Butcher - Stay or Go.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Coming up to that time of the season where decisions have to be made about players and staff (unfortunately no decision can be made on the more executive members of ICT). So do you believe in Butcher and Malpas, or do you think they've had their time and can move on satisfied that they have done a good job.

Simple enough, a vote and an explanation. My vote goes to 'Regardless of the season's finish'. I've seen enough this season to convince me that Butcher has the makings of a good team, and that he should be allowed time to mould them into league winners. And, if Dundee were taken out of the equation, we would be winning the league this season.

I fully expect the replies to be positive.... B)

[Caley Stan]

My vote goes to 'Regardless of the season's finish'. I've seen enough this season to convince me that Butcher has the makings of a good team, and that he should be allowed time to mould them into league winners. And, if Dundee were taken out of the equation, we would be winning the league this season.

B)

[TopSix]

I'm hopeful they stay.

[CaleyD]

Nice of you to include answer 3 so people can take the cop out and not commit to a real opinion B)

[tokelyisvictorious]

Nice of you to include answer 3 so people can take the cop out and not commit to a real opinion ;)

I'm good like that. B)

Nice to see 100% so far on the 'Regardless' answer.

[Kylef]

voted regardless......and its good to see nearly 80% so far feel the same out 39 votes.

if this question was asked say what, even 6 weeks ago? i think the answers would be alot different. i think the players now realise what is at stake here, it all looked doom and gloom and now they have a taste for the promotion race its all on.

think yesterday was a wasted oppertunity to go 2nd, however i wasnt at the game so cant comment. but lets see whats happens in the next week at morton and dundee.

[DornochCaley]

My first thoughts are he wouldn't stay on... But then thinking about it he probably will. He will be relishing the chance of being in a promotion race possibly again next season and he has probably settled up here... And no other clubs want him.

[gingerjaggy]

we had to give him time now that looks good as we have been on a good run the board now have to sign him up so we can keep the squad intact watever happens this season

[Guest Mahonio]

I think he has to stay because he has done a good job for us especially this year (2010 alone) where i don't think we have lost a game at all yet and his dealings in the transfer market haven't been to bad and also because if we did need a new manager then we really would need to re-build but from scratch because we would have no players.

[AJS]

If Butcher stays then it will provide the appropriate catalyst to get the better players of this team to stay, thus restoring some stability to the club.

His dealings overall in the transfer market have been good and hopefully a season in the 1st Division will have made him spot one or two gems at the lesser clubs.

3rd point is that our form has been overall fairly top notch. Saturday was a blip but we have seen so many games like that where we come away with nothing.

Its a regardless of where we finish for me.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Good to see all positive replies so far.

If Butcher stays, as well as Esson, Hayes and Foran (and maybe even Duncan after saturday's showing) we have a real chance.

Then again, if we have to let these players go, it might be a different story. Although Butcher has rebuilt a team, the core of the squad has remained from last season (Esson, Roscoe, Munro, Duncan, Foran, Rooney), I'm not sure how he would fare completely starting from scratch.

[TopSix]

I'm hopeful that we won't lose the players you mentioned above. If we do the only saving grace may be that there's very little money in the game.

[Renegade]

Even though the contracts have all been announced I was going to post this anyway. My view would be "Approach with Caution." Butcher's teams all have one thing in common, he makes a pigs ear of things whilst making a pig of himself. This is a manager who gets manager's jobs only because he's a big footballing name and if he was any good good he most certainly would not be at a club of this size in the Scottish Division One. He's never had what could be called a "successful" managerial reign at any club, though he has had more than one disaster. And is it any surprise? This is a manager who thinks that Lionel and Golabek are better than Hastings, and most unbelievably of all, that Daniel Stratford is better than Iain Vigurs! Seriously unbelievable stuff.

But it's not really Butcher himself that scares me, it's his right hand man. For another season (whether ICT are promoted or not), this man is essentially either a hard beat away from the manager's job, or the highly likely replacement for Butcher when he eventually decides to go. The thought of Malpas being the manager of this club fills me with fear, cause if you thought Brew was bad, then you've seen nothing yet.

[CaleyD]

Looks like I could have someone to pass the "Broken Record" title over too.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Looks as though the decision has already been made. Good to see, a bit of positivity running into the last few games as well.

