Season Ticket Sales

[12th Man]

Although I had a dig at the logistics of the Season tickets I must say that last years gave most value for money, ie watching enjoyable football and after our first game. I am hoping for more of the same this season.

[RiG]

And no, he is NOT a troll, anymore than the persons who accuse him of being one, are. That's abusive!

 

You need to look up what a troll is. Dougal has a habit of posting his opinion, which he is entitled to do so of course, but when challenged on his often far fetched viewpoints he is seldom able to back them up with any shred of evidence whatsoever.

 

I'm still waiting on him telling us why a stadium with only three stands isn't suitable for top flight football in Scotland -

 

Maybe once he's finished gathering the numbers that show everyone that Ross County have sold more season tickets than ICT for two seasons in a row,as he claims, he can get cracking on the stadium issue. I'm not holding my breath though given his general inability to back up any sweeping statement he tries to pass off as a fact.

[bdu98196]

No point any member coming on saying the club isnt doing enough to sell tickets, County do better than us, we want a 'better' matchday experience without anyone posting up suggestions on how this can be improved in a smart, realistic and cost effective manner - not directing comments at one person, or the club or CTJ, but bringing constructive suggestions to the table which CTO can present to the club on behalf of the fans. Not seeing much in the way of this, only people griping and finding fault with what is being done and who is at fault.

[CaleyD]

No point any member coming on saying the club isnt doing enough to sell tickets, County do better than us, we want a 'better' matchday experience without anyone posting up suggestions on how this can be improved in a smart, realistic and cost effective manner - not directing comments at one person, or the club or CTJ, but bringing constructive suggestions to the table which CTO can present to the club on behalf of the fans. Not seeing much in the way of this, only people griping and finding fault with what is being done and who is at fault.

 

You can have all the good ideas in the world, but if you don't have the resource to action them then they are worthless.  On that basis, it would also be good if some of these people were willing to offer a bit of practical hands on assistance as well.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

So what are the numbers? All those I know who have season tickets have renewed.

Still believe though if we keep the football standard up there with the second 45 last Saturday then they will come irrespective of whether holding season tickets or not.

Average home attendance is currently just over 4K. An increase to over 4.5K (12.5% increase) this season would be a good result. Personally I believe 5K should be possible but enticing another 1000 people (25% increase) through the gates every week is a big challenge but is what the club should be (and I believe they are) striving to achieve.

[ictchris]

So what are the numbers? All those I know who have season tickets have renewed.

Still believe though if we keep the football standard up there with the second 45 last Saturday then they will come irrespective of whether holding season tickets or not.

Average home attendance is currently just over 4K. An increase to over 4.5K (12.5% increase) this season would be a good result. Personally I believe 5K should be possible but enticing another 1000 people (25% increase) through the gates every week is a big challenge but is what the club should be (and I believe they are) striving to achieve.

 

Our average crowds for the last ten years

 

03/04 - 2375

04/05 - 4067 (with half of home games being held at Pittodrie)

05/06 - 5061

06/07 - 4879

07/08 - 4753

08/09 - 4457

09/10 - 3509

10/11 - 4526

11/12 - 4023

12/13 - 4038

 

If you look at crowds individually then I think that most of the individual games have pretty similar crowds.  I think that where we have lost crowds is matches against teams like Aberdeen and Hearts.  I remember the first game we played against Aberdeen in Inverness (1-0 loss, Noel Whelan scored for them) and it was a complete sell out, every seat was full.  I went to the 1-1 game last season and our end was significantly empty. There is a constituency of people in Inverness who used to go to 'big' games like derby matches, cup ties against SPL sides or games against the Old Firm and they seem to have drifted away now that these games aren't big anymore and are just normal matches.

[Sir C the 3rd]

I think its because we've become a nation of "you cant do this" and "you can't do that".  German Bundesliga clubs have season tickets that are similar or lower priced than us, match tickets can be bought for 10 - 20 Euro for some games, you can stand, have a beer and a bratwurst and watch some great football with some brilliant young homegrown players.

