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Should Hughes be SACKED?


Guest Mahonio

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Personally I thought we were back to our usual fast paced, direct style of play tonight rather than the slower, short passing game that was on show in recent fixtures.   Maybe Hughes was trolling us

I'll have you know that Yogi lets me pick the team every week.

Brill is actually well on the way to rivalling or bettering the amount of clean sheets in a season at 20 (a record currently held by Ryan at 23) This doesn't tally with the current hand-wringing about

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It really depends on what the Board are looking fer. They gave him a long contract and they are evidently going to await the outcome of next season. That I am afraid is the bottom line and why I am emphasising that there - hopefully - is a lot of experimenting going on. I fer one really hope that we do not sneak into Europe as that could feck us up from the off.

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Kingsmills: why not in the sack Hughes camp then?

 

I couldn't fathom why he was appointed in the first place. He has an utterly uninspiring CV and, in my view is unconvincing in what he says and is certainly unconvincing in what he's done.

 

However, the fact is, like it or not, he was given a two and a year contract very recently and I believe that, having backed their man,the board now have a moral obligation, to give him at least next season to try to prove himself.

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How many of the top six managers are likely to get the sack then ?

 

Another request to cancel this  thread please!

 

How many other top six managers have overseen such a rapid decline in their team's fortunes ?

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Kingsmills you must be the No1 negative poster on the site these days, I'm pretty surprised you are so anti-yogi when you consider your hero was Jim Leishman

Yogi is here for the entirety of his contract in the boards eyes that's why he was offered a long term contract, I very much doubt we could afford to sack him at present even if it was justifiable

Sad thing is Yogi and Russell possibly read this site and it certainly doesn't send out a very nice welcome to Inverness to either of them

Butcher saw the start of the decline that's why he bailed out and now Yogi has had to pick up the pieces so the least he deserves is some time and that would be a year in my opinion

Anyway Brora can win the title at Keith next week Mahonio

Dougal

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For those who are interested, this is what the table would look like  where ICT if the season started on 4 December, when Yogi was appointed.

 

1. Celtic 49 (18 games)

2. Aberdeen 36 (17 games)

3. Motherwell 32 (16 games)

4. Dundee Utd 31 (18 games)

5. St Johnstone 24 (18 games)

6. Kilmarnock 24 (18 games)

7. ICT 21 (18 games)

8. Ross County 20 (19 games)

9. Hibernian 18 (18 games)

10. Partick 17 (18 games)

11. St. Mirren 13 (19 games)

12. Hearts 12 (17 games)

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That league table isn't quite as bad as I would have expected it to look based on the way we are playing, but the 1.17 points per game we've "achieved" under Hughes is still a full point per game less than before he arrived.

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That league table isn't quite as bad as I would have expected it to look based on the way we are playing, but the 1.17 points per game we've "achieved" under Hughes is still a full point per game less than before he arrived.

Agreed,  Not actually as bad as i first thought.  It just shows how good we were playing before that. 

 

It shows the obvious gulf between Celtic, then Aberdeen Motherwell and Dundee Utd.  After that its not that different and i'd imagine it to always be like this.

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For those who are interested, this is what the table would look like  where ICT if the season started on 4 December, when Yogi was appointed.

 

1. Celtic 49 (18 games)

2. Aberdeen 36 (17 games)

3. Motherwell 32 (16 games)

4. Dundee Utd 31 (18 games)

5. St Johnstone 24 (18 games)

6. Kilmarnock 24 (18 games)

7. ICT 21 (18 games)

8. Ross County 20 (19 games)

9. Hibernian 18 (18 games)

10. Partick 17 (18 games)

11. St. Mirren 13 (19 games)

12. Hearts 12 (17 games)

 I bet that has shocked a few people tbh. I think County are percieved as being on a better run than us by some?

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Another comparisson. Looking at our last 10 games this season we've Won 3 Drawn 3 and lost 4. For the ten games at the same time last season we'd won 3 drawn 4 and lost 3. These are league games only. Not really much difference. Lets just see how the run in over the final 7 games compares. Last season was 2 wins 1 draw and 4 losses.

