CJT Statement on Acceptable Behaviour

[CaleyD]

Representatives of Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC, Northern Constabulary and Caley Jags Together held an amicable and productive meeting today (Tuesday) to discuss the implications of the statement released prior to the scheduled fixture in January with regard to offensive chanting.

 

Full Statement can be found by clicking here

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

So will we get lifted for singing "gypsy ba$tards " ?

[GMD]

Massive bit about the use of language, tiny wee mention about smoke bombs etc.

 

Can understand the point that nobody in the cold hard north takes any notice of the banter during the "el kessocko" but our lowland friends may take offence to some of our move vocal supporters chanting/banter.

[gordieict]

Massive bit about the use of language, tiny wee mention about smoke bombs etc.

 

.

 

Possibly because people might have had doubts about what language they can use, no one should have any doubts about the use of smoke bombs. 

[bdu98196]

our lowland friends may take offence to some of our move vocal supporters chanting/banter.

 

Think a lot of them have their own 'banter' mush of it significantly more offensive than ours, but we have to endure it and done so for years along with a lot of the rest of Scotland/Scottish football without much action being take.

 

Look at last wknd when an official club statement was issued during a game about the 'banter/chanting', yet the offending club strangely only had 2 persons arrested. 

[CaleyD]

So will we get lifted for singing "gypsy ba$tards " ?

 

It's phrases of that ilk which the police want fans to avoid as they might be construed by those not familiar with the local banter/rivalry as "hate related".

 

Not an unreasonable request (in my personal opinion).

 

Massive bit about the use of language, tiny wee mention about smoke bombs etc.

 

Can understand the point that nobody in the cold hard north takes any notice of the banter during the "el kessocko" but our lowland friends may take offence to some of our move vocal supporters chanting/banter.

 

As gordie says...the discussions with the police were primarily to seek clarification on what exactly the issue was surrounding certain songs/chants.  Hopefully we've done that and can answer any further questions which might arise....as well as having a working relationship with the police that allows us to deal with such things more efficiently and pro-actively in future.

 

The law on "pyrotechnics" is clear and there should be no uncertainty in the fact that they are a banned item.  Our discussions on this were fairly brief....police asked us to remind fans of the law and we agreed.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

So will we get lifted for singing "gypsy ba$tards " ?

 

It's phrases of that ilk which the police want fans to avoid as they might be construed by those not familiar with the local banter/rivalry as "hate related".

 

Not an unreasonable request (in my personal opinion).

 

>Massive bit about the use of language, tiny wee mention about smoke bombs etc.

 

Can understand the point that nobody in the cold hard north takes any notice of the banter during the "el kessocko" but our lowland friends may take offence to some of our move vocal supporters chanting/banter.

 

As gordie says...the discussions with the police were primarily to seek clarification on what exactly the issue was surrounding certain songs/chants.  Hopefully we've done that and can answer any further questions which might arise....as well as having a working relationship with the police that allows us to deal with such things more efficiently and pro-actively in future.

 

The law on "pyrotechnics" is clear and there should be no uncertainty in the fact that they are a banned item.  Our discussions on this were fairly brief....police asked us to remind fans of the law and we agreed.

 

 

So did the police say they would arrest anyone for using the phrase " gypsy ba$tard " ?

[CaleyD]

The police are not actively looking to arrest anyone and no "threats" of arresting anyone were made during the meeting.

 

Things went exactly as per the statement we issued.  We raised our concerns and asked our questions, the police explained where the issue lay and outlined the reasons why.

 

Not going to get drawn on providing any list of words as there's always someone (I can be that kind of someone myself) who will then play the "That word wasn't on your list" defence....but PERSONALLY I imagine that you would risk falling foul of the law if you were to be singing/chanting "Gypsy B*stard"

[BornCaley]

Were reps of Ross County Invited to this meeting?

[CaleyD]

No.

[jamie ictfc]

'However, collectively we are mindful of the fact that matches are being broadcast by TV, Radio and online to a wider audience and what is seen as banter by some local rival fans might be viewed very differently by others both attending the match or watching or listening from elsewhere. '

 

Do you think the Old Firm tell their fans to calm down a bit as the games are shown all over the world?

I'm sure most companys mute out as much fan noise as possible anyway so i don't see what difference that makes?
 

this whole thing is so fickle, County fans are laughing at us calling us tinks and were not allowed to call them gypsys?

I'm paying £22 to sit in Dingwall, to be called a tink, and expected to sit on my hands.

 

F**k that for a laugh.

[CaleyD]

Nobody has said the word "Gypsy" is banned....the statement says...

 

Northern Constabulary made it clear that use of “Gypsy” alongside any other word which might, to any reasonable person, portray hatred is unacceptable. 

