The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Ayeseetee]

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/215987-referendum-poll/

 

 

pie & bovrils indy poll

 

 

(brit-nats might not want to look at the results yet)

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

There's less than 140 votes! That is tragic. Viewing this poll as some sort of gauge of public opinion is desperate in the extreme! You're going to need 1,600,000 YES votes to win this.

C'mon Ayeseetee...I know you can do better than this!

[Renegade]

 

Just FYI, we had a referendum on this just 3 years ago, and 2/3rds of voters chose to keep FTTP and reject PR, including every single region of Scotland.

There is a depressing parallel between that farce and the independence referendum incoming.

Voters were told by the leading parties and the media that proportional representation wouldnt work in the UK as it does in other countries because people here are too stupid to figure it out. We were told that it would confuse us having a different looking bit of paper to tick, ushering in the apocalypse when trying to count votes.

 

 

The problem with that referendum is that it seemed a lot of people just voted against it because of what Nick Clegg did.  For what it's worth, I'd like to see us have an election system akin to the French system.

[Ayeseetee]

There's less than 140 votes! That is tragic. Viewing this poll as some sort of gauge of public opinion is desperate in the extreme! You're going to need 1,600,000 YES votes to win this.

C'mon Ayeseetee...I know you can do better than this!

 

Only 134 votes but 118 yes / 16 no  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Also way to jump to conclusions I posted it here so it would get more votes and it is also why I said "brit-nats might not want to look at the results YET" can you remind me which side has been using polls to gauge public opnion the most?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

OK, I will try to do better...better together, perhaps?!!

Or as a Alex Salmond was likely saying as he spread his toast this morning, while checking the latest opinion-polls, "I can't believe it's not better!"

[Ayeseetee]

while salmond is having toast, darling and brown have started thier bogus journey in dundee I wonder why

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotlands-city-discovery-also-centre-4088148

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

while salmond is having toast, darling and brown have started thier bogus journey in dundee I wonder why

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotlands-city-discovery-also-centre-4088148

 

"IF it was down to posters and saltires, the returning officer would be weighing the votes for independence in Dundee.

For the City of Discovery is also the Yes City – and it’s not just Alex Salmond saying that.

In every street on every housing estate, the Yes flags are flying. From Linlathen to Charleston, there are posters and stickers in windows and doors on every corner."

 

 

Well I've been driving through Dundee today and, shock horror, the Daily Record is talking a load of guff! 

[Sneckboy]

"Haud on a wee bit", The Daily Record, exaggerating? Surely

[Yngwie]

I see that ICT backers/ex-directors Dougie McGilvray and Alan Savage are amongst the business people who have stuck their head above the parapet, signing an anti-independence letter drawing attention to the risks and uncertainties. 

 

Other than the banks and their plans to relocate, businesses barely get a mention in this debate, and yet they form the basis of our economy and provide most of the employment. Very few of them dare to get involved in anything political for fear of alienating about half of their customers and employees, and there can be further consequences if they want to earn/retain business with the Scottish public sector.  And then of course there's the personal abuse and threats of boycotts that Michelle Mone and Barrhead Travel faced when they expressed their views.

 

Despite the proposal that Scotland would have a lower corporation tax rate than the UK (an idea which I fully support, BTW) our business community is still resoundingly against independence, viewing it as bad for business and therefore bad for jobs, investment, tax revenues etc.  Does this concern the nationalists at all?

[dougiedanger]

I see that ICT backers/ex-directors Dougie McGilvray and Alan Savage are amongst the business people who have stuck their head above the parapet, signing an anti-independence letter drawing attention to the risks and uncertainties. 

 

Other than the banks and their plans to relocate, businesses barely get a mention in this debate, and yet they form the basis of our economy and provide most of the employment. Very few of them dare to get involved in anything political for fear of alienating about half of their customers and employees, and there can be further consequences if they want to earn/retain business with the Scottish public sector.  And then of course there's the personal abuse and threats of boycotts that Michelle Mone and Barrhead Travel faced when they expressed their views.

 

Despite the proposal that Scotland would have a lower corporation tax rate than the UK (an idea which I fully support, BTW) our business community is still resoundingly against independence, viewing it as bad for business and therefore bad for jobs, investment, tax revenues etc.  Does this concern the nationalists at all?

Not really, independence is an opportunity for all, including businesses, to reinvent themselves, and the best business people will adapt and thrive in a prosperous independent Scotland.

