Butcher & Malpas

[dougal]

I'm bitterly dissapointed not because of the result as United were the better team but it was the way we lost, I lost count how many hoof up the parks were played tonight by Tokely and Munro

There was very little football played on the deck, there was no passion and to be honest very little if any entertainment

Our home performances have been nothing short of an embarrassment this season and I now really have doubts about our management duo and the tactics they seem to be deploying

I am in no way calling for their heads(not yet anyway) in this thread but I believe its about time they tried something new tactic wise because if they don't they are going to see dramatic reductions in attendance at the Caledonian Stadium for the remainder of the season

I shudder to think where we would be if we hadn't had such a good start and picked up all the points we got on the road

C'mon Terry & Mo i'm afraid what we are having to endure from November time isn't good enough

dougal

[PullMyFinger]

Why can't posters give red dots to ignored users?

Oh well

unignore

red dot

ignore

[Pele_Is_God]

Wouldn't be surprised if Butcher is at Ibrox next season as part of Mccoist's management team, which would leave us with Malpas. I shudder to think of the possibilites....

[ict247]

This thread just sums up SOME of the posters on this forum...absolutely pathetic.

[TopSix]

Just what we need - more negativity. So they're heroes when we're winning in the first division, but you're criticising them although we're secure in the first season back in the SPL? We lost to the Scottish Cup holders tonight.

[ict247]

Thanks Top Six Next Year. Thought I was the only one who can see some kind of sense! This sort of crap is why I don't bother posting on here too often!

[PaderbornCaley]

[TopSix]

I was disappointed tonight that we lost. I even toyed with the idea of driving up for it. To come on here and see this thread makes me feel sad. I love going to watch ICT. I like the fact that the players don't get paid ridiculous wages which I subsidise. I respect the manager - he comes across as a gentleman. I think the backroom staff do a tremendous job and go out of their way to help - they'll go an extra mile to help people and make visitors to the stadium feel welcome. There are too many people who expect to be 'entertained'. Are you watching just any game, or are you there to support ICT? Scottish football is part of our culture. ICT are a worthy part of the game and anyone who you speak to who is involved with the game at the highest level have only positive things to say about the club and the way it is run. This negativity is putting a lot of people off posting on here and it's time to take a big reality check.

[Guest Mahonio]

Dougal, i rightly got SLATED for starting a similar thread after League Cup hammering.

I admitted a few weeks or maybe months later, that i was OUT OF ORDER starting the thread, in the heat of the moment, or so i said at the time anyway.

Number 1) Does Butch and Mo instruct the team to "lump the ball", NO

Number 2) They have tried different Tactics, in my eyes anyway, 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 are different, we played 4-2-3-1 before Morton game.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of Tel and Mo resigning or being axed so get used to it boy, they are here for the foreseeable future and good for them, they are greatest management team we have had, BAR NONE.

Take heed, Dougal, i know what i am talking about, as i said, i have been in the same position as you but was man enough to admit i got it wrong and am glad i did.

.

[Renegade]

I actually happen to think that the OP makes a valid point. The long ball is garbage and I do happen to think that it is a trait that Butcher does seem to favour. At Coventry, Butcher was fired with a FA Cup Replay still to play, and due apparently to Butcher's fondness of the long ball, it was an easier decision to boot him. Sydney FC was much the same thing. Gone were the sharp brown suits, passing-based football and A League title of Pierre Littbarski, and in was the training suited, punt-it-up-park football of Terry Butcher. The Sydney trophy cabinet was also noticeably empty that season.

Like many others on this forum, I've been to more games in my life than I can think of and I will categorically say that ICT are unquestionably a better side when the ball is on the deck. Look at the facts. ICT are an attacking side, who have always benefited from using the width of the pitch to get the ball wide. It's no coincidence that ICT's greatest ever manager - Steve Paterson - made his success using ultra-attacking football. It's also no coincidence that ICT's worst two managers, Sergie Baltacha and Craig Brewster, failed with ICT, while using a defensive, long ball system in the process. It's also interesting to note that season, Terry Butcher's ICT only began their road to success, when a more attacking approach was taken. When ICT defend they lose, when they attack, they win. ICT should aim to attack - that's a fact.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Renegade

[Scotty]

This sort of crap is why I don't bother posting on here too often!

