Is the G-word racist?

[Guest birdog]

Henceforth I shall be referring to C*unty supporting Dingwall dwellers as "Slumdogs" and invite you all to join me in the rebranding of the unwashed.

[Guest birdog]

The Famine song is racist. You wouldnt sing this about Blacks so why is it ok to sing it about Irish? Only in Scotland will you fine something like this.

DornochCaley, you have clearly stated here that you believe the famine song to be racist but in the following posts you seem to be staunchly defending your right to use derogatory terms, even having them censored by the site management in one post, towards travellers.

Im in Dublin just now and to hear this has pissed me of to no means. We have a ***** team, and now we are going to have NO atmosphere. Theres no point in going to the games now tbh!

In 10 years time, or at this rate, even less, there will be no atmosphere at any football ground in Britain. They are tearing the heart out of the game we all love! W*NKERS!

This is a joke. I cant belive what is happening to the world we live in. I know its the law, but it has not been helped by "Him".

I say, against QotS, we get a Mike Smith, get to Feck chant on the go!

I find it a bit sad that for much of our support shouting gypsy stuff at C*unty fans seems to be a major highlight of the season.

I know it's nothing more than banter and it's been around for a long time, but is it really such a big deal?

Besides that I'm sure somebody will come up with something much more offensive than the "gypsy" word and which hopefully might not be deemed against the law.

I'll be there tomorrow, looking forward to cheering on my new idol - Nick Ross - the most exciting young talent I've ever seen at ICT.

Inbred *******?

lice troden ****bags?

Tuchter ********?

Caravan roaming ******?

The following quote is taken from this link

It is difficult to identify the exact origins of Irish Travellers. Some claim they are the

descendants of the dispossessed from the war with Cromwell in the seventeenth

century or the ?Great Famine? in Ireland in the mid nineteenth century. However there

are some who contest such claims and propose much earlier origins. O?Riain claims

there is evidence which points to the existence of nomadic groups in Ireland as early

as the fifth century AD and by the twelth century the name Tynkler or Tynker is said

to have been given to a group of nomads who had maintained a separate identity,

social organisation and dialect (O?Riain, Solidarity with Travellers, 2000, 8).

Given that there is a school of thought that Irish Travellers (sometimes referred to as Gypos, tinks, tinklers, etc) are descended from people displaced from Ireland due to the famine, do you think it is right to use these terms or do you think that the Famine Song is no more harmful than calling a Dingwallian a gypo?

[RiG]

Let's call them minghawks.

[Guest birdog]

Let's call them minghawks.

I still think slumdogs is better, see how similar Karachi's slum and Dingwall are. I think the Ross-shire council should approach them for a twinning exercise between the two towns.

[RiG]

That looks like Tillydrone.

[DornochCaley]

The Famine song is racist. You wouldnt sing this about Blacks so why is it ok to sing it about Irish? Only in Scotland will you fine something like this.

DornochCaley, you have clearly stated here that you believe the famine song to be racist but in the following posts you seem to be staunchly defending your right to use derogatory terms, even having them censored by the site management in one post, towards travellers.

Im in Dublin just now and to hear this has pissed me of to no means. We have a ***** team, and now we are going to have NO atmosphere. Theres no point in going to the games now tbh!

In 10 years time, or at this rate, even less, there will be no atmosphere at any football ground in Britain. They are tearing the heart out of the game we all love! W*NKERS!

This is a joke. I cant belive what is happening to the world we live in. I know its the law, but it has not been helped by "Him".

I say, against QotS, we get a Mike Smith, get to Feck chant on the go!

I find it a bit sad that for much of our support shouting gypsy stuff at C*unty fans seems to be a major highlight of the season.

I know it's nothing more than banter and it's been around for a long time, but is it really such a big deal?

Besides that I'm sure somebody will come up with something much more offensive than the "gypsy" word and which hopefully might not be deemed against the law.