Nice to see my influence has spread so far... :)

[Scotty]

He's never had what could be called a "successful" managerial reign at any club.

Motherwell ... which I believe is the only other time that he and MM have teamed up and as discussed on here previously, together they seem to make a good partnership but apart, they are both a little lost !

He was there for 4 seasons and although his first full season in charge was not spectacular with a winning % of only 25%, it was perhaps not surprising given that he was rebuilding a side that had to pay off a huge number of its squad due to financial woes. His winning record in 03/04, 04/05, and 05/06 were all above the generally accepted "average" of 33.33% and he finished in the top six of the SPL in each of those seasons and also took Well to the League Cup Final.

If he was in charge of ICT and achieved 3 top six finishes and a cup final place (other than Challenge Cup) we would be hailing him as our best ever manager !

His record at ICT also makes pretty good reading so far despite all the mumping and moaning !

Overall: P=50 W=23 D=13 L=14 GoalsFor=74 GoalsAgainst=54 !!! Winning % = 46%

09/10: P=33 W=17 D=8 L=8 GoalsFor=57 GoalsAgainst=38 !!! Winning % = 51.52%

But it's not really Butcher himself that scares me, it's his right hand man. For another season (whether ICT are promoted or not), this man is essentially either a hard beat away from the manager's job, or the highly likely replacement for Butcher when he eventually decides to go. The thought of Malpas being the manager of this club fills me with fear, cause if you thought Brew was bad, then you've seen nothing yet.

So we should not continue with a manager who has been quite succesful so far just in case his current assistant doesnt walk away with him (as happens in most cases) when he decides to go ? What absolute crap !

Dont forget, TB took this job on condition he could have MM as his assistant and if he were to go it is more likely than not that MM would go with him as both are probably well aware that they function best as a managerial team rather than individually.

[Renegade]

He's never had what could be called a "successful" managerial reign at any club.

Motherwell ... which I believe is the only other time that he and MM have teamed up and as discussed on here previously, together they seem to make a good partnership but apart, they are both a little lost !

He was there for 4 seasons and although his first full season in charge was not spectacular with a winning % of only 25%, it was perhaps not surprising given that he was rebuilding a side that had to pay off a huge number of its squad due to financial woes. His winning record in 03/04, 04/05, and 05/06 were all above the generally accepted "average" of 33.33% and he finished in the top six of the SPL in each of those seasons and also took Well to the League Cup Final.

If he was in charge of ICT and achieved 3 top six finishes and a cup final place (other than Challenge Cup) we would be hailing him as our best ever manager !

His record at ICT also makes pretty good reading so far despite all the mumping and moaning !

Overall: P=50 W=23 D=13 L=14 GoalsFor=74 GoalsAgainst=54 !!! Winning % = 46%

09/10: P=33 W=17 D=8 L=8 GoalsFor=57 GoalsAgainst=38 !!! Winning % = 51.52%

Fair point, but remember it still wasn't exactly spectacular and he should have been relegated in his first season (he was saved by Brockville). I also seem to recollect hearing that when Butcher was head hunted by Sydney, some fans were glad he had moved on, not necessarily because he was particularly bad, but they felt it was time for some new ideas.

But it's not really Butcher himself that scares me, it's his right hand man. For another season (whether ICT are promoted or not), this man is essentially either a hard beat away from the manager's job, or the highly likely replacement for Butcher when he eventually decides to go. The thought of Malpas being the manager of this club fills me with fear, cause if you thought Brew was bad, then you've seen nothing yet.

So we should not continue with a manager who has been quite succesful so far just in case his current assistant doesnt walk away with him (as happens in most cases) when he decides to go ? What absolute crap !

That's the risk you take when you have an assistant who has been a manager in his own right, and in Butcher and Malpas's case it has happened before. Would you like see Malpas as ICT boss?

Dont forget, TB took this job on condition he could have MM as his assistant and if he were to go it is more likely than not that MM would go with him as both are probably well aware that they function best as a managerial team rather than individually.

Let's hope so.

[Alex MacLeod]

This is a manager who thinks that Lionel and Golabek are better than Hastings.