[Yngwie]

I think we'd all like the people of Scotland to make the right decision, for the right reasons and based on the right information - but it's very hard to do that when both sides are incredibly selective with thefigures they quote.  Warped versions of Scotland's level of tax revenues and public spending come up time and time again, and with no particular agenda, I found this summary on the BBC to be quite clear and helpful.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

[robbylad]

Businesses can leave if they want. The business opportunities won't leave with them. As for banks leaving? They're more likely to go to Republic of Ireland than England. They're pretty concerned about UK leaving the EU. If that happens we'll lose the banks anyway.

[Ayeseetee]

"Haud on a wee bit", The Daily Record, exaggerating? Surely No!.gif

 

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/Independence-Debate/Punters-backing-Scottish-independence-11082014.htm

 

"100 per cent of William Hill punters in Dundee and Motherwell have backed independence"

 

google isn't hard to use if you don't believe the daily record!

[Scarlet Pimple]

The Royal Bank of Scotland is more English-based now than otherwise. Their service has become appalling with huge fees and penalties for slight miscalculations.   They also have removed telephones from  their branches on the pretext that they want to spend more time servicing their walk-in clients when in fact the real reason is to save money. Now. a person who lives overseas cannot contact his/her branch direct ---- have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous--in this day and age they don't even have email communication. I have to 'phone a general number who, in turn, contacts the branch.

New cheque books were sent to the branch but no one thought to send them on to me. So I complained via the general number and they assured me that the distribution centre would henceforth send them to me direct. Yesterday I found that  this had not been done and the instruction still on the system was to send them to the branch. 

 

So would devolution have any effect on the lack of service to the client?

[clacher_holiday2]

I'm not overly shocked with some business 'leaders' beingworried about change.

If everybody had 7 figure+ private pensions, an army of low paid employees to call upon, multiple properties, no need for socialised health care or housing and found the wider welfare system a massive burden in itself, then I'd be all for a NO vote myself.

As it happens the Brittish Empire hasnt exactly worked out for everyone. Independence might not either but then the choice for voters in September is the mediocre status quo versus potential, worst case scenario is things stay the same as they always have been.

Edited August 27, 2014 by clacher_holiday2

[dougiedanger]

I'm not overly shocked with some business 'leaders' beingworried about change.

If everybody had 7 figure+ private pensions, an army of low paid employees to call upon, multiple properties, no need for socialised health care or housing and found the wider welfare system a massive burden in itself, then I'd be all for a NO vote myself.

As it happens the Brittish Empire hasnt exactly worked out for everyone. Independence might not either but then the choice for voters in September is the mediocre status quo versus potential, worst case scenario is things stay the same as they always have been.

 

And that's just Yngwie. 

[Ayeseetee]

No vote is apparently a threat to the scotland national team according to a fifa scource

 

http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140828/192417905/Scottish-No-Vote-Will-Lead-to-Questions-Over-Its-International.html

 

 

not sure how credible it is but this particual topic has been talked about before!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

Given that FIFA recently admitted Gibraltar as a full member, they are more likely to allow a Shetland team in than to kick Scotland out.

[Ayeseetee]

Given that FIFA recently admitted Gibraltar as a full member, they are more likely to allow a Shetland team in than to kick Scotland out.

 

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1957&newsCategoryID=3&newsID=8736

 

The sfa felt that team gb was a threat to scottish football and this is way bigger than that so not sure what to think but I feel better after you brought up Gibraltar thanks!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[closed]

I think we'd all like the people of Scotland to make the right decision, for the right reasons and based on the right information - but it's very hard to do that when both sides are incredibly selective with thefigures they quote.  Warped versions of Scotland's level of tax revenues and public spending come up time and time again, and with no particular agenda, I found this summary on the BBC to be quite clear and helpful.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

Agree Yngwie but the beeb as an information source can be a bit "selective" even if I take my Yes blinkers off. This is a corporation with a vested interest in retaining TV licence income and only temporarily withdrew from the No campaigning CBI under a bit of pubic pressure. By all means look at the beeb but I'd recommend a BusinessforScotland presentation as a challenge on that. Know firm No people who have been convinced by this fairly honest explanation of the numbers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8cKHcZn60.

[Yngwie]

Cheers, but I'll still place more reliance on the BBC quoting GERS figures and applying a certain degree of accountability and journalistic standards than on anything presented by a Yes campaign group!

[Ayeseetee]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scots-politicians-caught-up-in-rent-1388577

 

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_MPs_who_voted_for_Iraq_War

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Murphy#WikiLeaks

 

"it was revealed that throughout 2009, Jim Murphy was in charge of organising a coalition of Unionist parties whose aim was to "block an independence referendum" in Scotland. The documents state:Throughout 2009, UK Secretary of State for Scotland Jim Murphy played a leadership role in organizing the opposition parties"

 

 

 

 

 

And he has the cheek to moan about having an egg thrown at him......

