Matchday Thread ICT -V- Rangers

[+DoofersDad]

I agree with your entire post. I think most people are disappointed with the performance and not the result, and not for the first time this season the tactics are in question. I hope the extra training TB and MM had them in doing today on thier normal day off were addressing the issues to make for a better performance next week.

How many times is Butcher going to trot out that line? Why do paid professionals need punishing like this in the hope of producing a professional display?

If motivation is an issue, then it's simple, don't pick those who can't be arsed or won't play to their potential. Tansey for me looked the worst offender in this department yesterday. Ultimately the question has to be asked, why are they not motivated?

Ah! We agree on something! 100% agree with you on this.

[Jay_7]

In his earlier post Jay 7 says "As things stand, it's going to be a very long, long time before I ever pay to get back into that stadium again."

How is the club supposed to get where you want it to be (however unrealistic that may be) if nobody goes along and gives support to the club when it needs it?

To be honest, that's not my problem. Nor is it any supporters problem. As I said originally, I went to games last season in the hope of being entertained. You can trot out whatever nonsense you like about last seasons league position, the fact is at home we were absolute cannon fodder and that's not what I paid to see.

If the club want to retain or possibly even build on attendances, then they better start looking to bring proper talent to the club and not the English back-water pish that has mostly come through. David Davis was a fantastic signing, yet we couldn't keep him. What's the ratio of gems to dross that we've seen being signed for this season? Butcher can say what he likes about the season starting early, but he knew that this was the case and he didn't prepare adequately for it.

[davie]

In his earlier post Jay 7 says "As things stand, it's going to be a very long, long time before I ever pay to get back into that stadium again."

How is the club supposed to get where you want it to be (however unrealistic that may be) if nobody goes along and gives support to the club when it needs it?

To be honest, that's not my problem. Nor is it any supporters problem. As I said originally, I went to games last season in the hope of being entertained. You can trot out whatever nonsense you like about last seasons league position, the fact is at home we were absolute cannon fodder and that's not what I paid to see.

If the club want to retain or possibly even build on attendances, then they better start looking to bring proper talent to the club and not the English back-water pish that has mostly come through. David Davis was a fantastic signing, yet we couldn't keep him. What's the ratio of gems to dross that we've seen being signed for this season? Butcher can say what he likes about the season starting early, but he knew that this was the case and he didn't prepare adequately for it.

Jay, I think your logic's a bit hazy on this one. Davis was a loan, he was always going to be going back to Wolves. It was just a question of when. As for those signed this year, I wouldn't count Golobart, Williams, Tudur Jones as "back water pish" (more like proper talent, especially Tudur Jones) and the only real dross might have been Eldred. I wouldn't say that Butcher could have accounted for serious injuries to two of the above either, but there you are. I'm not that happy about recent displays against the OF either, but remember this is also the team that put 6 past Kilmarnock. Things are simply not as bad as you insist that they are. Neither is the "nonsense trotted out" about last season. Those looking at it in a different way to you are giving you facts here - we finished better than in any previous SPL campaign. If you considered us to be "cannon fodder" I'd be interested to find out to whom.

Finally, Doofers Da is right - it is your (and every other ICT fan's) problem what happens here - if you are a fan, you are connected to the Club. It's a two way street as far as supporting a club goes and if nothing positive goes in, you can be fairly sure that nothing positive will come out.

[kencar]

In his earlier post Jay 7 says "As things stand, it's going to be a very long, long time before I ever pay to get back into that stadium again."

How is the club supposed to get where you want it to be (however unrealistic that may be) if nobody goes along and gives support to the club when it needs it?

To be honest, that's not my problem. Nor is it any supporters problem. As I said originally, I went to games last season in the hope of being entertained. You can trot out whatever nonsense you like about last seasons league position, the fact is at home we were absolute cannon fodder and that's not what I paid to see.

If the club want to retain or possibly even build on attendances, then they better start looking to bring proper talent to the club and not the English back-water pish that has mostly come through. David Davis was a fantastic signing, yet we couldn't keep him. What's the ratio of gems to dross that we've seen being signed for this season? Butcher can say what he likes about the season starting early, but he knew that this was the case and he didn't prepare adequately for it.

