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The General Election 2015 Thread


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You seem a bit confused yourself. What Nicola Sturgeon is saying is that if the Scottish People don't want another referendum then they simply need to use the ballot box to prevent any party having a mandate to do so.It is not in the hands of the politicians but the electorate.That is democracy. What authority do you or anyone else have to dictate what future electoral candidates have in their manifestos?

You have missed the point that it is the politicians who put the promise of a referendum in their manifesto in the first place.  For Sturgeon to simply say that it is in the hands of the people is pathetic.  Charles also makes the entirely valid point that people choose to vote for a party because on balance they like their manifesto better than the others.  It does not mean that they support every suggestion that is in there.

 

You ask me what authority do I or anyone else have to dictate what future electoral candidates have in their manifestos?  The answer to that is simply a respect for the democratic will of the people and the expectation the leaders of the SNP will behave with some semblance of honour.  It really is important to acknowledge the fundamental difference between a major constitutional referendum policy within a manifesto and routine policy proposal such as on taxation for example.

 

If the Tories put up tax in one Parliament, Labour can cut them again next time round.  But if Scotland becomes independent after a referendum, that is not something that can be reversed in the next parliament, or the one after that if we decide we don't like it.  It is for ever.  Surely before we take such an irrevocable step we should be satisfied that there is a consistent desire of a majority of the population for the change.  That is important because if we don't have that then there is a serious risk that the people could be left with a political structure they don't want.  Bear in mind that for the entire period of democracy in Scotland there has never been a majority of the population voting for a parties who support independence nor has there ever been popular opinion expressed through opinion polls to indicate that even a small majority of the people want independence.

 

The Scottish people were given the opportunity to vote for independence and voted against it.  That outcome was consistent with all of our previous democratic history.  The reason why it is important that referenda such as this are no more frequent than once in a generation is that to do otherwise would be a betrayal of that democratic history.  If we have referendum after referendum every five years then maybe one time the vote will be in favour.  We would then become an Independent nation for the indefinite future despite the fact that the people of Scotland have never previously wanted it and may possibly live to regret it for the rest of days.  That would be an absolute preposterous abuse of democracy. 

 

This General Election should not be about independence but we in Scotland all know it is the unspoken elephant in the room.  Alex Salmond, to his credit, referred to the referendum as a once in a generation opportunity, but Sturgeon seems to take a different view and is not ruling out a further referendum in the next Holyrood Parliament.  If that is what she intends then that will need negotiation with the Prime Minister elected in this General Election and we can all imagine the backroom negotiations around that.  With a further referendum on the radar it is clear that issues such as social justice will be dropping down the list of priorities of the SNP MPs in the new parliament. 

 

Sturgeon is talking rubbish when she says a referendum is a matter for the people.  It is first and foremost up to Ms Sturgeon to respect the referendum result.  Yes, I know she says she does but actions speak louder than words.  For the reasons I give above, she needs to say that there will not be another referendum for at least 10 and preferably more years.  Only once she has done that can we get back to a full focus on the things that really matter to the people.

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Again the reports are inaccurate. Two well known individuals who have made a habit of following Jim Murphy and rudely and very vocally disrupting his meetings who were until yesterday among the 114,00

Achtung! I actually find it hilarious listening to to the British nationalists continually bleating about the referendum, which they won FFS, and how it's all the SNP are interested in. It goes s

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I get it you do not think independence is a good idea and it does not have your personal backing. I think independence is a fine idea and, having thoroughly researched the matter, think it also makes sound economic sense especially in the medium and long term. I get that you have a contrasting view in that regard too.

 

 

However, that was last year's argument and it is not the SNP or it's supporters making that argument at this election but the unionists such as yourself, The SNP have said time and time again that they accept the democratic will of the people and have not once made independence an issue.

 

The issues are the economy, welfare, job creation, social justice, defence spending and a whole raft of issues. A significant number of people like what the SNP are doing and saying on these issues that is why the are doing rather well in the opinion polls and if we wake up on the 8th of May with a significantly larger SNP group of MPs in a hung parliament we will be not a step closer to independence but we might just be that much the better for it in the UK as a whole and without the lunacy of the prospect of wanting to leave the largest free trade area on the planet driven by the xenophobia of a man in an Arthur Daley coat who with a distaste for all foreigners including the subsidy junkey Jocks who's only elected representative in this country thinks it's fair game to make fun a Scottish cabinet minister because of his name and skin colour..

 

I've answered the point about the independence issue in my post above but it is worth simply reiterating that it is simply not enough for the SNP to say they accept the democratic will of the people in the referendum vote, they need to demonstrate that they accept it by saying there will not be another referendum for some considerable time. 