I'll be there tomorrow, looking forward to cheering on my new idol - Nick Ross - the most exciting young talent I've ever seen at ICT.

Inbred *******?

lice troden ****bags?

Tuchter ********?

Caravan roaming ******?

The following quote is taken from this link

It is difficult to identify the exact origins of Irish Travellers. Some claim they are the

descendants of the dispossessed from the war with Cromwell in the seventeenth

century or the 'Great Famine' in Ireland in the mid nineteenth century. However there

are some who contest such claims and propose much earlier origins. O'Riain claims

there is evidence which points to the existence of nomadic groups in Ireland as early

as the fifth century AD and by the twelth century the name Tynkler or Tynker is said

to have been given to a group of nomads who had maintained a separate identity,

social organisation and dialect (O'Riain, Solidarity with Travellers, 2000, 8).

Given that there is a school of thought that Irish Travellers (sometimes referred to as Gypos, tinks, tinklers, etc) are descended from people displaced from Ireland due to the famine, do you think it is right to use these terms or do you think that the Famine Song is no more harmful than calling a Dingwallian a gypo?

I never actually knew that thats where those terms came from. BUT...its the context you use it in. If i call a County fan a gypo, i use it in the context of football banter, no harm really intended. But if i was to use it as a means of being racist, then thats diffrent. I do see where you are coming from though and it has made me think....

[Guest birdog]

I never actually knew that thats where those terms came from. BUT...its the context you use it in. If i call a County fan a gypo, i use it in the context of football banter, no harm really intended. But if i was to use it as a means of being racist, then thats diffrent. I do see where you are coming from though and it has made me think....

Good that was my intention and a little more food for thought, Dingwall and Ross-shire have been associated with travelling people for generations- that is why we referred to them with those words, not football banter (banter was the excuse used by Rangers fans when that song first started doing the rounds too.)

[DornochCaley]

Fair enough.

But

Theres a diffrence between the two. The "Famine song" Mocks the death of over 1 million people. Gypo is a word which for centuries didnt bother ANYONE. That was just the same they were given, yet now, people seem to think it must be a bad thing. I do actually know real Gypsies and they have no problem with it and they say all the other Gypsies they know dont have a problem as they have always been called it, and when they are, its very rare its for derogetory use. The gypsies i refer to are the Granny and Grand of my sisters freind......They own some of the rides that go to the galas and stuff.

Edited October 11, 2009 by DornochCaley

[Guest birdog]

Fair enough.

But

Theres a diffrence between the two. The "Famine song" Mocks the death of over 1 million people. Gypo is a word which for centuries didnt bother ANYONE. That was just the same they were given, yet now, people seem to think it must be a bad thing. I do actually know real Gypsies and they have no problem with it and they say all the other Gypsies they know dont have a problem as they have always been called it, and when they are, its very rare its for derogetory use. The gypsies i refer to are the Granny and Grand of my sisters freind......They own some of the rides that go to the galas and stuff.

Typical old firmesque excuses, I have included a couple of links here to show that your blinkered views are misguided to say the least-

Gypsy on wikipedia whilst I know English and Scottish law differ according to English law travelling showmen (like you refer to) are not protected the same way as Nomadic people such as Irish or Scottish travellers or Romany people. [Wikipedia is unreliable but the important facts do have citations]

Gypsy has several different and overlapping meanings under English Law. Under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 Gypsies are defined as "persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such.",[6] this definition includes such groups as New Age Travellers, as well as Irish Travellers and Romany.[7][8]

Irish traveller.

Irish Travellers (Irish: Lucht si?il) are a traditionally nomadic people of Irish origin living predominantly in Ireland, Great Britain, and the United States. Among themselves, Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees. Derogatory terms are sometimes used to refer to them by non-Travellers, such as 'pikeys', 'knackers', and 'gypos'. In Irish, Travellers are called an Lucht Si?il (literally, "the walking people"). Many non-Travellers still use the term 'tinkers' which originally meant "tinsmiths", however this term is also considered derogatory

EDIT- I forgot to address your point about mocking the deaths of Irish people during the famine, do you not think that by mocking people about their lifestyle, which was forced upon them by the famine, is the same as the mockery from Rangers fans? After all it is the descendants of the famine survivors which are being mocked in both cases and in both cases it is for the same reason, they are in the UK due to the disaster and certain people would prefer they were not here.