Jay, I think your logic's a bit hazy on this one. Davis was a loan, he was always going to be going back to Wolves. It was just a question of when. As for those signed this year, I wouldn't count Golobart, Williams, Tudur Jones as "back water pish" (more like proper talent, especially Tudur Jones) and the only real dross might have been Eldred. I wouldn't say that Butcher could have accounted for serious injuries to two of the above either, but there you are. I'm not that happy about recent displays against the OF either, but remember this is also the team that put 6 past Kilmarnock. Things are simply not as bad as you insist that they are. Neither is the "nonsense trotted out" about last season. Those looking at it in a different way to you are giving you facts here - we finished better than in any previous SPL campaign. If you considered us to be "cannon fodder" I'd be interested to find out to whom.

Finally, Doofers Da is right - it is your (and every other ICT fan's) problem what happens here - if you are a fan, you are connected to the Club. It's a two way street as far as supporting a club goes and if nothing positive goes in, you can be fairly sure that nothing positive will come out.

Best finish was 2005/2006 under Charlie Christie ~ 58 points against last seasons 53

[Scotty]

Bottom line is that following any football team is a roller coaster .... a few lows about at the moment, but those will make the highs seem even better when they return.

Trust me .... I know what I am talking about for once !!! Over and above the ICT lows (and highs) I experienced at home in Inverness for years, and from afar more recently, I have also watched Toronto FC for the last five years and that has been an exercise in futility at times !!!! But good times are around the corner for both clubs ..... I have to believe that, other wise what would be the point !!!

[SMEE]

The Good times will not return under the leadership of Butcher, Im pretty sure of that. He has ripped the heart out of the club with his insistance to do things his way....and the result is, things are as dire as they ever were for ICT fans. But the players have to shoulder blame too...as they are supposed to be Professional, and in the dozen or so games i have seen them this season, they have been pathetic and lacked desire, passion and effort.

I am a realist, and while i would concede, ICT are currently roughly in the position i would expect them to be.......id be a lot happier if they were to get beat...they did so with at least a bit of fight about them

[CaleyD]

How do you work out that Butcher "ripped the heart out of the club"???

You say he did it by doing things "his way"...is that not what a Manager is suppose to do? Were you not one of the ones getting their knickers in a twist when their was talk/rumours of various Board Members/Share Holders interfering with how the team was run? How should things be done if not in the way of the person who is employed to do the job?

I suspect we're just going to come back to the "He got rid of Duncan and Munro" argument...but humour me anyway!!!

[SMEE]

How do you work out that Butcher "ripped the heart out of the club"???

You say he did it by doing things "his way"...is that not what a Manager is suppose to do? Were you not one of the ones getting their knickers in a twist when their was talk/rumours of various Board Members/Share Holders interfering with how the team was run? How should things be done if not in the way of the person who is employed to do the job?

I suspect we're just going to come back to the "He got rid of Duncan and Munro" argument...but humour me anyway!!!

It pleases me to say Don that you are in fact WRONG in questioning my part about Board members or anyone else picking the team. I THINK i am correct in saying i didnt state ONE opinion on that matter...in fact...i dont even remember reading such a thread!

ICTs strength was always in making a few changes each season and not going for wholesale changes. Butcher has thrown that philosophy out the window. Id say the amount of dross he has brought in in his time hear vastly outnumbers the amount of quality players he has brought in, but that of course. is just my own opinion.

Also.....the football being served up for the most part, is utter PISH, as poor and directionless as it was under brewster

Edited February 28, 2012 by SMEE

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I would just love to see the narcissism subdued by a post match statement that read along the lines of - "I have to accept part of the responsibility for that display today - I got it wrong".

The players evidently have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Butcher has every rite to do things his way but he is really pisssing me off with his constant projecting and apportioning of that blame. I am also more cheesed off that we tend to put together a good display and then put in a lamentable one and I often feel that it is because of a lack of continuity in team selection and system and is far too reactive in a knee jerk sense.

[starchief]

Smee's right. Remember the spirit and fight when the likes of Munro, Duncan, Tokely, Black and McBain were all regulars? Let's remind ourselves of the accomplishments of these lions

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/8062736.stm

[SMEE]

Smee's right. Remember the spirit and fight when the likes of Munro, Duncan, Tokely, Black and McBain were all regulars? Let's remind ourselves of the accomplishments of these lions

http://news.bbc.co.u...rem/8062736.stm

Under whos leadership?

[+DoofersDad]

Some interesting thoughts on here. There may be differences about where we think we ought to be and how well we are actually doing but there does seem to some general agreement that we could and probably should be doing better. Notwithstanding the disruption to team selection that injuries have caused the level of performance does seem to be very inconsistent.