 

If Germany can do it and most top division clubs get 20,000 plus why is it impossible for it to happen in Scotland?  It does not make any sense whatsoever.  ICT crowds average around 4000, Dortmund is 80,000.  As far as i'm aware their is very little danger or crowd trouble and the atmosphere in some of those German grounds is immense. Now if Dortmund can manage a large proportion of those people standing, whilst having a beer and having a good time, why on earth can we not manage the 1000-2000 people who sit behind the goal at TCS? I know i'd buy one if it was £5 quid a pint and i'd only paid £10-£15 to get in, along with a pie or a bratwurt or something. I'm also sure i just wouldn't have one. 

 

But obviously like everything it seems to come down to the behaviour of Celtic and Rangers fans. Also because of the way people carry on before and after games in public transport due to drinking and etc etc. Which is a shame becasue it doesn't matter about play-offs and rebranding and all the rest, basically its just exactally the same with Celtic boringly trudging along to the title and to be joined by Rangers in 2 years for the same boring procession.  The media claiming its a fantastic fight but in reality its 2 terrible sides in European terms with infintitly more money than any team in the rest of the league.

 

I used to have a season ticket for around 15 years, I still go to the majority of the home games but just not enough to justify my £370 for a season ticket.  But as great as last season was and i'm not saying we ever would but the fact we can't ever win the league sort of puts me off and i think fans of a lot of clubs feel the same.  Even though in Scottish football terms its amazing to finish 3rd or 4th in real terms its not actually winning anything which is a shame. I think thats the real reason crowds in general have slipped away from the game in Scotland.  I see the brave new dawn of SPFL doesn't even have a sponsor! Changes need to happen now and before Rangers get back to the top league, becasue if they do everything will be changed for them and Celtic and their benefit. That really would be the end I think.

[gingerjaggy]

i think as well some clubs are bringing less fans in the away end. Of course we want more home fans but i remember aberdeen and hearts used to sell out they dont now. I believe hearts will sell alot this season so expect more money from that game but i think it is always going to be a slow process to get more in the home ends. The club is just short of 20 years old so we are still young we have risen to the top league of scottish football and i think if more sucess happens like europe qualification or a cup then i think more will come out to find the what the fuss is about. But we should prefer to have proper fans who want to support the club through the good and bad, rain or shine than people being encouraged to come and then turn there back on maybe one poor performance they need to give the the club a chance.

[CaleyD]

I've spoken to a few people who are not renewing season tickets purely on the basis that with so many changes for TV they don't know if they'll get value from them.  They'll still attend as many games as they can and there's every chance the club will get the same amount of money from them (perhaps even a bit more).

 

In saying that, I've spoken to far more who have renewed and some who are getting season tickets for the first time...or returning to get a season ticket after not having one for a season or more.

 

As has been pointed out several times, our attendances as a % of catchment area is actually pretty high...which does leave you wondering what the realistic target should be in the current economy?

 

Another problem is that while it's great to discuss things on forums etc.  those conversations are had among people who, for the most part, are doing all they can to support to the club/team.  These are not the people that need convincing and the challenge is to get talking to and convincing those who are not yet a part of things.  I'm also of the opinion that once a person reaches the age of about 16, if you've not "captured" them as a fan, then it becomes uneconomical to try and convert them.

 

On that basis I think the club are doing the right thing by making it more affordable for the next generation...or for parents to bring along the next generation.  The free season tickets for U12's scheme, getting out into the schools, making free tickets available to them and other youth groups...is the way to go.  It's not going to put any significant additional money in the pot in the near future, but (again, IMO) it is a better investment than discounting etc for older fans.

 

I'd like the U12's scheme to be extended up to the age of U16 as I feel there's a risk of losing future (paying) fans as 12 to 16 is a very influential age and is probably key to breaking any peer pressure that might exist with going off to "support" one of the big teams who's grounds they may never visit in their life.  Get them in the habit of going to games right through to the age of 16 when they might then start earning....have an affordable 16-18 ticket category and then start leading in to adult prices from there up (making allowance for students etc).

 

I say that in full appreciation of the fact that the club appear to have now found a healthy balance with how the club operates financially and that every layer of charging they strip out is essentially money out of their pocket and has to be carefully considered.  With any luck what they are doing now will prove the concept and we pick up a few extra paying adults bringing along kids (for free) and that allows for the idea to be extended.