Edited October 11, 2009 by birdog

[DornochCaley]

Fair enough.

But

Theres a diffrence between the two. The "Famine song" Mocks the death of over 1 million people. Gypo is a word which for centuries didnt bother ANYONE. That was just the same they were given, yet now, people seem to think it must be a bad thing. I do actually know real Gypsies and they have no problem with it and they say all the other Gypsies they know dont have a problem as they have always been called it, and when they are, its very rare its for derogetory use. The gypsies i refer to are the Granny and Grand of my sisters freind......They own some of the rides that go to the galas and stuff.

Typical old firmesque excuses, I have included a couple of links here to show that your blinkered views are misguided to say the least-

Gypsy on wikipedia whilst I know English and Scottish law differ according to English law travelling showmen (like you refer to) are not protected the same way as Nomadic people such as Irish or Scottish travellers or Romany people. [Wikipedia is unreliable but the important facts do have citations]

Gypsy has several different and overlapping meanings under English Law. Under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 Gypsies are defined as "persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such.",[6] this definition includes such groups as New Age Travellers, as well as Irish Travellers and Romany.[7][8]

Irish traveller.

Irish Travellers (Irish: Lucht si?il) are a traditionally nomadic people of Irish origin living predominantly in Ireland, Great Britain, and the United States. Among themselves, Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees. Derogatory terms are sometimes used to refer to them by non-Travellers, such as 'pikeys', 'knackers', and 'gypos'. In Irish, Travellers are called an Lucht Si?il (literally, "the walking people"). Many non-Travellers still use the term 'tinkers' which originally meant "tinsmiths", however this term is also considered derogatory

Ahh i see.

You mentioned my "old firmesque excuses". Im am going to build on this just now by leaving the topic slightly.....If you look at what has been happening with all this "no swearing" and stuff, is it any wonder boys like me would rather support one of the old firm than ICT? Ok, most support them because they are just little glory hunters. I am not, as i have stated a while back. But look at it from a boy my age point of view...would you rather go to ICT, a whole 20 at a push singing, people beside you moaning because you sing, people moaning because you dont sing, stewards telling you to sit down. The list goes on. OR, would you rather go to CP/Ibrox where you can sing with alot more people, sing without the worry that would will be moaned at with whatever you do. You can stand depending what section you are in at CP/Ibrox, though i know the stewards are W*nkers there too.

[Guest birdog]

Ahh i see.

You mentioned my "old firmesque excuses". Im am going to build on this just now by leaving the topic slightly.....If you look at what has been happening with all this "no swearing" and stuff, is it any wonder boys like me would rather support one of the old firm than ICT? Ok, most support them because they are just little glory hunters. I am not, as i have stated a while back. But look at it from a boy my age point of view...would you rather go to ICT, a whole 20 at a push singing, people beside you moaning because you sing, people moaning because you dont sing, stewards telling you to sit down. The list goes on. OR, would you rather go to CP/Ibrox where you can sing with alot more people, sing without the worry that would will be moaned at with whatever you do. You can stand depending what section you are in at CP/Ibrox, though i know the stewards are W*nkers there too.

Well let me say how I see it, you felt very angry at the fact that your "banter" was being stamped on by the club, this banter included racism and swearing both of which are against the law in this country and you and your group have started a whole heap of bad feeling amongst fans on this forum because fellow fans have complained (justifiably within their legal rights) now I have no problem with what you chant and I have no problem with profanity (I am just as guilty on both counts) the problem I have is that ICT are performing extremely poorly and this is leading to in fighting within our fans. The reason I have gone to such lengths is that I don't think we need this just now and I apologise for singling you out but this was the only opportunity I had to get my point across without being flamed by a heap of posters on this forum.