But I would like to respond on a couple of points. The first is regarding some of the so called "pish" that Terry has brought in. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. The financial position of the club forces him to bring in players who are basically off the radar of others and who are hardly setting the world on fire in whichever lowly club he gets them from. Some, like Stratford or Aldred don't make the grade but some, like Jonny Hayes most definately do. Players can look promising based on what you see or hear of them in a different setting but until they arrive and become part of the set up at ICT and get used to the Scottish game you have no real idea whether they will blossom or not. I think enough of his signings have proven their worth to make the policy justified. And remember there is still a good crop of young local lads on the books who have every chance to prosper if they are good enough.

The second is on the question of what it is we want from the club. Some are clearly unhappy about the quality of football on display even though we are competing well in the top league in Scottish football. Some have said previously they would rather watch a more attractive brand of football even if that meant we played at a lower level. That's maybe a valid point but not one I agree with. I want the club to win at the highest level for two reasons. Firstly because at the end of the day it is those successes that one remembers and treasures, but also because I honestly believe that on balance, regardles of the style of football played, the more successful the club is the better the quality of football is and the more enjoyable it is. I'm sorry, but if people thought we played "pish" in finishing 7th last season then they failed to appreciate an awful lot of good football. Realistically with the wages we can afford there will always be a significant element of "pish" in the mix or esle the players would be signed by Celtic and the like. Just accept that there will always be some "pish" and enjoy the good stuff that is on offer as well.

[Renegade]

unless tokely has slept with butchers wife or something then why would they have gone from offering tokely a new contract to despising him?

A lot can happen in football in two years. It wasn't that long ago Butcher was going on about what a great captain Munro was - less than a year later he punted him.

to think that butcher would get rid of players because of personal agenda or because he didnt like them is ludicrous.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Renegade

[Renegade]

I think the thing that annoys me is not the loss, it's the manner. What's going on at this club? On Sunday the players didn't seem up for it, against Celtic in the cup the players didn't seem up for it, against St Mirren the players didn't seem up for it. The question needs to be asked here, what's the deal? This "it was the Old Firm we lost to" mentality doesn't wash with me. Sunday's lot was a shadow of the team they once were, even from earlier in the season and it was back to the old "concede a goal and the heads go down" kind of thing. I think the fact of the matter is this - the "Butcher Revolution" was far too much of a jump in the dark and it never should have happened and sadly with the current climate, we'll probably have to go through the same again which again will distrupt things.

People are talking about not being entertained. I can only agree. The football being served is not value for money and is as dull and as lifeless as it was with the team Brewster had when he was fired. Butcher said last season, that the style of football was going change, it hasn't. If anything it's gone backwards.

I now look to next season. For now I think the club is safe this season, but with the strong likelihood of County being in the SPL next season, I worry for our chances of staying up. County will be no Dunfermline, Hamilton or Gretna. I won't be at all surprised if County have a better team than us next season as well - if they don't have one already. We'll have a hard season next season if things don't improve and I'm not sure I have faith in Butcher to do so.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Renegade

[+bughtmaster]

To all the negativity, I would like to say something, actually I would like to say a lot. However I shall in this instance and in this moment of time refrain from doing so.

But I think If some of you bought a goose then you would expect it to lay a golden egg and if it didn't, you would blame the goose!!!!!!!!!!

[tm4tj]

I would also like to say something.

Take your head out of the sand and see the reality of the situation. I'm all for happy clapping, but theres not much to clap about at the moment. That does not make me a worse supporter, but it does not make me a happy bunny either.

[starchief]

Team against Rangers 2010:

Esson

McCann - Tokely - Munro - Shinnie

Hayes - Duff - Duncan - Ross

Foran - Rooney

So, are we really missing McCann and Duff. I would have thought not. Duncan can't get a game for RC in SFL1 and looked a spent figure in his last year. Rooney wouldn't stay and is a loss we struggle to patch up with freebies. So, we're missing Munro (who's miss would have been less with Hogg injury-free).

There isn't a great experiment. Duncan, Golabek, McBain were all past their best. Sanchez, Odhiambo, Duff are no big misses. Rooney (and Duff) refused contracts. Munro's a miss but given most people were calling for Proc to leave now and saying Tokely was 5th choice, are these players they will now use to beat Butcher with.

Give us back Rooney and an injury-free Hogg and we're pushing for top six again. Butcher's fault we don't have either? Not in my book. Munro is the only mistake.