 

I'm not entirely sure what point you are making about UKIP but I appreciate the sensitivities the SNP have around UKIP because of the way UKIP have highlighted inconsistencies  in the SNP position.  On the one hand the SNP seem to be opposed to a referendum over Europe, which is a bit rich when the last one was 40 years ago, and yet the SNP are not ruling out a further independence referendum in the next Holyrood Parliament despite the fact we only had the last one a few months ago.

 

The SNP supports EU membership and you state that the prospect of wanting to leave the largest free trade area on the planet would be lunacy.  But yet the SNP want Scotland to be independent from the UK when Scotland trades more with the rest of the UK than the rest of the EU put together.

 

After 40 years I have no problem with the concept of having a further referendum - indeed I would welcome it as a resounding endorsement of our partnership in Europe might well see the demise of UKIP.

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From some of the arguments being advanced one gets the impression that just over half the population think that just under half the population are naive, woad painted, claymore rattling, gullible idiots rather than intelligent reflective people who have a rational considered contrary view.

You don't have to spend very long in the classrooms of Scotland to realise that probably around a third of the population just don't have the intellectual wherewithal to have the remotest scooby about even basic political issues, be they relate to the referendum, a Scottish election or a general election. That may sound harsh, but it's an evolutionary reality for which there are many parallels and, once seen, can very easily be believed.

There is a lot to be gained by any party who can persuade this sector of the population that they will gain most out of voting for them. The Tories to some extent achieved this, albeit not totally, in the Thatcher era. Before that, this was a significant factor in the Atlee landslide of 1945 which, by the election of 1950, had shrunk to a marginal majority which only lasted until the following year when the Tories did the trick for the next 13.

A demographic analysis of the referendum vote and of the Scottish vote in this forthcoming general election could therefore be revealing.

Like a few on here, those pupils weren't listening to you either Charles. Lol

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If the Tories put up tax in one Parliament, Labour can cut them again next time round.  But if Scotland becomes independent after a referendum, that is not something that can be reversed in the next parliament, or the one after that if we decide we don't like it.  It is for ever.  Surely before we take such an irrevocable step we should be satisfied that there is a consistent desire of a majority of the population for the change. 

 

And there's another inconsistency. The separatists seem to think that only a yes vote is forever whereas if it's a no vote, then they can just come back for another go until they get what they want. DD is 100% correct to say that an irrevocable step should only be taken on the basis of a CONSISTENT desire for it, whereas the way these referenda work is that you just have to get lucky and con enough people with unfulfillable promises once and you have changed things at least for a very long time.

It is, however, interesting that this thread on a general election should keep coming back to what we should be entitled to expect is the dead, decided and totally wrapped up issue of the referendum. I would suggest that the reason for that is the currently advantageous position in the General Election campaign in Scotland of a party for whom that election is simply a means towards a totally separate end of achieving something which can only be realised through another referendum (or two, or three, or four.....)

A vote for the SNP at this election is not a vote for how you believe defence, foreign policy, immigration, welfare etc should be run. It is a vote for a group whose only interest is in a single and totally unrelated issue.

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Achtung! I actually find it hilarious listening to to the British nationalists continually bleating about the referendum, which they won FFS, and how it's all the SNP are interested in.

It goes some way in explaining the mentality of UK Labours northern branch and the contempt to which many in Scotland now hold for them. When Scotland was promised change, told we were valued in the UK, and voted to remain in this "family of nations", was it somewhere in the small print that we weren't then allowed to vote SNP?

In a democracy, are campaigners and political parties required to abandon their views, stop making their case and go away?

In the face of a barrage of UK propaganda and almost complete media opposition, 9 out of every 20 people in Scotland voted Yes, many in the hope of charting a different path to the one offered by centuries of London rule. The simple fact of the matter is that the issue of Independence will never be "put to bed" as the British nationalists would wish. Scotland is moving forward, democracy will be heard, and if the UK fails us it will likely be what leads us to the next referendum, through a majority voting for it at Holyrood. The SNP, or any unionist party, have no right whatsoever to rule out any referendum, for any period of time, except the term they may be elected to at Holyrood.

That said, I haven't seen many Yes supporters advocating another referendum soon, nor does the SNP. If it's even going in their 2016 Scottish election manifesto is itself debatable just now. They will off course always seek to bring new powers to Holyrood. But all this only suits the Labour GE15 rhetoric.

The fact is, for the general election, Labour and the Tories have ruled out full fiscal autonomy for Scotland. So why the hell are they still talking about it?... Because they are crapping it at the thought of Scotland actually having a voice in Westminster. As irony meters explode, some are even calling this undemocratic. And still these same people scratch their heads as to why we'd vote SNP.