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

No politician deserves to have an egg thrown at them, whether they're Jim Murphy, David Cameron, Nick Griffin or Alex Salmond. I always think it reflects badly on the side of the thrower. It's a defeatist last-resort to remain relevant in an argument they feel they're losing!

 

Not quite sure what your 'beef' is here.

Link 1 is from October 2012 regarding the MP's expenses scandal. No party came out of this 'smelling of roses' - MP's from all parties were culpable.

Link 2 is now 11 years old. It's past being of any relevance to the current debate.

Link 3. Isn't that his job to fight to keep the Union together?

 

Sounds like you've a personal agenda against the man! While you've been busy scouring links for his character assassination, you surely chose to miss this one!

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-labour-mp-jim-murphy-2867079

 

"Scottish Labour MP Jim Murphy one of the first to rescue injured people at tragic helicopter crash at Glasgow pub"

[Ayeseetee]

It's a defeatist last-resort to remain relevant in an argument they feel they're losing!

Link 1 is from October 2012 regarding the MP's expenses scandal. No party came out of this 'smelling of roses' - MP's from all parties were culpable.

Link 2 is now 11 years old. It's past being of any relevance to the current debate.

Link 3. Isn't that his job to fight to keep the Union together?

 

 

"Scottish Labour MP Jim Murphy one of the first to rescue injured people at tragic helicopter crash at Glasgow pub"

 

 

Okay so firstly "It's a defeatist last-resort to remain relevant in an argument they feel they're losing"

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/twitter-troll-guilty-of-salmond-assassination-jibe-1-3525287

 

Link 1 HE STOLE FROM THE TAXPAYERS and you think it's okay because others did it guess what most partys are mixed up in that child abuse scandel but thats okay is it?

 

Link 2 140,000 innocent men women and children were killed in that ILLEGAL war if time has relevance tell the jews to get over ww2 and maybe we should give germany its army back?

 

Link 3 If it was leaked on wiki-leaks its probably a bad thing especially as he tried to keep it from the scottish people

 

 

I would expect any other human being to run in and help those in need and I praise him for that but the scales are still heavily outweighed.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

I'm reluctant to qualify your response with further comment - but I must clear-up one or two points.

 

There's just something particularly 'low' about egg throwing during peaceful, political protest. It's akin to spitting in football. Even Alex Salmond has condemned it - and I commend him for not trying to make political capital out of his 'death threat', which was an isolated, stupid remark by an individual on Twitter.

 

I'm perplexed as to how you reason that I 'think it's ok' that MPs fiddled their expenses. I absolutely did not infer that. If anything, it made me extremely angry.

I was pointing-out that Jim Murphy wasn't the only MP 'at it'. SNP members were also guilty.

The child abuse scandal is not relevant to the Scottish Independence debate.

 

I'll pre-empt your response, "100s of kids are abused and that's not relevant - and YOU THINK IT'S OKAY?!"

No. That's not what I'm saying.

 

Similarly, the Iraq war. (And the Second World War). Obviously, very relevant in an historical context - but 'ammunition' for a Scottish Referendum debate?

Yes, Jim Murphy voted for the Iraq invasion, whilst the 5 SNP MPs voted against. In my book, the SNP can claim the moral-high-ground on that one, in not wanting anything to do with a war unsanctioned by the UN.

But surely, the Iraq war has no cogency in a deliberations about the shape, prosperity and viability of a future independent Scotland?

 

I fail to see the issue with Jim Murphy working behind the scenes in trying to preserve the Union. That's his job - it's politics.

It can be a 'dirty' business at times and most politicians can be accused of being 'economical with the truth'.

Indeed, only recently (Nov 2012) Alex Salmond had to apologise to the Scottish Parliament for misleading statements.

 

But this ballot is not about Alex Salmond or Jim Murphy. Yes, they're big players representing the different sides of the argument - but they, as individuals, are not representative of YES Scotland and Better Together, respectively.

 

It's far bigger than either of these two politicians. Anybody who thinks Scotland would be a better place as an independent state but is reluctant to vote YES because they 'don't like Salmond' is missing the bigger picture. (and vice-versa, of course).

 

Trying to dish-the-dirt on single member of the opposing camp is surely just that - missing the point.

This isn't simply about the here-and-now, and a like or dislike of the current political incumbents...It's about the future. Our future.