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I listened to Radio Scotland this morning to Willie Rennie's election pitch where he described the Lib Dem election candidates as Stonking!  I think he has his words mixed up I think he should have said Honking :wink:

No mix up.  It is the SNP candidates which are honking.  Indeed it would seem that even the SNP agree with that assessment as they keep having to rely on someone who isn't even a candidate in this election. :smile: Well it's either that or have one who is presuming to make up Labour's budget for them.

Well someone has to. Labour couldn't find their arse with their hands tied behind their back.

 

Could we please raise the level of the 'debate' a little..

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Again the reports are inaccurate. Two well known individuals who have made a habit of following Jim Murphy and rudely and very vocally disrupting his meetings who were until yesterday among the 114,00

Achtung! I actually find it hilarious listening to to the British nationalists continually bleating about the referendum, which they won FFS, and how it's all the SNP are interested in. It goes s

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I listened to Radio Scotland this morning to Willie Rennie's election pitch where he described the Lib Dem election candidates as Stonking!  I think he has his words mixed up I think he should have said Honking :wink:

No mix up.  It is the SNP candidates which are honking.  Indeed it would seem that even the SNP agree with that assessment as they keep having to rely on someone who isn't even a candidate in this election. :smile: Well it's either that or have one who is presuming to make up Labour's budget for them.

Well someone has to. Labour couldn't find their arse with their hands tied behind their back.

 

If your hands were tied behind your back you wouldn't be able to find your arse either.  But I am quite sure Salmond will help Milliband with a budget which will ruin the country so that he can then turn to the Scottish electorate to claim Scotland would better off on its own.

Of course you can find your bahookey with your hands tied behind you...unless you are so well fed and corpulent that your wrists can't meet at the base of your spine, like what mine do.

 

“But you said …” chorus Scottish people, pointing to a Better Together leaflet that said how much the UK loves us, needs us, and values our contribution to British national life. We’re only doing what they told us they wanted. We’re injecting a dose of Scottish reality into the corridors of Westminster.

It’s just not on you know. This is not what Better Together was all about. Better Together was supposed to mean that Scotland was better for being ruled by Westminster, not that Westminster could be better for having Scotland tell it how to do things. Yet here we are, just over two weeks away from a General Election, and the most interesting thing that’s happening is John Major having a bit of a strop. Now if that’s not rubbish politics I don’t know what is.

 

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/being-scottish-on-purpose/

 

 

DD, which part of the SNP aren't as stupid as Unionist politicians(and supporters) seem to think, are you failing to understand?  The one thing which would kill off Independence quicker than the wink of an eye would be the SNP trashing the UK economy.because, funnily enough, we are still in the UK, therefore ruining the UK economy would also ruin the Scottish one......and if they did it deliberately, as you seem to imply, they'd be dead in the water.   Sheesh!  

 

It could, of course happen inadvertently...in much the same way that George Osborne has failed to meet any of his targets so far, but I'm sure he didn't deliberately set out to fail....just failed to allow for the knock on effects of his policies. Bear in mind, not many MPs are economists....they produce the ideas to achieve their ideologies, and the Treasury implements to order by sticking it into the appropriate computer programme to produce forecasts under various circumstances.  I suspect Osborne started off with the best case scenario in 2010, and it all went downhill from there. . 

 

The SNP are going down to Westminster to try and do what they said they would do in their manifesto......and there as many economists who think that's a better way to go than don't..it's just that the ones that don't are the ones being reported all over the paper promoting fear. Anyway, the remark by Salmond about writing the Labour budget was a joke......as evidenced by the laughter which followed.  OK, so not as good a joke as Ed Milliband,  David Cameron, Nick Clegg or Nigel Farage, but a joke nonetheless.  

 

When they go to Westminster, rather than deliberate spoilers, their mindset is more likely, and sensibly, to be on the lines of........

 

There is a greater prize here because, if it does fall to the SNP to shore up Labour, they can demonstrate to the whole UK – and a wider Europe suspicious of independence – just how astute and adroit they are in playing the government game and producing sensible pro-British policies which in turn will soften English hostility. Understanding of Scotland and our national ambitions can flow from that and potentially ease the path to independence in future. Played well, the SNP bloc can be creator of a Westminster Enlightenment.

http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/04/22/scary-monsters/

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What really gets me about folks logic is that the SNP should not be allowed to influence parliament yet it would be ok for Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservative or even Scottish Green Party were any of them able to convince the voters. Yes SNP is a party for Scotland and yes their remit will always be to achieve an independant Scotland but they are also realists. They also accept the result of last years referendum and, indeed, dont cast it up at every opportunity as everyone else seems to do. The SNP voice in Westminster will fight for the people of Scotland. They will vote in the interests of the people of Scotland and they will lobby on behalf of the people of Scotland. Something that no other party in Scotland is able to do. They have to follow the party whip of their UK offices.