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As I've mentioned previously, I can see Hughes and ICT being a really good potential match, but unfortunately more and more I just don't see it falling into place.

I hope we are proved wrong.

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I note that Hughes said that he subbed Mckay because he was absolutely shattered. I'd wager that he was so exhausted because of the limited support he is now getting and all the extra work that he is having to do to chase aimless balls thumped over his head and hold the ball up before his team mates get anywhere near him to support him. It's no coincidence that as Hughes tinkered with the formation and style of play the goals for Mckay have dried up. Four goals in all competitions since January compared to seventeen before.

 

But he's still been getting chances, just missing a lot of sitters. It could be single game fatigue or accumulated season fatigue in which case he needs a rest. Alas we are short on good alternatives.

 

Another comparisson. Looking at our last 10 games this season we've Won 3 Drawn 3 and lost 4. For the ten games at the same time last season we'd won 3 drawn 4 and lost 3. These are league games only. Not really much difference. Lets just see how the run in over the final 7 games compares. Last season was 2 wins 1 draw and 4 losses.

I've already made this point. In our 5 after the split last season we won once and lost the other 4. We were pretty dismal from January onwards. Had we kept up our previous form we would have stayed in a European spot, but we suffered post January blues under Butcher.

I do accept I'm not for this current over playing the ball. I do like passing football but it needs to be balanced and variable football. That works best and is the most enjoyable to watch. Old school United, Liverpool. Can pass it and play quick, counter attacking football. Its good to watch, and I'm an Everton fan watching the team play the best football in years saying that.

I can't quite work out why people are still saying we should have pulled out all the stops to get Hartley. He's hardly the messiah. It's not like he is a great manager with a proven record either. Did well at Alloa - That's it. Means nothing.

As to whether he'd have done better than Yogi is debatable. It's possible but by no means a certainty.

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The 'Did well at Alloa - That's it. Means nothing' comment has moved me to post!

 

Steve Paterson guided us from League Two to the Championship! Although it took longer, Paterson's rightly viewed as a messiah by most fans, including me.

 

Paul Hartley took over a relegated, unfashionable part-time team, in Alloa, and guided them instantly from League Two to League One. His mandate there (League One) was to initially 'keep them up'. But no, instead, Paul guided them to promotion! A hot property who was ripe for us to pick up.

 

Hartley's now on the verge of successive promotions from League Two to League One to the Championship to the Premiership. Nobody can realistically doubt the man has been able to adapt seamlessly at every level of management he's encountered thus far.

 

We were in the right place at the right time to get him. The geographical location would not have been a problem. Folk in football know that moving location is part of the 'job' and a sacrifice they have to make. Total smokescreen.

 

Huge opportunity missed. There were also many better suited candidates for the post.

Sadly, It'll only get worse before it gets better. But he (Hughes) won't be going anywhere - we're stuck with him. I can see us returning to our 'natural level' and fighting relegation next season. We should, in most probability, be a yo-yo club, but have managed to punch-above-our-weight for the most part through shrewd managerial appointments - of which, our latest, is not one.

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Another comparisson. Looking at our last 10 games this season we've Won 3 Drawn 3 and lost 4. For the ten games at the same time last season we'd won 3 drawn 4 and lost 3. These are league games only. Not really much difference. Lets just see how the run in over the final 7 games compares. Last season was 2 wins 1 draw and 4 losses.

 

IMO even if we do better between now and the end of the season, the downturn since Hughes arrived should not be swept under the carpet, unless you believe saying 'at least we were not THAT bad' is considered good enough?

 

Besides, all comparisons with last season are only fair if you think we did as well as we could've possibly done and that Terry Butcher was still the right man for the job post Barnsley ****-up.  Do you think last years run-in is the level we should be aiming for or do you think we are capable of more?

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Another comparisson. Looking at our last 10 games this season we've Won 3 Drawn 3 and lost 4. For the ten games at the same time last season we'd won 3 drawn 4 and lost 3. These are league games only. Not really much difference. Lets just see how the run in over the final 7 games compares. Last season was 2 wins 1 draw and 4 losses.