 

As for the rest of your post....personally, I don't give two hoots what The Rangers might or might not tell their fans ahead of games and I'd rather we had no aspirations to operate or conduct ourselves the way they do in any way, shape or form.

[Rainbow]

The police are not actively looking to arrest anyone and no "threats" of arresting anyone were made during the meeting.

 

Is Northern Constabulary more trustworthy in respect of honesty than German police?

[Council Juice]

If you can't use Gypsy why not just replace it with Pikey instead?

[Oddquine]

If you can't use Gypsy why not just replace it with Pikey instead?

Should think Pikey and Tink/Tinkler would be just as unacceptable as Gypsy and variations of that. 

 

Out of interest, does it take a complaint by a punter, or a TV/Internet watcher, to engender an arrest...or can the police arrest someone just because they (one of the police) hear them, even if nobody objects/takes offence? 

[jamie ictfc]

Nobody has said the word "Gypsy" is banned....the statement says...

 

Northern Constabulary made it clear that use of “Gypsy” alongside any other word which might, to any reasonable person, portray hatred is unacceptable. 

 

As for the rest of your post....personally, I don't give two hoots what The Rangers might or might not tell their fans ahead of games and I'd rather we had no aspirations to operate or conduct ourselves the way they do in any way, shape or form.

 

well im hardly going to call them Gypsy gentlemen.

 

Right, well any rivalry across the world, you do not hear any teams asking their fans to 'be nice'

 

The Northern Constabulary don't know how to manage a big crowd (As shown v Celtic/Rangers) and don't know what to do.

so they have decided we cannot use a word that actually county fans don't care about being called, just like we don't care about being called tinks.

 

The whole thing has been blown out of proportion by some jumped up jobsworth who decided they had nothing else to do with their time.

 

Can you imagine telling any other football supporter around the world that the police are trying to halt you calling your rivals a gypsy ****** because it 'Could' offend others?

[bdu98196]

OddQ - I believe that under the new laws relating to sectarianism the ploice have the powers to arrest if certain phrases, words or songs are envoked in a public place without need for individual complain, not sure regarding other non-sectarian issues although anything referencing a minority or discriminatroy would be unacceptable. I think everyone (well most) know what is and isnt acceptable in society.

 

 

On a lighter note - will there be any issues with the food at Viccy Park? I mean if they serve the pies and burgers what transport will they use to get home?

Edited February 28, 2013 by bdu98196

[CaleyD]

Don't have the papers to hand, but I believe the legislation is worded as "Could cause offence to any reasonable person".

 

Has it been blown out of proportion?  Perhaps...but that's more a sign of the times than any particular desire on the part of the police or the club to stifle banter.  It seems that there's more and more people every day who find more and more things offensive.  The police, as public servants, can only do their job as it is laid out to them and when new legislation comes and things change then they have to act on it.

 

It irks me as much as it does some of you on this thread that the country/world seems to have gone mad in this regard...but there's not much can be done about it.  If we choose to dig our heels in and ignore the advice given, then we can have no complaints if we then have to face the consequences.

 

In the grand scheme of things, what are we being asked to "give up" here?  One line from a song/chant that says "Dirty Gypsy B*stards"....is it really worth making all that much fuss over?  Do we really want to push the limits by trying to come up with alternatives that, in reality, would be just as likely to fall foul of the law?

 

Nobody likes being told they can't do something...certainly not me...but I'm sure we'll find something else to sing/chant instead that gets under their skin even more and which can't be construed as "hateful" by anyone...reasonable thinking or not.

 

The Highlands Are Ours - Forever In Our Shadow - Hello Down There - Pride of the Highlands....all far more effective these days than any Gypsy related banter.

[Alex MacLeod]

I would take offence if people were referring to those who are recognised as Gypsies just as I would if the reference was to Blacks or Asians or Gays or those of a particular religious persuasion but when the term is used against a group of football fans, who are probably not likely to be one of the minority groups then I find it a bit difficult to understand where the crime comes into it. Are they trying to say that if I call CaleyD a Gypsy B, knowing full well that he isn't, can I be prosecuted. Mind you, with his surname, he could be.

[RednBlackComeback]

Oh well I take it it's still ok to sing "The wheels on your house go round and round....." ??  

[CaleyD]

I would take offence if people were referring to those who are recognised as Gypsies just as I would if the reference was to Blacks or Asians or Gays or those of a particular religious persuasion but when the term is used against a group of football fans, who are probably not likely to be one of the minority groups then I find it a bit difficult to understand where the crime comes into it. Are they trying to say that if I call CaleyD a Gypsy B, knowing full well that he isn't, can I be prosecuted. Mind you, with his surname, he could be.