 

It is even suggested that Nicola Sturgeon should not be entertained because she's not standing for election. Sorry but is she not the party leader? Is she not entitled to speak on behalf of her party and be seen to promote her election candidates? I'm sure she has more entitlement than Paddy Ashdown, John Major, Gordon Brown etc. to speak up her people.

 

Its a very sad reflection on the state of this UK that people will vote, or not vote, to try and keep one party out rather than to get the best party in. The SNP want to promote progressive politics. They want to see change to the system of politics. They want to see the demise of Lords and the disarmament of unnecessary nuclear weapons. They want to save and repair the ailing NHS and they want to see people able to earn a living wage. But no thats not good enough. Lets just go against them and cripple our UK. Indeed lets just bankrupt our country and then the Chinese can bale us out in exchange for control of our assets.

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If I could find a bookie to take the bet I'd wager that Alex Salmond will not be the parliamentary leader at next session. I'd reckon that could go to a female. Perhaps Natalie McGarry or Eilidh Whiteford.

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Laurence you are the only one admitting it on here and good luck to you as most others are just Nat bashing!  Ed knows he has no chance to be PM without help but is just not saying it on TV.

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Labour need no deals with the SNP.  All they need from the SNP is for them to keep their word.  The SNP have stated they want to lock the Tories out of Downing Street and that means they need to keep Labour in power.  All they have to do to keep labour in power is to vote with them.  There is no need for deals and the SNP will have plenty opportunity to shape and amend bills through the parliamentary committee and debate stages.

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Some of my thoughts

 

  • Why do people, on here, believe that there has been a massive swing from Labour to the SNP?
  • The media continue to peddle the "Cybernat Trolls" line whilst simultaneously printing absolute dirge and abuse about the SNP (in particular Nicola Sturgeon)
  • The new line of attack recently seems to be about Neil Hay's non-tweets, yet Ian Smarts tweets are completely overlooked (and are infinitely more vile than anything that Neil Hay linked to).
  • The SNPOut nonsense is just hilarious, and seems to have been hijacked by Loyalists in more recent times.
  • Northern Irish politics just makes me sad.
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Can't say I've heard of either of them but irrespective of who nominally gets the job, the mouthpiece (if elected) will be that mega-ego which is Alex Salmond (if he has the spare time after writing Labour's budget for them.)

Perhaps the reason you have not heard of either of these very able and high profile women is that you are blinkered, if not blinded, by your ridiculous prejudices and equally unfounded mantra that Alec Salmond is the SNP

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As the only Labour supporter on this forum

I think Ed is perfectly right

Give the Nats Nowt is what I say

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain why Ed Milliband should treat with disdain a group of left of centre MPs who have been elected to Westminster with precisely the same democratic legitimacy as his own Labour members.

 

Should votes cast in Scotland now have some sort of second class status ? As a committed unionist, I would have thought that you would, quite properly, see that as a threat to the union.

 

You appear to me to be on rather dangerous and illogical territory.

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Can't say I've heard of either of them but irrespective of who nominally gets the job, the mouthpiece (if elected) will be that mega-ego which is Alex Salmond (if he has the spare time after writing Labour's budget for them.)

Perhaps the reason you have not heard of either of these very able and high profile women is that you are blinkered, if not blinded, by your ridiculous prejudices and equally unfounded mantra that Alec Salmond is the SNP

 

I really am not interested enough in the minutiae of the SNP to follow the progress of each and every Party apparatchik. And I am sure there is widespread angst throughout the party that the perception that "Alex Salmond is the SNP" is still being driven more than anyone else by Alex Salmond!

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Some of my thoughts

 

  • Why do people, on here, believe that there has been a massive swing from Labour to the SNP?
  • The media continue to peddle the "Cybernat Trolls" line whilst simultaneously printing absolute dirge and abuse about the SNP (in particular Nicola Sturgeon)
  • The new line of attack recently seems to be about Neil Hay's non-tweets, yet Ian Smarts tweets are completely overlooked (and are infinitely more vile than anything that Neil Hay linked to).
  • The SNPOut nonsense is just hilarious, and seems to have been hijacked by Loyalists in more recent times.
  • Northern Irish politics just makes me sad.

 

I can't agree. Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right. What Neil Hay said was wholly unacceptable for someone seeking election to public office and the fact that others in other parties may have being saying worse makes it no better.

