Livingston FC

[Bush]

It looks to me like he'd rather see Livingston liquidated......................than admit that he's got the club in to one helluva mess and walk away and allow someone else be the saviour.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that he got them into this mess, although he certainly hasn't done enough (if anything) to reverse the very challenging position they were in. The bottom line is that Livi were already living well beyond their means (as can unfortunately be said for a lot of clubs these days) prior to his arrival and he just hasn't been able to either a] reverse this trend, or b] plough in enough cash of his own to cover it.

That said, his current stance regarding the interim manager's pay-off offer is pretty ridiculous!

Edited July 29, 2009 by Bush

[CaleyD]

Of course he got them into this mess.....they had a debt of less than ?300k when he arrived, and 12 months later they have a debt of ?1.7 Million.....who else is to blame for that?

[caley100]

Wonder what happened to the ?125k they got for Leigh Griffiths?

[RiG]

Wonder what happened to the ?125k they got for Leigh Griffiths?

Put towards his outstanding rent for his executive Edinburgh flat more than likley.

Rumours are that Massolini has refused the deal and has claimed he has money to put into the club himself.

[Renegade]

I'd feel sorry for the fans of any other team , even County (maybe), but Livi deserve all they get.. 2nd rate Gretna

Livi were living well beyond their means LONG before Gretna even got into the SFL

really?

At least Gretna went out with a bang while Livi have been disolving very slowly for years

It's better to burn out than to fade away as Neil Young once said.

In the 1970s. It was the "Rust Never Sleeps" album I think.

When did I say that???

At least Gretna went out with a bang while Livi have been disolving very slowly for years

It's better to burn out than to fade away as Neil Young once said.

So what is 63-year-old Neil Young doing these days? :(

Still going strong from I can see.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

If Livingston are so wracked by debt Massone's lawyers have probably concluded he can get more than ?25,000 as a creditor assuming he is one. Therefore it makes business sense given that he bought the club for ?1 ostensibly not for philanthropic reasons but to enhance his investments. The administrator has explained the state of the books and it is quite possible Massone is no fool in terms of business investments. If he is the leading creditor he may walk away quite happy to seek new challenges which is quite legitimate but not necessarily ethical.

[CaleyD]

The shares are worthless and the only way he would get any return (other than the offer on the table) is if the club had any money left after all other creditors had been paid....not very likely.

Selling his shares would not remove his claim under a CVA for any money he is owed...unless it was a condition of the offer that he waived any claim on that.

[caley100]

Anyway... its looking more than likely we will be playing Airdrie Utd this season instead of Livvy, bit of a shame for the fans but personally i've never liked the club.

[Yngwie]

Got my dancing shoes on, now where's their grave?

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Personally, I don't think we should glory in the fact that any team is going to the wall, however much we dislike them. That's two Scottish teams in just over two years. Its a pretty fine line between solvency and going out of business. I know both Gretna and Livingston took the route of 'rich benefactors', and who can blame them, only to be let down in the end. Its no different here in England. Even at premiership level, it only needs some of the multi millionaire owners to tire of their new toy, and the clubs would be left in queer street.

[The Mantis]

The other thing is - we've pretty much followed them up and down the leagues. Made the SPL a couple of years after them, stayed there for 5 seasons, dropped out, just like them. It's tempting fate to gloat in case we follow them out the door someday.....

[TopSix]

The other thing is - we've pretty much followed them up and down the leagues. Made the SPL a couple of years after them, stayed there for 5 seasons, dropped out, just like them. It's tempting fate to gloat in case we follow them out the door someday.....

Great post. As much as I dislike Livingston FC I do feel for their fans. If it was ICT I would be devastated. In terms of the future of our club remember there were rumours of a amalgamation with county? What are peoples views on a ground share and using county as our training ground?

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

The SFL certainly have a tricky decision today. Do they change their rules, take a big risk on two travelling salesmen keen to take over an ailing business whilst challenging Massone's legal skills and knowing Stirling are in quite dire straits too? Then of course we have Clyde...................

[CaleyD]

Looks like Livi have been given a stay of execution and if Massone doesn't sell his shares by start of the season they will be investigating a rule change to allow them to transfer the league membership to another company and will demote them to the third division. If he does sell then they get a 15 point penalty and continue in the 1st.