This negativity is putting a lot of people off posting on here and it's time to take a big reality check.

For what its worth ... and to answer the question posed in the original post, NO, I do not believe they have taken us as far as they can. They were heroes last season and for most of this season so far ..... so we have lost a few games, and the manner in which we have lost may not be pleasant but its way too early for this Brewsteresque shoe-waving rhetoric.

However, I am not going to give the OP a red dot as its a valid topic on a valid subject and although I disagree with the content, the post itself is a valid opinion and question.

Where I do take issue though is the comments I quoted above !!! This is something that has been thrown at me (or more specifically the site) for the past seventeen years !!! "Ach I dont go there,its full of neggy b******s", "Nahh, too many folk who are quick to criticise", "cant be a**** getting into an argument", "I hate you, you fat b******" (oops, that last one wasnt meant to get in there !!!! just a little bit of self-deprecating humour so you know I am not offended, just frustrated at the usual excuses !!!)

My answer now is the same as it has been for each and every one of those seventeen years ..... If you dont post because of the negativity (or crap), do you not think it somewhat hypocritical to post negativity about the site itself ? I always tell people the same thing ..... if you want it to be full of more positive posts, and you have a positive attitude, then instead of bitching and moaning about the perceived negativity of the site, come in and contribute rather than reading the posts and being negative about the site yourself. There is plenty of room for a multitude of opinions be they positive, negative or somewhat neutral .... some of us can actually hold a reasoned debate and even respect opinions we may not necessarily agree with ... and hell, you can even choose to be anonymous and hide behind a pseudonym if you want !

[Scarlet Pimple]

Renegade--when you consider the fact that the majority of the points were obtained away from home by ICT, your post is somewhat ironic is it not?

During these away games Caley Thistle basically played a more defensive role, according to the reports that I read anyway, then very often hit on the break did they not?

The goals came because the team had players, like Hayes, who drove forward into the defence of the opposition with speed and skill and determination. But the team did not apparently always attack throughout the game and their defensive formation and tactics played a very significant part in their victories.

As you know I favour attack rather than defence but I realise that injuries can upset the team, the positional play and the rhythm of their game so we had better not say too much at this stage when the team is going through a bad spell of injuries and the pain of some depressing defeats.

[starchief]

Having either Gillet or Shinnie back would help in the LB position Munro is getting slated for. Presumably Golly's just not got it anymore for Munro to have to get back there. Can't blame Butcher for that. How many players can we have for one position?

We don't have a top six central midfielder. They're difficult to find. Duncan, Cox, Duff, Ross, Sanchez, Blumanshtein - all bottom six/SFL1, in my opinion (some hope for Ross mind you). Butcher's fault? I don't see how. I'm sure he'd love one. It's been the missing piece of the jigsaw since Black left, but where could we find a ready made replacement for no fee and low wages? Get one in and it's a game changer.

Tactics. Well, I think there might be something in there. 4-2-3-1 was so successful away from home because it's a counter-attacking style. That's also what made it so bad at home, when we were more likely to attack/dominate. I'd be in favour of having a home and away system. It seems we pretty much have one system for all, then change that wholesale for another.

I don't agree that Butcher was dismissed from Coventry for the long-ball. I think it was more political, with Ron Atkinson (a big cheese then) giving his interest. The club then invested a lot of money (Butcher IIRC made a profit) for not a lot of results. Sure, they played a more attacking style but spent the money on players that could do that, plus ended up no better off (in fact, worse off).

At the end up, if we finish one better than any of Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd or Motherwell, then ICT have far exceeded my expectations for this season. I see Killie (flying high I know), St Mirren, St J and Accies as our mini-league. Finishing anywhere in the top 3 of that is a good season for a newly promoted club.