 

What does anger and frustrate me is "fans" who try to scam the club by cheating on these schemes.  Again, this is something the club has been working on improving over the last 2 or 3 seasons and those who were taking the p*ss (e,g, adults, sometimes groups of adults, with phantom kids buying seats in the family area) are, and continue to be, weeded out.

 

One thing is for certain....there's no quick fix.  There's also only so much that is directly in the clubs control and the SFA/SPFL need to start adopting policies which are designed to help clubs increase crowds, whilst removing policies which hinder.  They also need more by the way of national campaigns and initiatives, using the power of the many instead of just leaving each club to it's own devices with everyone doing something different and no overall master plan.

[FoolPhysio]

If Germany can do it and most top division clubs get 20,000 plus why is it impossible for it to happen in Scotland?  It does not make any sense whatsoever.  ICT crowds average around 4000, Dortmund is 80,000.  As far as i'm aware their is very little danger or crowd trouble and the atmosphere in some of those German grounds is immense.

Population of Germany - 81 million

Population of Scotland - 5 million.

Population of Dortmond - 580,000

Population of Inverness - 72,000

Does that help make it more sensical for you?

You have compared apples with oranges so while still talking fruit, it just isn't the same thing at all. Even Aberdeen, as the 3rd largest city in Scotland, only has a population of around 250,000, half the size of your comparitor.

Scottish football has declined to a point where there is only one team still in European competition at this early stage in the season, and the attraction so poor that the main signings over the close season for our top division was mainly swaps amongst themselves!

This doesn't counteract a lot of the good points you made in your post, but making comparisons for locations and national cultures that are very different does not bolster your case - quite the opposite in fact.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

FP - valid points but lets look at Sir C's post from the entertainment value (and again I am not referring to just on the pitch). I have watched football in a number of different countries and I can quite safely say if I was given a choice of being able to attend a match anywhere this weekend then other than being at Tannadice I would chose a match in Germany. The overall football experience is a good one (yes they do have problems at some games but what country doesn't) and the bratwurst and beer element (which is part of a bigger footballing experience) is part of that. Personally I think the new stadia that have emerged in Germany although very impressive have slightly lessened the experience (I am still a lover of those vast East European style stadia you used to see on the TV in 1970/80s European ties but I understand why they had to go). Some of these mega stadia (including Dortmund's) have managed to retain standing areas that are used for specified games. As CD has pointed out the major change(s) will not be made by an individual club - although yes there are things that they can do - the major changes will have to be made by the authorities (and visionaries?) who run our national game. Now that is a big ask.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tichy_Blacks_Back

[Rainbow]

Some facts about the German stadia:

 

Standing is allowed in all national matches. Bundesliga as well as Cup matches. There are standing areas for away support, too. All those areas are so-called safe standing areas which can be turned into seating areas for international matches within a few hours.

Beer is alcohol free in the stadium. This rule applies down to the 3rd tier. So this is no real difference to SPFL. The advantage of Germany is that we have so many breweries and beer variations. When I attended Stirling Uni in 1998, there was no alcohol free beer available at all there.

 

FP, 80,000 from 580,00 is close to 14%. 4,000 from 72,000 is just 5.6%. Also, Dortmund has an average of 1% empty places per match, while ICT have close to 45%. Two figures where ICT has still room to improve.

[Sir C the 3rd]

FP,  you've misunderstood what i'm saying, which can happen on an internet forum so let me make it more sensical for you. Obviously i'm not saying we can grow our crowds to 80,000.  I'm saying that if the authorities in Dortmund can manage 80,000 crowds (even Hoffenheim who i believe are a village team get larger crowds than us) standing and having a drink then why do we have such a big problem handling 4,000?   What i'm getting at is really, there are solutions to help the atmosphere and the experience of going to a game much much more enjoyable.  But sadly in the UK there are much more worrying social problems attached to following the German (much better!) model.