 

That's exactly what the law/legislation says.  Anything you say, type, write etc if heard/viewed by someone who might portray it as a "message of hate" whether aimed at them or not is covered.

[CaleyD]

Oh well I take it it's still ok to sing "The wheels on your house go round and round....." ??  

 

No reason why it wouldn't be allowed.

[Scotty]

Don't have the papers to hand, but I believe the legislation is worded as "Could cause offence to any reasonable person".

 

Has it been blown out of proportion?  Perhaps...but that's more a sign of the times than any particular desire on the part of the police or the club to stifle banter.  It seems that there's more and more people every day who find more and more things offensive.  The police, as public servants, can only do their job as it is laid out to them and when new legislation comes and things change then they have to act on it.

 

"reasonable person" indeed !!! Seems to me the world has gone mad and authorities can and do react to even a single complaint from people who are not actually offended themselves, but are instead offended on behalf of someone else !!! These kinds of folk piss me off no end ... too much time on their hands ! Its not just Northern constabulary, Scotland, UK or even Football in general, it has pervaded every continent - the same happens over here in all walks of life !

 

slightly off topic ... but just announced over here by the NBA (Basketball) and NHL (Ice Hockey) that they will require clubs to wand people going into games just like you would get through security at an airport .... It used to be "random" but as of last night the NBA now requires it for all fans at all games. NHL is still "random, but that will change .... funnily enough, although there are bag checks at BMO field for Toronto FC games, wanding is not and never has been present ... but if the NBA and NHL are doing it, expect it to happen everywhere else in North American sport very soon .. and spreading to other parts of the world too !!! what precipitated this ? NOTHING !!! The NBA commented that "the change in policy is not the result of any specific finding or experience. It is a league mandate, and all 30 teams and venues are required to comply."

 

 

In the grand scheme of things, what are we being asked to "give up" here?  One line from a song/chant that says "Dirty Gypsy B*stards"....is it really worth making all that much fuss over?  Do we really want to push the limits by trying to come up with alternatives that, in reality, would be just as likely to fall foul of the law?

 

Maybe the fans should just highlight the ridiculousness of the suppression of this particular piece of banter by chanting "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP" in place of the above?  ... my alternative to "gypsy" would be nomad !!! A perfectly legal non-derogative term that I used almost every day when encountering rural folk in Morocco last year .... because thats what they are, thats the lifestyle they lead, and thats what they call themselves.

 

Dictionary.com also has a few other synonyms for the noun "gypsy":

definition "Wanderer": Bohemian, nomad, roamer, tzigane, vagrant

definition "Migrant": Drifter, itinerant, nomad, rover, tinker, transient, traveler, vagrant, wanderer

definition "outcast": bum, castaway, hobo, reprobate, tramp, vagabond, vagrant, wretch

 

I would take offence if people were referring to those who are recognised as Gypsies just as I would if the reference was to Blacks or Asians or Gays or those of a particular religious persuasion but when the term is used against a group of football fans, who are probably not likely to be one of the minority groups then I find it a bit difficult to understand where the crime comes into it. Are they trying to say that if I call CaleyD a Gypsy B, knowing full well that he isn't, can I be prosecuted. Mind you, with his surname, he could be.

Its all relative ..... How many reality programmes featuring "gypsy" in the title have been on TV over the last few years ... certainly a few over here at the moment? Are these people offended? no, they associate with the term and are using it as a badge of honour. But if I call someone from Dingwall that name, and they call me a tink, with neither of us getting offended, nor directing at anyone in hatred, just banter, then we both potentially get arrested for hate crimes ......

 

Same with the other groups listed above ... I have friends (and family) who are black, just as I have Asian, South Asian, and gay friends (more commonly now called the "LGBT" community - Lesbian, Gay, Bi, TransGender). My carpool passenger is a Turkish Muslim, and my other carpooler - who moved to Calgary last year - was an Iranian Muslim ... Does it matter? Nope. Everyone I call "friend" is a friend because of who they are, not what label can be applied. Hell, I even have English friends !!!

 

It is common within my circle of friends for those of similar backgrounds to use various terms with each other that I would never dream of using .... The 'N' word is not just used in rap songs, it is also used colloquially between friends (usually males) when both are black. Same with gay guys who often call each other "queer" or "queens" ... The terms don't offend me when they use them to each other, its not directed at me, so no big deal, but I dont use them ... not because I think my friends would be offended, but because it doesnt feel right, or indeed necessary to use them ....  but in terms of football banter then yes, I do think we have become way over sensitive !

 

does the Tartan Army still hate Jimmy Hill ? or has that been banned too ?

[CaleyD]

Don't shoot the feckin messenger!!!

[Yngwie]

Dictionary.com also has a few other synonyms for the noun "gypsy":

definition "Wanderer"

 

He's gonna love that