[bdu98196]

Since last season we havent revolutionised the squad, TB took us from D1 back into the SPL and now has us in the QF of a national cup and with a 'fighting' although fading chance of the fabled Top 6. If thats not moving us forward from when he took over and we bottom of the SPL, what is peoples expactations?

As for is it as far as he can go, if we get top 6 and win the cup - then realistically I'd say yes in tems of achievements, but there is still scope to develop the squad and younger players, improve our football style and move forward in teh future. Fact is we will never win the SPL, we will be lucky to ever get top 4 and into Europe so focus has to be cup wins and consolodation into a solid financially stable club who can nurture talent and play attractive football.

TB needs some funds to invest in the summer, strengthen then see how we progress next season - if we perform better then he is still good for the club, if we are worse then this time next year people can consider calling for change?

[AJS]

Dougal sparking more controversy i see.

Last night was a terrible display for all, no question of that but from looking at the team last i thought one problem was the fact that most players seemed to be running on empty. Hayes looked done after about half an hour, which is no suprise given that he was supposed to still be out, Ross looked fatigued when he came on, Doran only lasted about 20 minutes before hobbling off and Foran looked in desprate need of a break.

Several months on and 3 more signings added and we still can't seem to get ahead in terms of using a full team, in fact we haven't been able to name a full team all season i think.

Not using it as an excuse but we are a small squad at the best of times and difficult games in quick succession can't be easy for us just now. We put so much in to the beginning of the season and i think unfortunately the energy levels have dropped simply becuase the same players have had to be used constantly.

We are not the greatest side in the league and we've clearly set ourselves in good stead to survive which was the priority at the start of the season, just now teams like Hibs, Midden, etc are in desprate need of the points to pull away from the dropzone, something we don't have to worry about (just now anyway). All im saying is we are a bottom 6 club and i think we just have to accept that for this season. Who knows we may get a shot next season again.

[KingBeastie]

These type of threads were always going to come up when our amazing start to the season cooled off.

If we were in the same league position and had this many points but had gained them in a slow and steady manner rather than lots at the start and very little lately I doubt we'd be having this discussion at all.

We are in a good, if not better than good position for who we are. TB and MM have done a very, very good job since they came in. All of these set backs and trials will only help them improve and get better as a management team. So to question the management teams abilities or plant the seeds of 'The management must go' rubbish is just that... rubbish.

I think Doran was a very good signing for us in January and with the many injuries we have had we have coped pretty well considering, some credit to TB and MM here surely.

As for this talk of "when we attack we win", I have to disagree, so many points we gained away from home were gained by defending well and attacking on the break. I think that our biggest problem is that we don't seem to know how best to play at home. Many of our home crowd are w@nkers expect us to attack and entertain at home, we are just not good enough to take many of the other SPL teams apart like this and I feel we just don't quite know how we should play. For what little it's worth I believe that we don't use the width of our home pitch to our full advantage but what would I know, I'm not a manager, nor have I ever played at any level worth any merit, I am merely a (biased) fan.

Let's not start all this "The management don't know what they are doing" rubbish as it is just rubbish and if you disagree then just who do you think would do a better job?

Edited March 2, 2011 by KingBeastie

[tm4tj]

Dougal has expressed an opinion and for what it's worth, I agree with him in the main.

We are playing very poorly and I don't buy all the missing players bit. Yes, we have guys out, but we are not the only team that suffers from this. Last night we looked like a highland league side out of our depth. Terrible to watch and second to every ball, with no hope of changing the pattern with the players we had on the bench. Does that make the OP wrong. No it makes it 100% correct.

If you don't like the post, debate it, don't just call it crap and walk away.

[kencar]

Having either Gillet or Shinnie back would help in the LB position Munro is getting slated for. Presumably Golly's just not got it anymore for Munro to have to get back there. Can't blame Butcher for that. How many players can we have for one position?