 

In my opinion he ought to have been suspended from the party even if, at this late stage, it left the SNP with no candidate in what is looking like a winnable constituency.

 

I know that Nicola Sturgeon condemned his actions in very strong terms but, in my view, that did not go far enough. I would not want a man holding such views as my parliamentary representative.

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Can't say I've heard of either of them but irrespective of who nominally gets the job, the mouthpiece (if elected) will be that mega-ego which is Alex Salmond (if he has the spare time after writing Labour's budget for them.)

Perhaps the reason you have not heard of either of these very able and high profile women is that you are blinkered, if not blinded, by your ridiculous prejudices and equally unfounded mantra that Alec Salmond is the SNP

 

I really am not interested enough in the minutiae of the SNP to follow the progress of each and every Party apparatchik. And I am sure there is widespread angst throughout the party that the perception that "Alex Salmond is the SNP" is still being driven more than anyone else by Alex Salmond!

 

 

I'm not so sure it is though. During the referendum campaign the press did their best to equate a vote for Independence = a vote for the SNP = a vote for Alex Salmond, whereas the YES Campaign tried their very best to make it known that wasn't the case. The idea of the debates, whilst eventually being Salmond vs Darling was pitted as YES vs NO, again by the media but this was not the case (Salmond was not the leader of the YES Campaign).

 

The media are slowly coming around to this idea that the SNP is more than just Salmond, and I certainly haven't seen any coverage that has suggested that Salmond is trying to peddle the idea that he is the SNP.

 

 

 

Some of my thoughts

 

  • Why do people, on here, believe that there has been a massive swing from Labour to the SNP?
  • The media continue to peddle the "Cybernat Trolls" line whilst simultaneously printing absolute dirge and abuse about the SNP (in particular Nicola Sturgeon)
  • The new line of attack recently seems to be about Neil Hay's non-tweets, yet Ian Smarts tweets are completely overlooked (and are infinitely more vile than anything that Neil Hay linked to).
  • The SNPOut nonsense is just hilarious, and seems to have been hijacked by Loyalists in more recent times.
  • Northern Irish politics just makes me sad.

 

I can't agree. Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right. What Neil Hay said was wholly unacceptable for someone seeking election to public office and the fact that others in other parties may have being saying worse makes it no better.

 

In my opinion he ought to have been suspended from the party even if, at this late stage, it left the SNP with no candidate in what is looking like a winnable constituency.

 

I know that Nicola Sturgeon condemned his actions in very strong terms but, in my view, that did not go far enough. I would not want a man holding such views as my parliamentary representative.

 

 

But he didn't actually say these things. I have also seen nowhere that has proved this account was run by him as well.

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Quite amusing that he says Westminster is “is an attraction to the vile and greedy” given that Salmond has chosen to go there!

 

Also amusing that Hay had a job helping wealthy individuals to avoid tax, and the SNP's defence of this is that it's OK because he was rubbish at his job and didn't manage to bring in any business.

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Can't say I've heard of either of them but irrespective of who nominally gets the job, the mouthpiece (if elected) will be that mega-ego which is Alex Salmond (if he has the spare time after writing Labour's budget for them.)

Perhaps the reason you have not heard of either of these very able and high profile women is that you are blinkered, if not blinded, by your ridiculous prejudices and equally unfounded mantra that Alec Salmond is the SNP

 

I really am not interested enough in the minutiae of the SNP to follow the progress of each and every Party apparatchik. And I am sure there is widespread angst throughout the party that the perception that "Alex Salmond is the SNP" is still being driven more than anyone else by Alex Salmond!

 

 

I'm not so sure it is though. During the referendum campaign the press did their best to equate a vote for Independence = a vote for the SNP = a vote for Alex Salmond, whereas the YES Campaign tried their very best to make it known that wasn't the case. The idea of the debates, whilst eventually being Salmond vs Darling was pitted as YES vs NO, again by the media but this was not the case (Salmond was not the leader of the YES Campaign).

 

The media are slowly coming around to this idea that the SNP is more than just Salmond, and I certainly haven't seen any coverage that has suggested that Salmond is trying to peddle the idea that he is the SNP.

 

 

 

Some of my thoughts

 

  • Why do people, on here, believe that there has been a massive swing from Labour to the SNP?
  • The media continue to peddle the "Cybernat Trolls" line whilst simultaneously printing absolute dirge and abuse about the SNP (in particular Nicola Sturgeon)
  • The new line of attack recently seems to be about Neil Hay's non-tweets, yet Ian Smarts tweets are completely overlooked (and are infinitely more vile than anything that Neil Hay linked to).
  • The SNPOut nonsense is just hilarious, and seems to have been hijacked by Loyalists in more recent times.
  • Northern Irish politics just makes me sad.