 

IMO even if we do better between now and the end of the season, the downturn since Hughes arrived should not be swept under the carpet, unless you believe saying 'at least we were not THAT bad' is considered good enough?

 

Besides, all comparisons with last season are only fair if you think we did as well as we could've possibly done and that Terry Butcher was still the right man for the job post Barnsley cock-up.  Do you think last years run-in is the level we should be aiming for or do you think we are capable of more?

 

I think we have surpassed last seasons success. We are still top six and we reached a cup final. That has to be seen as a better season than last considering there are only three or four teams in this league that could be construed as being on a level with us. The others are way superior in their financial ability to attract a better squad of players.

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I still find it absolutely bizarre that despite the "high quality of candidates" (the chairman's words, not mine) we went for John Hughes, a man not even mentioned in the running, until days before he was appointed.  What I find even more bizarre, is the man who came second....you know, the man we'd have offered the job to had Hughes turned it down for some reason.  Out of the shortlist of six, five names leaked out prior to the appointment, one did not.  That man, the one whose name didn't leak, was who came second.  That man was Paul Telfer.....I repeat PAUL TELFER!  A man who came second for the job of the club then in two cups and second in the league and whose only coaching experience is as player/coach of Sutton United, a team in the sixth tier of English football!

 

There's a good interview with Brian Clough where he says that when he was being interviewed for managers jobs, it was clear that the people interviewing him, hadn't a clue about the game.  Is that one of our problems?  I think I'm right in saying that most of the board have more of a background in shinty than they do football.

 

We went for the cheap option, it's as simple as that.  Essentially everyone wanted Hartley to some degree and if he wasn't most people's first or second choice, he was their third.  Hughes I highly doubt came up on hardly anyone's lists - he certainly wasn't on mine and I didn't even consider him getting the job at any point whatsoever.  I re-iterate what I said - he was cheap.  Telfer probably would have been cheap as well.  Hartley interviewed very well (his own words quoting the chairman), but wanted to bring a couple of his own staff with him, along with having to pay compensation to Alloa.  For what it's worth, he did want the job, he did not pull-out, we turned him down, he was willing to move and this was story about not wanting to leave his son in Hamilton was quite simply not true.  Ryan Esson getting a new dual role I think also shows that they didn't want to part with too much cash.

 

Anyway, now we're stuck with Hughes and the fact our goals have dried up, should come as no surprise.  His Falkirk side did not score goals.  His Livingston side did not score goals.  His Hartlepool side did not score goals and in fact went at one point eight games without scoring.  It's no coincidence that we've stopped scoring as well and that's with one of the league's most deadly strikers up-front.  Hughes doesn't have to abandon his philosophy, he just needs to be a little more direct (direct, not long ball) and encourage the team to pass the ball forward and get it into positions to score.  Keeping the ball for the sake of it and then passing it back to the keeper for the inevitable hoof up the park when the defence have kept it for so long that they've drawn pressure onto themselves, is of no use to us whatsoever and certainly does not conjugate "good football".  I think a few small changes like that, could lead to Hughes being a successful manager for us.  Whether he'll do that or not though, is another matter. 

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I see comparisons have featured prominently in many of the recent posts.

 

Try this one.   Since Rooney went to Aberdeen, he has scored 8 goals in 12 league and cup games (strike rate of 66% in goals per game). Plus he scored a penalty in the cup final shoot out.  In the same period Mckay has scored 3 out of 15 (33%). Plus he missed a penalty in the shoot out.  

 

I'm not suggesting that this proves Rooney is a better striker than Mckay, but it is clear that Mckay's lack of form in the past few weeks/months, for whatever reason, coupled with some horrendous defensive and goalkeeping errors in many games (Celtic and both Dundee Utd spring to mind), are one reason why we have slipped down the league. Whereas Aberdeen have flourished in this period, aided by Rooney's good form.

 

Maybe one could lay some of the blame for Mckay's poor form at Yogi's door for tinkering with team formation etc causing him lack of service.  But not all of it. Mckay still gets chances (at least 3 good chances in last couple of games). He just misses more of them.  I think he needed a rest some weeks ago. 