What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e. More austerity, more cuts, a decrease to the Scottish block grant and a further squeeze on public services and pressure on those that can least afford it. But still, 100 billion is spunked on renewing trident. 50 billion on HS2. Big business dodge tax while the benefits of the poor and disabled are targeted. The piece de resistance for me, paedophile sex offenders are protected by the official secrets act. I'll give as much of that a miss as I can if you don't mind.

The SNP, Greens and Plaid are offering the option for to push an alternative, progressive path with the influence that a strong voice in Westminster will give in a hung parliament. And Westminster needs that voice to ensure Scotland gets all that was promised to it and protection from the rest.

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What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e.

Yup... I know.... the choice between Labour, Tory and Libdems is a bit like choosing between Measles, Mumps and Chicken Pox.

 

But none of them is quite in the same league as getting the (Yellow and) Black Death.

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What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e.

Yup... I know.... the choice between Labour, Tory and Libdems is a bit like choosing between Measles, Mumps and Chicken Pox.

 

But none of them is quite in the same league as getting the (Yellow and) Black Death.

Er, ok. Thanks for your input.

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What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e.

Yup... I know.... the choice between Labour, Tory and Libdems is a bit like choosing between Measles, Mumps and Chicken Pox.

 

But none of them is quite in the same league as getting the (Yellow and) Black Death.

Er, ok. Thanks for your input.

 

One option open to people but rarely used deliberately, is to spoil your ballot paper.  In that way you make the effort to participate in the election but don't feel obliged to give your vote for any candidate.  Years ago when I was an election agent in a Westminster election, the returning officer showed the agents a ballot paper in which the "voter" had used a marker pen to put a big black cross over whole framework of the candidates' names and had then clearly written below "I hereby exercise my democratic right not to vote for any of these t*ssers".  Wasn't you, by any chance, Charles?

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What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e.

Yup... I know.... the choice between Labour, Tory and Libdems is a bit like choosing between Measles, Mumps and Chicken Pox.

 

But none of them is quite in the same league as getting the (Yellow and) Black Death.

Er, ok. Thanks for your input.

One option open to people but rarely used deliberately, is to spoil your ballot paper.  In that way you make the effort to participate in the election but don't feel obliged to give your vote for any candidate.  Years ago when I was an election agent in a Westminster election, the returning officer showed the agents a ballot paper in which the "voter" had used a marker pen to put a big black cross over whole framework of the candidates' names and had then clearly written below "I hereby exercise my democratic right not to vote for any of these t*ssers".  Wasn't you, by any chance, Charles?

Great idea. I suggest both you and Charles do that and really prove a point.

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One option open to people but rarely used deliberately, is to spoil your ballot paper.  In that way you make the effort to participate in the election but don't feel obliged to give your vote for any candidate.  Years ago when I was an election agent in a Westminster election, the returning officer showed the agents a ballot paper in which the "voter" had used a marker pen to put a big black cross over whole framework of the candidates' names and had then clearly written below "I hereby exercise my democratic right not to vote for any of these t*ssers".  Wasn't you, by any chance, Charles?

 

I can remember my mother writing "Knickers to them all" on the ballot paper.

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One option open to people but rarely used deliberately, is to spoil your ballot paper.  In that way you make the effort to participate in the election but don't feel obliged to give your vote for any candidate.  Years ago when I was an election agent in a Westminster election, the returning officer showed the agents a ballot paper in which the "voter" had used a marker pen to put a big black cross over whole framework of the candidates' names and had then clearly written below "I hereby exercise my democratic right not to vote for any of these t*ssers".  Wasn't you, by any chance, Charles?

 

Now you are putting ideas into my head! But maybe this is becoming quite a common practice. After all, did 44.7% of voters not "spoil" their ballot papers back in September? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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After voting for forty years I can't ever remember Scotland being on the national news so much before an election I wonder why :wink:

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The only thing CB will be s(p)oiling will be his underpants as the SNP romp home on May 7th.   :scotland:

It is pretty clear it is going to be a landslide for the SNP in Scotland but will they beat the achievement of the Tories in 1955 when they got just over 50% of the popular vote?  In that election the Tory vote was higher in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. It just goes to show how volatile the views of the electorate are.  I just hope there is nothing too volatile coming from CB's underpants on the 7th.

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What the London based unionist parties are offering is three similar shades of Sh**e.

Yup... I know.... the choice between Labour, Tory and Libdems is a bit like choosing between Measles, Mumps and Chicken Pox.

 

But none of them is quite in the same league as getting the (Yellow and) Black Death.