[Jay_7]

Jay, I think your logic's a bit hazy on this one. Davis was a loan, he was always going to be going back to Wolves. It was just a question of when. As for those signed this year, I wouldn't count Golobart, Williams, Tudur Jones as "back water pish" (more like proper talent, especially Tudur Jones) and the only real dross might have been Eldred. I wouldn't say that Butcher could have accounted for serious injuries to two of the above either, but there you are. I'm not that happy about recent displays against the OF either, but remember this is also the team that put 6 past Kilmarnock. Things are simply not as bad as you insist that they are. Neither is the "nonsense trotted out" about last season. Those looking at it in a different way to you are giving you facts here - we finished better than in any previous SPL campaign. If you considered us to be "cannon fodder" I'd be interested to find out to whom.

Finally, Doofers Da is right - it is your (and every other ICT fan's) problem what happens here - if you are a fan, you are connected to the Club. It's a two way street as far as supporting a club goes and if nothing positive goes in, you can be fairly sure that nothing positive will come out.

Ok so I didn't say "loan signing", perhaps I should have made that clear that I knew he was a loan signing? Not sure why you're picking up on that?

Golobart - Played in 13 games for us this season. When I saw him earlier in the season he didn't impress me.

Williams - Played in 3 games this season. Scored against Rangers but looked as equally pish at defending as every other defender on the field.

Tudur-Jones - Almost entirely an unknown quantity, not quite sure why you're even mentioning him in your post?

Aldred - as you've said - dross.

Others this season:

Piermayr

Tansey

Gnakpa - Only played 3 but so far not impressed.

Past dross:

Robert Eagle

Dan Stratford

Nauris Bulvitis

Stuart Duff

Dani Sanchez

Gil Blumenshtein

Chris Innes

Alex MacDonald

Do you now see what I'm getting at? I also note that you've mentioned the Killie game where we scored 6. Did it escape your attention that I've praised the attack of this team earlier? My problem is the defence (Which conceded 3 goals in that game you mentioned by the way). Things not as bad as I make out? I can't disagree with you more, from a defensive point of view things ARE that bad.

If you really want me to go through my problems with last season in detail, I will...

August - November (4 (FOUR) Months) = 4 points. (1 draw against St Johnstone and 1 win against Hibs)

December - February (3 (THREE) Months) = 5 points (2 draws against Rangers and Hamilton and 1 win against St Johnstone)

March - April (2 months) = 4 points (1 win against Motherwell and 1 draw against Hearts)

May was our most successful home period picking up 13 points including that win against Celtic.

Still think Home games made pleasant, entertaining viewing?

Again, going to have to disagree with you completely about who's problem this is. It is up to the club to provide entertainment to get the punters through the door. Times are tough and if I don't feel like a Saturday afternoon watching us get pumped is worth £20-odd then I'm afraid I'll be keeping that in my pocket.

To all the negativity, I would like to say something, actually I would like to say a lot. However I shall in this instance and in this moment of time refrain from doing so.

But I think If some of you bought a goose then you would expect it to lay a golden egg and if it didn't, you would blame the goose!!!!!!!!!!

Pffft.

[AJS]

Its fairly obvious that you havent seen Golobart in a while then Jay_7. He was arguably one of our best players up until he got injured and is probably the reason that our defence is struggling now. Had Tudur Jones not been injured he wouldve been a key player for us this season, id happily bet money on that.

Im not going to stand up for all his signings as it wouldnt be worth the trouble. Every manager signs duds, it happens and we are hardly Man City, not all the players we bring in can be top quality. We have a budget to stick and sometimes circumstances result in us settling for what we get rather than getting what we want.

The Home form was a problem long before Butcher came in. Cast your mind back to 08-09. We were already struggling at home with only 1 win when he took over.

I may not agree with everything he's done and i may think he is not doing some things correctly at this present moment and time but the fact is i have faith in him and still believe he is the right man to carry this club forward. He has already achieved so much here in his time anyway and should circumstances e.g injuries galore not keep happening i believe there are still many good times ahead for us.

Think its all about putting 1 very bad game behind us and recapturing the form we were showing a month ago.

[Ronaldo]

As I am a man of few words I think we need a real centre forward

[Jay_7]

Its fairly obvious that you havent seen Golobart in a while then Jay_7. He was arguably one of our best players up until he got injured and is probably the reason that our defence is struggling now. Had Tudur Jones not been injured he wouldve been a key player for us this season, id happily bet money on that.