 

Nor can Yogi be expected to take all of the blame for the school boy defensive errors. That must be down to the players.  Unless they are so demoralised since Yogi arrived that they have totally lost confidence in him and themselves.  But I doubt that is the case. 

 

I just hope Yogi and his assistants  can now prove their managerial skills, by lifting players and refuel their enthusiasm  for the last few games of the season, so that we might at least achieve our highest points tally, even if Europe is out of the equation.

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Nor can Yogi be expected to take all of the blame for the school boy defensive errors. That must be down to the players.  Unless they are so demoralised since Yogi arrived that they have totally lost confidence in him and themselves.  But I doubt that is the case.

Don't need to be demoralised.  It's down to tactics.

Before Yogi: 2 central defenders + 2 defensive midfielders + a commitment to getting the ball up to wingers quicly.

After Yogi: 2 central defenders + varying amounts of central midfielders + defenders encouraged to tippy-tap.

 

Our defenders are more Alex McLeish than Alan Hansen.  Wholehearted but not skillful passers.

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The 'Did well at Alloa - That's it. Means nothing' comment has moved me to post!

 

Steve Paterson guided us from League Two to the Championship! Although it took longer, Paterson's rightly viewed as a messiah by most fans, including me.

 

Paul Hartley took over a relegated, unfashionable part-time team, in Alloa, and guided them instantly from League Two to League One. His mandate there (League One) was to initially 'keep them up'. But no, instead, Paul guided them to promotion! A hot property who was ripe for us to pick up.

 

Hartley's now on the verge of successive promotions from League Two to League One to the Championship to the Premiership. Nobody can realistically doubt the man has been able to adapt seamlessly at every level of management he's encountered thus far.

 

We were in the right place at the right time to get him. The geographical location would not have been a problem. Folk in football know that moving location is part of the 'job' and a sacrifice they have to make. Total smokescreen.

 

Huge opportunity missed. There were also many better suited candidates for the post.

Sadly, It'll only get worse before it gets better. But he (Hughes) won't be going anywhere - we're stuck with him. I can see us returning to our 'natural level' and fighting relegation next season. We should, in most probability, be a yo-yo club, but have managed to punch-above-our-weight for the most part through shrewd managerial appointments - of which, our latest, is not one.

Bringing up Steve Paterson is more of a counter argument as to why a manager soaring through the divisions in a short amount of time doesn't guarantee success. Steve Paterson, as far as the history books outside of Inverness will be concerned, was a flop at Aberdeen after having done so well previously. Loads of teams have leapt through the 4th tier to 2nd. And not all with money.

I'd hardly say Hartley deserves all the credit for Dundee being in the running for promotion. The team was already assembled and he's not changed much in an uncompetitive league. His team have scored 8 goals in 9, LESS than Hughes goal per game ratio. They've slipped of the top spot. and play leaders Hamilton away next. I wouldn't put it past Falkirk going past them too

In which case Hartley will have done just as badly at Dundee as Hughes at ICT in, arguably, an easier job.

Hughes wasn't my 1st choice either. I was a little underwhelmed by the appointment. I think when a team is doing well results wise, coming in, even if you try not to change too much, it's difficult to keep the momentum going. I would have probably have taken Hartley at the time, due to his record. But would know that it would come with risks as he'd no top level management experience and is a bit weird. If it hadn't worked out (or as is now even) I very much guarantee many of the Hughes naysayers would be asking if Hartley should be sacked, that he hadn't enough experience at the top level. I have no doubt that'd be the case.

I'm a bit sick of Hughes cliches myself. Good good honest hard working boys blah blah... I was perhaps a little spoiled with TBs anecdotes in the last few years.

HOWEVER, I don't think it's been a disaster by any means, yes we've stuttered. Stalled a little. But I'm much of the opinion there was always a fairly high risk of that due to a small limited squad, with a lot of important games in a short space of time which have caught up with them.

And because of this I'd like Hughes to be given a little longer to bed methods in before deciding he has to go, even if he wasn't the popular choice.

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