 

I can't agree. Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right. What Neil Hay said was wholly unacceptable for someone seeking election to public office and the fact that others in other parties may have being saying worse makes it no better.

 

In my opinion he ought to have been suspended from the party even if, at this late stage, it left the SNP with no candidate in what is looking like a winnable constituency.

 

I know that Nicola Sturgeon condemned his actions in very strong terms but, in my view, that did not go far enough. I would not want a man holding such views as my parliamentary representative.

 

 

But he didn't actually say these things. I have also seen nowhere that has proved this account was run by him as well.

 

Given that he hasn't denied it and that his very competent and astute party leader has specifically and unambiguously condemned him I think that has to be a fair assumption.

 

You will note from my previous posts on this thread that you and I are singing from a similar hymn sheet but there is no point in defending the indefensible or arguing that black is white just because it suits the cause....

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DD, which part of the SNP aren't as stupid as Unionist politicians(and supporters) seem to think, are you failing to understand? 

 

 

 

Oddquine, you seem to completely misunderstand where I am coming from.  I would accuse the SNP of a lot of things but stupidity is not one of them.  The reason why they are surging ahead in the polls is that they are far more strategically savvy than any of the unionist parties.  During the referendum campaign I said more than once that the strong YES vote was to a significant extent the consequence of a totally inept No campaign right from the way the referendum was agreed to the appalling "vow" intervention.  Since then it looks as though they have learnt nothing.

 

The SNP have been clever in a number of ways:-

  1. They have been very astute in understanding the power of the internet and social networking in particular.  That has given large numbers of people the feeling that the SNP are more in touch with the voters than the others.
  2. In particular the SNP have galvanised the young through social media and it is the young who have the energy to campaign and who spend most time sharing thoughts on social media.  This is very important given that the younger age groups have previously not bothered to vote as much as others.
  3. They used the referendum to promote the policies they would aspire to deliver in an independent Scotland.  Of course it was unfordable but it sounded good.  The Unionist parties could not put counter proposals forward because they were campaigning against there ever being an independent Scotland.
  4. Having poached shed loads of labour voters with this ruse, they have continued to argue for higher public spending in the UK Government election in the full knowledge that they cannot form a Government, will not be part of any coalition and therefore will never be held to account for non delivery of their pledges.  What they "offer" is more attractive to your average left wing voters than what Labour is offering but not so grossly unrealistic as to make those who might benefit most feel sceptical.
  5. They have claimed the image of Scottishness for their cause.  The "Yes" campaign had a St Andrew's flag as it's symbol whilst the "No" campaign did not.  They claim SNP MPs will give a voice to the Scots in Westminster implying that Unionist MPs from Scotland somehow do not.  And they dismiss criticisms of unrealistic economic performance forecasts as talking Scotland and the Scottish people down.  It is all designed to imply that you must be in favour of independence if you are a true Scot.
  6. They have also claimed the image of positivism.  Again the referendum handed them this on a plate with a YES/NO option.  They capitalise on this by offering things we would like to see but which they will not be in a position to deliver.  Sturgeon is constantly using the word "progressive" which implies she is offering something more positive and modern than the others.  It seems to be working although I am sure the Tories and Lib Dems would consider their policies also to be progressive. 
  7. They work on the basis that if you say something often enough people will believe it.  They constantly criticise the Tories on Health Spending even though the Coalition's spending record on the NHS in England has been better than the SNP's in Scotland.

For all the assertions that the SNP MPs will work positively at Westminster for the good of the UK as a whole we all know that the raison d'etre of the SNP is to secure independence.  They will use their numbers at Westminster to further that aim rather than work for the good of the UK as a whole.  I am not for a minute saying that they will deliberately set out to wreck the economy but by putting policies in their manifesto that they know a UK Government will not deliver, they will be able to turn round to a Scottish electorate and claim that the Westminster Parliament is not working for Scotland.

 

The SNP has always shaped its strategy and policies on what best suits the Independence cause.  When Scotland was voting Conservative in the 50s they set out to exploit the popular ideology and were known as the Tartan Tories.  It took them a while but they finally clocked that Scotland had moved to the left and that they needed to as well.  And how!  They bend with the wind and say whatever they think best reflects the mood of the Scottish people safe in the knowledge that they will not be accountable for putting their views to the test.  And having attained accountability in Holyrood they constantly shift the blame elsewhere.  They starve the local councils and Health Boards of cash and then blame them when they can't reach targets or need to cut services, and then they blame Westminster for starving them of cash despite the extra the Barnett formula gives them.