Richard Hastings did not want to stay at a first division club because he believed it would impinge on his international ambitions.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Alex MacLeod

[Renegade]

I know that, but had he'd been played more then ICT might have stayed up but we'll never know now.

[starchief]

He's never had what could be called a "successful" managerial reign at any club.

Motherwell ... which I believe is the only other time that he and MM have teamed up and as discussed on here previously, together they seem to make a good partnership but apart, they are both a little lost !

I'd also give him Coventry. Thought he did a great job there and his sacking was greeted with disbelief at the time. The following managerial teams showed how well Butcher did too.

His reign at teams like Brentford and Sydney were so short, I don't think he can really shoulder too much blame. I'm pretty sure the vote above would have been reversed if it was held after only a few months. Let him get his feet under the table, his own players and his own system. Only then can a manager be judged. Not on someone else's team.

[Renegade]

He lost his job at Brentford because he was terrible. Made a complete tube of himself whilst having a "Brewster at Dundee United-esque" record, making himself rather unpopular with the fans and backroom staff, whilst apparently being rather frustrated by the fact that his players couldn't play at the same level he could.

Sydney is another thing altogether. The way he came in with with his attitude of "I'm from England so I know best" attitude is a suicidal thing to do in Australia. And it wasn't just that. There's also a well known TV pundit over there named Craig Foster, who captained Australia many times in the 90s whilst also playing for Portsmouth and Crystal Palace. He let his feelings known on Butcher's managerial skills but Butcher felt he didn't deserve an opinion as Foster had never played in a World Cup. This was also topped off by Butcher, using his column in the Sydney Morning Herald, to write an open letter to Foster, that wasn't just nasty, but also rather childish. Along with his boring football style (a complete contrast to what the fans were used to after the rather successful managerial reign and exciting football of his predecessor Pierre Littbarski), and his fall out with the Sydney share holder and well known Australian actor Anthony laPaglia, Butcher was justifiably punted out of Sydney FC. Losing the Sydney job was his own fault and I think the same will eventually happen here. On the plus side, maybe in time Australian football supporters will thank Butcher. He single handedly killed the long ball game there forever.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Renegade

[Scotty]

At the end of the day, what he did at <insert club name here> does not matter. What matters is what he does/did at ICT and so far he has a pretty decent record as posted above. That record is comparable to most seasons under Paterson and only Robbo had a significantly better set of stats in our D1 championship winning season.

Some will argue that he could/would/should have kept us up but before you blame Butcher for all of that, try blaming the Board for not sacking CB earlier, CB for his abysmal record, the Players for not getting a win in any of our 7 drawn games, or for not turning any of our 21 defeats into draws or wins, or - the real reason - a combination of each and every one of them and probably a few more factors I havent included !!!!

At the end of the season we went down by a goal difference of 2 and when he was appointed getting that close to safety was almost unthinkable. Had we scored one more against St Mirren we would have stayed up by virtue of more goals scored. Had Accies beaten St Mirren 0-3 instead of 0-1 on the final day we would have stayed up for the same reason. Had we beaten newly promoted Accies at home on just the second day of the season we would have stayed up ! Had we beaten Falkirk on the last day ..... the list goes on and on and on.

[Renegade]

The difference is though is Butcher (at the time commendably) had ICT essentially safe. His bizarre antics with a couple of games to go blew it.

[Ronaldo]

I blame St Mirren myself

[Scotty]

The difference is though is Butcher (at the time commendably) had ICT essentially safe. His bizarre antics with a couple of games to go blew it.

bulls*** !!! Relegation was the result of a season-long malaise not one game. If we had had a different outcome in ANY of the 28 games we did NOT win (5 draws, 5 losses for Butcher, 2 draws, 15 losses for CB, + 1 loss for the Doc/Garden as caretakers) we would have stayed up. If we had scored a single goal more against St Mirren we would have stayed up. If St Mirren had conceded 2 more goals against ANY team(s) over the course of the entire season, we would have stayed up.

I will concede that the manager did make a couple of bizarre selections and ultimately yes they backfired on him, but he did not go out to lose those games and come the end of the season a league record of W5,D5,L5,F15,A15.Pts=20 was far superior to his predecessor who had W5,D2,L15,F20,A38.Pts=17. Your logic is as flawed as those who blame Ross Tokely for our SPL status because he got sent off.