitude of people we can all point fingers at.

However, no matter how much finger pointing we do, no matter who any of us choose to lay the blame at, no matter how much we moan and groan or bitch and gripe, it will change nothing. Disharmony f***** our season last year, we need to make sure we are all behind the team in the coming season to try and help them get back to the SPL.

[CaleyD]

Just because you keep saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

Facts are, Butcher contributed more to our campaign the Brewster who left the team, and I would even say the majority of the fans, totally demoralised and all but out of the race.

Some may be unable to appreciate that getting us within a baw hair of survival was an achievement in itself, and I guess I just have to accept that.

[Locutus]

Why are some people totally incapable of seeing that it's what happens over a WHOLE season that counts and not a single result?

That one result was the one game we only had to get one single point from to stay up, thats why. I do appreciate that it is the points total from the whole season but, does that not mean we can thank Craig Brewster for the win against Aberdeen in the first game of the season? That three points kept us in touch with St Miren and Falkirk come the end of the season, he so nearly kept us up.

Yeah but we all hated Brewster, Knowledge...

No doubt when we fail to come straight back into the SPL we'll still be blaming him.

Everbody loves Big Tel.... the man's an absolute legend - bloodied bandages and all that sincerity... He can do no wrong...

C'mon man... Get on the Butcher bandwaggon... we're really going places now alright!

:024:

I'm not sure what's worse, a condescending ICT fan, or a condescending fake ICT fan.

All this "We" b*llocks from a man who only attends games when he can scrounge a free ticket really sticks in my throat.

Let's do a deal....I buy you a Pars Season ticket and pay for your travel next season and you go away and stop spouting your nonsense on here?

[Johnboy]

I'm not sure what's worse, a condescending ICT fan, or a condescending fake ICT fan.

All this "We" b*llocks from a man who only attends games when he can scrounge a free ticket really sticks in my throat.

Let's do a deal....I buy you a Pars Season ticket and pay for your travel next season and you go away and stop spouting your nonsense on here?

:024:

Here we go again....

More from the pathetic, inadequate, feckin tube who's never made a sensible post in his feckin life.

[CaleyD]

OK guys, let's not turn this into a personal thing....if you want to exchange handbag blows then do it in private.

[Johnboy]

OK guys, let's not turn this into a personal thing....if you want to exchange handbag blows then do it in private.

I've tried that - he doesn't answer PMs for obvious reasons.

[CaleyD]

That doesn't give you the right to continue it on the forums....you know the rules.

[Locutus]

I'm not sure what's worse, a condescending ICT fan, or a condescending fake ICT fan.

All this "We" b*llocks from a man who only attends games when he can scrounge a free ticket really sticks in my throat.

Let's do a deal....I buy you a Pars Season ticket and pay for your travel next season and you go away and stop spouting your nonsense on here?

:024:

Here we go again....

More from the pathetic, inadequate, feckin tube who's never made a sensible post in his feckin life.

Not denying anything I see Parsboy!!!

[CaleyD]

Just banned you both from the thread - you were warned - can we please now get back on Topic.

[The Mantis]

The sensible argument says you make your luck over a whole season, not over one game.

If you think you have the right to argue that the whole season rested on one game, and that we blew it, then I have the right to say that we never got any luck in that one game. If Ross hadn't gone off, or had gone off later in the game, the chances are it would have ended in a draw.

I'm not arguing for TB and MM as the Messiahs. I am saying if they'd been in place earlier, we'd still be up. I'm giving them a chance to do it with their own players for a season. If we're not challenging for promotion at the end, and if the football is rotten, then time's up. What is there to lose (apart from Motherwell nicking them of course)?

[CaleyP]

I have no idea what Butcher will do over the season next year, but I like much of what I saw in his last 15 games and his form over that time (had it been over the whole season) would have secured us a top 6 finish.

agree.

his form is spread evenly between W/L/D .... extrapulated to a full season that amounts to 13/12/13 and could work out at between 49 and 52 pts depending on where you put the "12". Based on this season that is a 5th or 6th place finish !

the same could have been said for brewster after his first 15 games when he took over from charlie christie who had no wins after 4/5 games. brewster's first 15 games seen him secure 25points, 5 points more than butcher's first 15 games and we didnt finish in the top 6. so i know where your coming from but as you can see it doesn't really work like that.

[The Mantis]

That's because Brew was such a good player it masked what a shyte manager he was. As soon as he stopped playing, we stopped winning.

[WYNESS101]

Did brew get money to spend on players?

I know TB never really had the chance to play around with the money. Dont even know if the club gave him money in january to spend even though he only had a few days left in the transfer market

[Guest WynessLegend]

It's all incidental.

He'll be gone before the season starts.

[Pele_Is_God]

Says who...