[Rainbow]

Correct. Hoffenheim is a village with about 4,000 people. But it is part of the town of Sinsheim which has about 35,000 people and is about half-way (35 miles each) between the 100,000+ towns Heilbronn and Heidelberg who have no professional football at all. So their crowds come from a pretty well-populated area. Of course, the traditional clubs Stuttgart and Karlsruhe are only 60 miles away, but everyone in the Kraichgau area hates those cities and would support Bayern Munich ahead of those teams. The other thing about Germany is that pay-TV is still not very widely accepted while everyone in the UK seems to have a subscription to Sky. Add the fact that at Hoffenheim you pay about £26 for a main stand ticket and £20 for the goal end seats, excluding the various concessions, for most matches (except Bayern Munich, Stuttgart, Dortmund) which I believe is the same as at TCS but a modern arena with lots of comfort and a slightly higher standard of footie and it is no surprise that they have their stadium 90% full on average.

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

 

FP, 80,000 from 580,00 is close to 14%. 4,000 from 72,000 is just 5.6%.

 And at Ross County their average attendance of 4300 is 86% of the population of Dingwall. So I don't think relation of crowd sizes to the population of the host community is particularly accurate or revealing. Similarly Rangers' and Celtic's combined gate is knocking on towards 15% of the population of the city, although much of their support comes from far beyond - including Ireland.

However I would agree that a club based in a city the size of Inverness should be getting bigger attendances. The reasons for this under achievement are probably many - some of them relating to Scottish football as a whole while others are more locally focused.

However the big one for me is the one which affects all non-Old Firm clubs in Scotland and that is that a league with a population base of just 5.3 million has two clubs which - for religious, political and (I use the next word fairly loosely!!) cultural reasons -  have supports and suck in resources which far outweigh their actual significance as football teams.

That is the fundamental problem with Scottish football in an era when the amount of money you can get into the coffers is so much more important than in previous days. Rangers and Celtic suck in so much of Scottish football's wealth that, in the modern era, there is little scope left for other teams to do very much. Like it or not, one of the main factors determining the nature of Scottish football is Irish religion and politics.

And in terms of the Old Firm factor, Inverness is no different with its busloads of locals heading off to Ibrox and Parkhead on a Saturday and many more who still support these teams from afar so are lost to their local club.

There are, of course, other factors - including simply "something" about Inverness which I have never understood or even had a decent handle on despite being born and bred.

 

Edited August 10, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Scarlet Pimple]

The factor probably is a sense of isolation and independence borne out of the knowledge that being quite far North in the U.K.  they will never be taken that seriously or even helped to any great extent by their southern neighbors. Relative remoteness develops sturdy and self-reliant independence like nothing else. e.g. Eskimo or, as they say in Northern Canada, the INUIT nation.

 

Imagine Kirkwall having an SPL team and trying to make ends meet? I think that probably for any foreseeable future the football buck will now stop at Dingwall as far as any expansion is concerned.

 

Which means that us northerners will always be reluctant to identify too closely with any one entity or team, even the home team.

"Wha's like us? " has never resonated so well as in Inverness , the capital of the Highlands!

 

Also, most football teams in the U.K.are related to, or based in,  larger cities with a more concentrated population so don't need such a wide catchment area as Caley Thistle perhaps.

 

Any thoughts on this ?

[davie]

I scratch my head at the reasons for this. There's no doubt that the team deserve a bigger, more vocal support at home games in response to the standards that they are currently delivering and perhaps what gets me most is wondering how much better they might be in reacting to a greater support. I know that there's this "highland reserve" to be overcome, but it can be - look at Johndo. I know there's an old firm allegiance borne of generations for god knows how many murky reasons, but if we attract them young enough, ahead of that stuff they will be back. That's where we need to concentrate, and if you want evidence come to next weeks kids kick around for evidence. There's also a feeling that Inverness struggles a bit with its identity - its subsumed into a "highland" definition (being only city, capital etc) which Dingwall isnt. As Charles says (or doesn't) is that RC's season tickets (based on demographics) share is 86% of the population of Dingwall. Really? Perhaps Caley D might enlighten us at some point about just where these ST holders are at County, and you know our support might just hold up under the scrutiny. We are playing a long term game here, County are not.