I can't be the only one who thinks our squad structure is odd. We have no designated right back, 4 central defenders and 3 left backs one of which sits on the bench whilst a centre half plays in his position!!

IF Golly is past it why's he still at the club? Of course it's not just Golly, players like McBain & Blumenshtein have contributed nothing this season and even when fully fit in the midst of an injury crisis aren't used. There is no room for sentiment in football and with a limited budget how can we afford passengers?

[starchief]

We might not have a regular RB, but Tokely, Proctor, Duff and, when he was at Leicester, Cox can all play that position. Merits can be debated but I can't say it's a problem position. Certainly no worse than van Zanten at StM or Hay at Killie, for instance.

Golly and McBain though...

Not too sure what's going on there. Obvious players for the problem LB position, so dunno why they're not being played. Maybe they're on a lower wage than would be expected but the Board thinks their experience is vital to bringing on youngsters. Almost P/T coaches I guess. Pure speculation mind you.

[Yngwie]

Both might be surplus to requirement these days, but they have contracts that have to be honoured and there wasn't a queue of teams wanting to sign them in January. McBain was going to go to Brechin according to some people, but got injured and it fell through.

[davie]

Good for you Dougal. as a fisherman you display consistent skills but some of your logic is a bit lax. Only TB and MM can say if they have gone as far as they can, and I expect the answer would be no. That there are flaws at the moment is undeniable and I think that we are seeing the last drops being squeezed out of this squad. Changes are required next year, or we will be in big trouble. Some of the options are pooer at the moment, but what are the alternatives? At least some above are recognising that some people are past it, some were never SPL standard in the first place and some have undoubtaed potential to get much better. That's football!

[CaleyD]

The league table doesn't lie and it says we are sitting 7th. You'd have been laughed at before the season started (and some were) for suggesting we'd be in with a fighting chance of a top 6 this year, yet that's where we've been parked out until last night.

Whilst home fans may be feeling a little short changed by the fact we've achieved that with our performances on the road, I don't think the situation merits the suggestion that Butcher and Malpas have done all they are capable of doing at ICT.

[big man]

It would be very difficult to turn the side into a passing side. To begin with they would have to learn how to pass, although they seem to be more than able to pass it to the other side.

Dundee showed last night what passing is all about its movement pass, then look for space to give the person with the ball options.

We have a bit to go yet.

[Renegade]

Renegade--when you consider the fact that the majority of the points were obtained away from home by ICT, your post is somewhat ironic is it not?

During these away games Caley Thistle basically played a more defensive role, according to the reports that I read anyway, then very often hit on the break did they not?

The goals came because the team had players, like Hayes, who drove forward into the defence of the opposition with speed and skill and determination. But the team did not apparently always attack throughout the game and their defensive formation and tactics played a very significant part in their victories.

As you know I favour attack rather than defence but I realise that injuries can upset the team, the positional play and the rhythm of their game so we had better not say too much at this stage when the team is going through a bad spell of injuries and the pain of some depressing defeats.

While that is true, the best counter attacking sides have attacking qualities in-bedded in that style, in ICT's case - fast wingers. Just because it worked away, doesn't mean it'll work at home (it clearly doesn't!) and even though ICT won using the counter attack away, it was still fairly passing based, not just big hoofs up to no-one. The counter-attack and the long ball has it's place in the game, just not at the Caley Park.

[caleyrule]

With games in hand etc we are probaly going to be 10th, yes at the start of the seadon we would have been happy with 11th but things change in football, and looking at butcher after last night its a man lacking ideas, even in the press he admitted it, i always say the signs of a struggling manager is one who keeps changing his team, this aint happened yet but i can see it coming, if hamilton start getting wins we COULD be in trouble, yes they are a long way behind but seriously any sign of us picking up points?

look at how players at the start of the season to now, nick ross? is he even the same player? tokely attitude is back, rooney come on he is becoming a joke now, odhiambo dont even get me started,

we are not in trouble yet, butcher job aint under threat yet, but football is a funny game so nobody knows what will happen