Fair enough - I can only go by what I saw of him and haven't seen much of anyone at the club since my last outing (Dundee Utd). I was also fairly critical of Andrew Shinnie at the start of the season and I'm delighted that since then, he's made me eat my words. I think we're almost there with the attack, but for next season, the defence needs a lot of change.

[lukemackay]

williams so far has been solid. against rangers we played 2 very young full backs and were punished for it the full backs were beaten easily leaving the centre backs no cover from the wings allowing rangers to put balls in our box at will. imo it wasnt the centre backs fault we conceded 4 it was the full backs there was no one cutting the supply.

on the golobart matter. well im presuming you were either at aberdeen, or dundee utd away? because after that he got dropped for 3-4 weeks and returned to the team against st mirren and rangers and was outstanding. he marked thompson out the game against st mirren with 1 mistake from a set piece and then against rangers he marked jelavic out the game.

owain from what ive seen is a quality player and when you mention duds what do you mean?

duff? you mean the the centre midfeilder that played at right back all season when we had no one else and done the job fairly well? hardly dross

dani sanchez was definatly a good player just coming into his own scoring goals setting them up he was very similar to andy shinnie and then he got injured and was out for the rest of the season. and is now tearing up the a-league in australia. again hardly dross.

i could go through all them and make a point for all of them (except stratford) but when it comes down to it terry has made more excellent signings for us like hayes, foran, cox, and andy shinnie than he has duds

hes doing a great job imo

[Charles Bannerman]

The Home form was a problem long before Butcher came in. Cast your mind back to 08-09. We were already struggling at home with only 1 win when he took over.

OK so let me play Devil's Advocate here. From the quote above, it would appear that both the management and the players (who have also changed almost totally since 08-09) are being eliminated as possible variables in this question.

So what does that leave, then, as a possible cause if there is disquiet about home form? :biggrin:

[AJS]

Its fairly obvious that you havent seen Golobart in a while then Jay_7. He was arguably one of our best players up until he got injured and is probably the reason that our defence is struggling now. Had Tudur Jones not been injured he wouldve been a key player for us this season, id happily bet money on that.

Fair enough - I can only go by what I saw of him and haven't seen much of anyone at the club since my last outing (Dundee Utd). I was also fairly critical of Andrew Shinnie at the start of the season and I'm delighted that since then, he's made me eat my words. I think we're almost there with the attack, but for next season, the defence needs a lot of change.

I agree the defence needs work but tbh i dont think it is down to lack of quality. There has never been a point this season for me where our entire back line has been fit. Everyone has been injured at least once, if not more times this season. I think the only issue for me is right back, Meekings looks decent but is injury prone and inexperienced, Proctor is crap and Piermayr seems to opt on and out an awful lot. I think if we can retain Williams and Golobart and get Hogg back to full fitness our backline is more or less sorted, even retain Tokely for the sake of competition but a steady and relatively experienced right back i think is priority.

[+DoofersDad]

Going round in circles a wee bit here. I'll make 2 points. Firstly, whilst we were defensively poor on Sunday (but well done, Proctor!) I think the rubbishing of our side is generally unfair on the team. Those few of us who actually bothered to stay to the end will have seen how hard the team tried to turn 4-1 into 4-2. They never gave up. Rubbishing our team's effort is also actually rather disrespectful for a Rangers side who played very well indeed. These were players whose future is in the balance through no fault of their own, they were hurt by the defeat to Kilmarnock and they were very much up for it. They were playing for their contracts and did themselves great credit. No shame in losing to that Rangers side.

I don't think there is a particular problem with the defence if we can keep the players we have and keep them fit. Sunday was a one-off. As I said before in this thread, between the 2 Rangers' games we conceded just 4 goals in 7 games including a trip to Parkhead to play a rampant Celtic side. That's top 3 level defending and achieved with a range of personnel. I think that is quite impressive and shows not only have we players of appropriate quality but we have good cover as well. The disappointing thing recently is that we have drawn with teams we should be beating and that's because the goals have dried up with Andrew Shinnie injured. Tade, Sutherland and MacKay have not been scoring and despite bringing Winnall in, Terry doesn't give him an opportunity. Of course, it is goals the fans want to see and if we had converted recent draws into wins then we would be well placed for top six and very few would be complaining.

So can we please stop moaning about the defence and start moaning about the strikers instead