Er, ok. Thanks for your input. One option open to people but rarely used deliberately, is to spoil your ballot paper.  In that way you make the effort to participate in the election but don't feel obliged to give your vote for any candidate.  Years ago when I was an election agent in a Westminster election, the returning officer showed the agents a ballot paper in which the "voter" had used a marker pen to put a big black cross over whole framework of the candidates' names and had then clearly written below "I hereby exercise my democratic right not to vote for any of these t*ssers".  Wasn't you, by any chance, Charles?

Great idea. I suggest both you and Charles do that and really prove a point.

 

Im just suggesting that because I am a democrat and feel that everyone should be free to express their views even if they have no preference for any of the candidates.  I will be proving a point a point by not spoiling my paper.

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The only thing CB will be s(p)oiling will be his underpants as the SNP romp home on May 7th.   :scotland:

It is pretty clear it is going to be a landslide for the SNP in Scotland but will they beat the achievement of the Tories in 1955 when they got just over 50% of the popular vote?  In that election the Tory vote was higher in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. It just goes to show how volatile the views of the electorate are.  I just hope there is nothing too volatile coming from CB's underpants on the 7th.

 

It is far from clear that the SNP will enjoy a landslide in Scotland. Project fear may be negative and utterly disingenuous but never underestimate how effective it can be. The SNP are certainly not counting any chickens...

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The only thing CB will be s(p)oiling will be his underpants as the SNP romp home on May 7th.   :scotland:

It is pretty clear it is going to be a landslide for the SNP in Scotland but will they beat the achievement of the Tories in 1955 when they got just over 50% of the popular vote?  In that election the Tory vote was higher in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. It just goes to show how volatile the views of the electorate are.  I just hope there is nothing too volatile coming from CB's underpants on the 7th.

 

Not at all. The outcome of the Scottish part of this general election has been  pretty obvious for some time and is merely the latest instalment of what DD correctly identifies as the volatility of the electorate and will hence, like everything else, pass fairly quickly. Even since the war, the 1945 General Election saw a massive drift of support towards Labour who had a landslide. By 1950 that had been hugely reduced to the extent that Atlee's second administration only lasted until 1951 at which point the Tories got back in again. And, as DD again correctly states, just 10 years after the Labour landslide, Anthony Eden's Tories in 1955 won comprehensively enough to poll over 50% in Scotland.... where they are now totally anonymous.

The SNP had an upward blip in the early 70s, but by 1979 that had also almost disappeared as the Tories came back into favour for 18 years in advance of another hefty swing towards (New) Labour in 1997.

Consequently, the current flavour of the month which is the SNP will definitely prevail on May 7th, but will also disperse pretty quickly - especially since this single issue group's support has largely been gained from the completely unrelated populist agenda which it has latched on to after that was abandoned by one of its rivals. However until recently, and unlike most political leanings, one view has been very consistent indeed among the Scottish electorate and still remains the majority view  - that they didn't want to separate from the rest of the UK. The only period where that has been supported by more than about a third of the electorate is the one which only began very recently with polling evidence since the mid-summer of last year and the referendum 44.7.

So, against all that party political volatility of the last 70 years, the one issue which has enjoyed unbroken continuity of support is the desire for the UK to stick together.

Consequently, had it gone to yes last September, the future of Scotland would have been changed forever on the basis of a temporary political blip fuelled by unusual one off circumstances. This will also evaporate as fast as it has materialised as Joe and Josephine Public find other flavours of the month to occupy their political attention.

Now, on the subject of the current General Election, let me give you the campaign's emerging hero.... one Piers Doughty-Brown. :clapoverhead:  :clapoverhead:  :clapoverhead:

So who is Piers? Head Boy's Fag at one of England's posher public schools? Alan B'stard's latest dim room mate? The Conservative candidate for Brokenshire West?

Wrong, wrong and wrong! :lol:

Piers Doughty - hyphen - Brown is reportedly a radical activist for those champions of the Proletariat the Scottish National Party who specialises in harrassing and intimidating other parties' candidates in an election campaign which, like the referendum before it, is becoming more and more notorious for the strong arm tactics of SNP hit squads.

On which subject, maybe there are indeed some political phenomena which never change....

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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SNP at 52% in the latest poll.  :smile:  :scotland:  :scotland:

You might as well enjoy it while you have it because the history of politics tells us it ain't going to last all that long.

 

It is true that, as with other parties and causes, support for the SNP and for independence ebbs and flows but what is also fact is that with every cycle of ebb and flow both the high water mark and the low watermark gets higher every time.

 

The Unionists Canutes will ultimately be overwhelmed by the tide. The only question is when....

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The Unionists Canutes will ultimately be overwhelmed by the tide.

 

 

You missed a great opportunity to use that particular king's true name, which was actually Cnut!

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