I didn't/don't want to see Livingston go to the wall, but I think the SFL are playing with fire by even considering the option of transferring the league membership. They are doing nothing more than telling club owners that it's ok to rack up huge debts then bail because clubs will be permitted to continue regardless. It also sends the message to fans that it doesn't matter who they let run their club, as they can simply walk away from them...and any debt/problems they create at any time.

IF the SFL do allow the transfer of league membership then I get a feeling they could face some serious legal challenges on past decisions where they've stated categorically that it could not be done.

[SMEE]

Don.....what do you mean by transferring the league membership? what does that entail?

[stevico1]

Looks like Livi have been given a stay of execution and if Massone doesn't sell his shares by start of the season they will be investigating a rule change to allow them to transfer the league membership to another company and will demote them to the third division. If he does sell then they get a 15 point penalty and continue in the 1st.

I didn't/don't want to see Livingston go to the wall, but I think the SFL are playing with fire by even considering the option of transferring the league membership. They are doing nothing more than telling club owners that it's ok to rack up huge debts then bail because clubs will be permitted to continue regardless. It also sends the message to fans that it doesn't matter who they let run their club, as they can simply walk away from them...and any debt/problems they create at any time.

IF the SFL do allow the transfer of league membership then I get a feeling they could face some serious legal challenges on past decisions where they've stated categorically that it could not be done.

Totally agree Don, I also don't want to see Livi to go to the wall but the rules are there and shouldn't be altered to suit individual needs

Edited July 30, 2009 by stevico1

[CaleyD]

It means that the SFL will turn around to Massone and Livingston Football Club Ltd and tell them that they are removing their league membership. They will then pass that membership on to whatever new company is created by the fans and new investors....albeit relegating them to Div 3 in the process.

That means that any creditors will only get a payment based on whatever assets currently exist at Livingston, which is next to nothing given the fact that (like us) they don't own the stadium. No CVA, No continued trading to try and work of the debt....nothing.

The SFL would basically be wiping their hands of any issues and paving the way for other clubs to do the same in the future....and if they do that then you can be sure that there's very few (if any) banks who will be willing to give clubs an overdraft, or any companies willing to give them any kind of credit terms.....it's risk enough giving these things to clubs as is, but the SFL look to be proposing the removal of ANY protection a clubs creditors might have.

Shocking that they are even considering it, absolutely shocking.

[Heilandee]

Livi saved at the last minute.

LIVI SAVED

[Jay_7]

SFA in being shown up to be incompetant shocker!

If what CaleyD is suggesting goes through, how long will it be before those involved with Airdrieonians and Clydebank take the SFA to the cleaners?

Edit: In fact if this does go through, surely every other club in the SFL will have a say? Knowing that no one will ever lend to a club again has surely got to raise a few eyebrows?

Edited July 30, 2009 by Jay_7

[CaleyD]

Tough call....are they likely to vote against a system that will cause them a few problems borrowing, or for a system where they can run up and wipe out shed loads of debt with relative ease and no consequences???

Major shareholders/chairmen in football clubs in this country haven't exactly got a great track record when it comes to honouring the debts they generate in the name of the clubs they own/run, so I wouldn't be confident they would be doing what's right here!!!

[TopSix]

Tough call....are they likely to vote against a system that will cause them a few problems borrowing, or for a system where they can run up and wipe out shed loads of debt with relative ease and no consequences???

Major shareholders/chairmen in football clubs in this country haven't exactly got a great track record when it comes to honouring the debts they generate in the name of the clubs they own/run, so I wouldn't be confident they would be doing what's right here!!!

there's talk of them being docked points. At least we'll be safe next season...

On a plus point they will have a threadbare squad and there's a Wagamama's in Livingston

[AJS]

Despite being bailed out i can see the them going down next season.

[CaleyD]

What happens with the club is irrelevant....it's the damage that's done to Scottish Football in order to get them there that is the biggest issue.

[RiG]

Utterly disgraceful decision and yet not surprising in the slightest.

[CaleyD]

With Massone having accepted an increased offer for his shares then it's unlikely that the SFL LMC will pursue any rule change at this time.

All that remains is for the other SFL Member Clubs to decide what, if any, punishment should be imposed on Livingston for bringing the game and league into disrepute and for the new owners to agree some kind of settlement with the creditors.

For the rest of Scottish Football there's a HUGE lesson to be learned on just how badly things can go wrong and why it doesn't make any sense for a club to under the control of a single person or small group of people.