 

And now they say they will vote in Westminster on matters which are devolved to Scotland.  They claim that this is because it will affect the Barnett formula.  But despite this pathetic reason and the "we come in peace to help you" message, the real reason is simply to anger the English.  It's the age old proven tactic of divide and rule.  Of course the English are very angry at the prospect of Scottish MPs influencing health policy in England against the majority wishes of the English voters - one might as well elect 50 English Representatives to sit at Holyrood to meddle in Scottish affairs.  If that wasn't bad enough there is the hypocrisy of Sturgeon's pledge that she will help the English get rid of privatisation of the NHS when the SNP have done nothing to remove the private sector from the NHS in Scotland. 

 

I've gone on long enough but I'll give just one more example of the shameless shallow popularism displayed by the SNP in this campaign.  During the "Challengers" debate the leaders were being asked for solutions to the housing crisis.  Farage pointed out quite reasonably, that in order to develop a solution you need to understand the causes of the problem and that as far as housing was concerned the fact that net immigration was so high was a major factor.  Having earlier scored a spectacular own goal by insulting the studio audience, Farage was wounded and Sturgeon exploited the popular mood by deciding to give him a good kicking whilst he was down.  She rounded on him saying that immigrants bring a lot of benefit to the country and it was a disgrace that he should blame them for the shortage of housing.  How the audience clapped!  But later, Sturgeon herself made exactly the same point as Farage had done in saying why we needed to find ways of building more affordable housing.  The opportunism and hypocrisy is quite breathtaking.

 

So, yes.  I agree the SNP leaders are clever, but they are also dishonest, hypocritical, controlling, manipulative and opportunistic.

 

As for the two party leaders, one of which will be our next Prime Minister - well, words fail me.  Inept during the referendum and inept now.  Far from being the best Prime Ministerial candidate in the country, Milliband is not even the best candidate in his family.  And why on Earth does Cameron get so obsessed about the SNP?  Perhaps it is his guilt about how close he was to being responsible for the break up of the Union - but if so, he has learnt nothing.  Why can't he learn about being a bit more positive?  All we hear about is his attacks on the dangers of a labour Government and particularly one with SNP support. It might make for good copy for journalists but it does nothing for the voters other than to turn them off politics.

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Nicola Sturgeons manifesto launch statement:-

 

At this election, we have the opportunity to shake up the out of touch Westminster system so that it serves Scotland better.

A vote for the SNP on May 7th is a vote for MPs who will always stand up for Scotland's best interests. It is a vote to make Scotland's voice heard at Westminster more loudly than it has ever been heard before. And it is a vote for more progressive politics.

The SNP will use our influence at Westminster to help deliver positive change for the benefit of ordinary people, not just in Scotland, but across the UK.

We propose a real alternative to the pain of austerity, an end to unfair policies like the Bedroom Tax, a higher minimum wage and protection for our NHS and vital public services. Instead of even deeper Westminster spending cuts, we want to see more investment in our economy, to create more and better paid jobs. And we want the precious resources of our country to be invested in building a better future for our children, not on a  and the statements after the new generation of nuclear weapons.

The SNP will never put the Tories into power.

Instead, if there is an anti-Tory majority after the election, we will offer to work with other parties to keep the Tories out. And we will then use our influence to demand that Labour delivers the real change that people want and need - instead of just being a carbon copy of the Tories.

A vote for the SNP will make Scotland's voice heard - loudly and clearly. And it will help deliver new, better and more progressive politics at Westminster for everyone.

My vow is to make Scotland stronger at Westminster. With your support, we can secure a better future for you, your family and Scotland.

 

I see nothing in that statement that makes SNP dishonest, hypocritical, controlling, manipulative and opportunistic. Nor is there anything in the manifesto to suggest they are looking at another referendum in the near future. The pledge from conference and the statements after the referendum suggested that particular subject was being put to bed for the time being and that improving the way Scotland is seen by and treated by Westminster takes priority. Uk needs left of centre politics for true governance and the SNP are the only party that can open the eyes of the current crop of blue labour.

The independence question is brought up now by everyone other than SNP. I believe one of the reasons for this is to deflect attention away from the possibility of an early referendum on EU membership. A membership that has been very good for rural Scotland and for trade in general.

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Not reading all that, but the last bit stood out for its unintentional irony, when every unionist on here posts obsessively about the 'Nats', the 'separatists', and mein feckin' Banff.  :blink:

 

"And why on Earth does Cameron get so obsessed about the SNP?  Perhaps it is his guilt about how close he was to being responsible for the break up of the Union - but if so, he has learnt nothing.  Why can't he learn about being a bit more positive? 

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