[ictchris]

 

There are, of course, other factors - including simply "something" about Inverness which I have never understood or even had a decent handle on despite being born and bred.

 

 

I think that some people in Inverness have an inferiority complex.  People look at us and think 'it's only Caley' and that Rangers and Celtic are 'real' football.  It comes from the legacy of not having a league club and of having Highland League teams that people supported alongside their 'big' team.  I think some people in the Highlands have an attitude that 'we don't do things like that' here - we can't have Nandos at the retail park, we don't have people singing and getting passionate at the football. 

 

It is changing though, when we were in the First Division we had averages of 1500 people there every week and zero atmosphere.  There are also a generation of fans for whom we are an SPL team and always have been, which makes a difference.

[Scarlet Pimple]

So, really, you are hinting at Inverness being a kind of backwater -- like Sleepy Hollow ?

 

I think all the things mentioned are contributing factors and it's a nice place to live, albeit sometimes too cold for my liking, so maybe the inhabitants  are just a bit too  laid back and content with their lot  or something..

 

Anyway, do the Dingwallian statistics include babies ("the population of Dingwall" ) by any chance?

 

Whatever, they will always unavoidably remain Ding-A-Lings..

[+DoofersDad]

Those clubs that attract a good crowd in proportion to their catchment area tend to be those where there is a tradition of folk going to the football and this has been passed down from father to son.  Football becomes an important part of the local culture and sucks in incomers as well.  It is so much harder to attract big crowds where there is not that tradition behind you, particularly when many of the older generation in particular have developed a strong allegiance to one of the traditional "big clubs".  Attracting new regular supporters is also much harder these days when there are so many competing attractions and even when the youngsters like football, they can follow big teams regularly on the box.

 

It is really hard to attract new fans but as ICTChris says, things are changing.  I think we are seeing more younger supporters coming in and being more vocal.  This needs to be sustained in order to develop real loyalty amongst the new fans and it seems to me that the club is going the right way about this.  The type of football being played is exciting and I think will increasingly make people realise that you don't need to go elsewhere to see a top club. 

 

But what we have to remember is that things go in cycles and whilst there is good reason to be confident that this will be a good season - possibly yet again our best ever, we are sure to take a tumble again before too long.  The test will be how much the gates drop then rather than how much they may rise to with 2 or 3 really good seasons.

[Ronaldo]

What concerns and slightly worries me that TB is clearly not impressed with the crowds we get in spite of all he has done here to produce a good and improved product on the pitch.

 

Could be a factor in his future options........... 

[rocky1]

Ronaldo is correct the Rangers recent link is a worry

[+bughtmaster]

I believe Terry wants to be here a long time yet, he is a fighter and will not give up easily in his attempts to bring in the crowds.

What a wonderful start to the season we are having and people are missing a lot of entertaining football for whatever reasons they have.

Times have changed, at one time football was very much the in thing, even the Welfare league got good crowds turning up. Caley, Clach and Thistle all had a good following. Prices were relatively cheap and the standards pretty good. Above all football was enjoyable for the supporters, there was tension yes but not the aggressive tension that there can be today.

Some how the majority of locals got out of the football habit, Maybe it was the merger, in as much as from going from affordable football that saw there teams competing at the top of the H L to dearer football where they believed in a typical Highland attitude of We are not up to that and looked for other hobbies to follow.

Just a thought!!

[Huisdean]

Perhaps one of the biggest factors in attracting decent numbers of fans back is actual competition. Many fans realsie their team will not win the league so for them, they don't see any point in attending. Many years ago, the majority of fans would attend no matter what but with so many other attractions these days, this could account for a large chunk of fans and maybe explain why, when we had a successful season, still no upturn in crowds.

[ictchris]

Perhaps one of the biggest factors in attracting decent numbers of fans back is actual competition. Many fans realsie their team will not win the league so for them, they don't see any point in attending. Many years ago, the majority of fans would attend no matter what but with so many other attractions these days, this could account for a large chunk of fans and maybe explain why, when we had a successful season, still no upturn in crowds.

 

That's been the case since we got into the SPL.  Our crowds in every SPL season have been much higher than when we were in the lower leagues and had a chance of winning the title just about every season.