[DornochCaley]

Ahh i see.

You mentioned my "old firmesque excuses". Im am going to build on this just now by leaving the topic slightly.....If you look at what has been happening with all this "no swearing" and stuff, is it any wonder boys like me would rather support one of the old firm than ICT? Ok, most support them because they are just little glory hunters. I am not, as i have stated a while back. But look at it from a boy my age point of view...would you rather go to ICT, a whole 20 at a push singing, people beside you moaning because you sing, people moaning because you dont sing, stewards telling you to sit down. The list goes on. OR, would you rather go to CP/Ibrox where you can sing with alot more people, sing without the worry that would will be moaned at with whatever you do. You can stand depending what section you are in at CP/Ibrox, though i know the stewards are W*nkers there too.

Well let me say how I see it, you felt very angry at the fact that your "banter" was being stamped on by the club, this banter included racism and swearing both of which are against the law in this country and you and your group have started a whole heap of bad feeling amongst fans on this forum because fellow fans have complained (justifiably within their legal rights) now I have no problem with what you chant and I have no problem with profanity (I am just as guilty on both counts) the problem I have is that ICT are performing extremely poorly and this is leading to in fighting within our fans. The reason I have gone to such lengths is that I don't think we need this just now and I apologise for singling you out but this was the only opportunity I had to get my point across without being flamed by a heap of posters on this forum.

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

[Guest birdog]

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

Swearing is a public order offence.

[DornochCaley]

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

Swearing is a public order offence.

This is news to me

[TheKnowledge]

Ahh i see.

You mentioned my "old firmesque excuses". Im am going to build on this just now by leaving the topic slightly.....If you look at what has been happening with all this "no swearing" and stuff, is it any wonder boys like me would rather support one of the old firm than ICT? Ok, most support them because they are just little glory hunters. I am not, as i have stated a while back. But look at it from a boy my age point of view...would you rather go to ICT, a whole 20 at a push singing, people beside you moaning because you sing, people moaning because you dont sing, stewards telling you to sit down. The list goes on. OR, would you rather go to CP/Ibrox where you can sing with alot more people, sing without the worry that would will be moaned at with whatever you do. You can stand depending what section you are in at CP/Ibrox, though i know the stewards are W*nkers there too.

Well let me say how I see it, you felt very angry at the fact that your "banter" was being stamped on by the club, this banter included racism and swearing both of which are against the law in this country and you and your group have started a whole heap of bad feeling amongst fans on this forum because fellow fans have complained (justifiably within their legal rights) now I have no problem with what you chant and I have no problem with profanity (I am just as guilty on both counts) the problem I have is that ICT are performing extremely poorly and this is leading to in fighting within our fans. The reason I have gone to such lengths is that I don't think we need this just now and I apologise for singling you out but this was the only opportunity I had to get my point across without being flamed by a heap of posters on this forum.

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

In a public place I think it is.

[Guest birdog]

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

Swearing is a public order offence.

This is news to me

I think it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes offence to another person using profanities then it becomes a breach of the peace, I was certainly convicted of breach for swearing on one occasion.

[DornochCaley]

I know what you mean.....Swearing is illigal?

Swearing is a public order offence.

This is news to me

I think it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes offence to another person using profanities then it becomes a breach of the peace, I was certainly convicted of breach for swearing on one occasion.

Im not sure this is true, but this is what i was led to belive.....What is now known as swearing was just the common language of the working class man. It was frowned upon as "Common" by the upper classes and so it was seen as bad to use that type of language. And so, over many, many years, swearing has been seen as something bad even though it didnt used to be.

As is said, im not sure that is true but i have been told thats the origin of why swearing is seen as bad. If so, could this not really be seen as discrimination against the working class people as it is discriminating against the way they speak?