FAO George Fraser

[PullMyFinger]

If you decide to go along with the charade that is Donkey Doncasters restructuring of the league I personally will not return to TCS until you are no longer part of the set up in Inverness. I believe that a 10 team league will be to the detriment of football in this country and this club. I will not pay good money to watch the club I love die. Do the right thing George.

I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. Homer

[tm4tj]

[old caley girl]

Really disappointed to see that the bully boys seem to have won our board over. Personally I support ICT and want what is best for our team and if that helps Scottish football then fine but I fail to see that putting the so called good of scottish football before whats best for ICT is in our interests. I cant see how the 10 - 12 set up is good for anyone myself however.

[Sorted]

If you decide to go along with the charade that is Donkey Doncasters restructuring of the league I personally will not return to TCS until you are no longer part of the set up in Inverness. I believe that a 10 team league will be to the detriment of football in this country and this club. I will not pay good money to watch the club I love die. Do the right thing George.

I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. Homer

Nothing like a worthless threat to start off the evening.

To somehow turn the farce that is SPL reconstruction into an attack on our Chairman takes a degree of negative thinking I can only aspire to. No doubt your strategic, well thought out threat will have George in turmoil as he wrestles with the rights and wrongs of the saga whilst, at the same time, having to deal with the devastating impact on his life caused by your post.

FFS grow up - Bart

[robbylad]

For Stewart Milne to suggest, as he did on the radio today, that some clubs are trying to balance the good of scottish football against self interest is the height of hypocrisy. He can't wait to fall in line with whatever the old firm want and when did they look out for anyone other than themselves?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Unbelievable - do you seriously think that Uncle George is a muppet ? Our board have shown great strides forward in the last 18 months and there is no way that they would sell our souls for such folly, even if they were enticed with any form of lucrative short term proposal.

[robbylad]

Unbelievable - do you seriously think that Uncle George is a muppet ? Our board have shown great strides forward in the last 18 months and there is no way that they would sell our souls for such folly, even if they were enticed with any form of lucrative short term proposal.

I hope you're right.

10 team spl is a recipe for disaster.

[caleyboy]

Unbelievable - do you seriously think that Uncle George is a muppet ? Our board have shown great strides forward in the last 18 months and there is no way that they would sell our souls for such folly, even if they were enticed with any form of lucrative short term proposal.

And will you be going to Grassa's new pub for a pint IHE?

[PullMyFinger]

If you decide to go along with the charade that is Donkey Doncasters restructuring of the league I personally will not return to TCS until you are no longer part of the set up in Inverness. I believe that a 10 team league will be to the detriment of football in this country and this club. I will not pay good money to watch the club I love die. Do the right thing George.

I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. Homer

Nothing like a worthless threat to start off the evening.

To somehow turn the farce that is SPL reconstruction into an attack on our Chairman takes a degree of negative thinking I can only aspire to. No doubt your strategic, well thought out threat will have George in turmoil as he wrestles with the rights and wrongs of the saga whilst, at the same time, having to deal with the devastating impact on his life caused by your post.

FFS grow up - Bart

The deconstruction needs votes from member clubs, if they are not forthcoming we have the status quo. I'd rather that than any change that is detrimental to my club. Worthless? In as much that a few hundred pounds a season is worthless in the grand scheme of things, I suppose so. A threat? No, it's not a threat it's a statement, a fact.

In this economic climate I wonder how many other fans would opt to keep their money for essentials rather than fork out to see a devalued product? I don't think I'm alone in my reasoning and I fear for the future of ICT if it goes ahead but I for one will not pay for the privilege of witnessing the demise of football in Scotland.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

[Johnboy]

Nothing like a worthless threat to start off the evening.

To somehow turn the farce that is SPL reconstruction into an attack on our Chairman takes a degree of negative thinking I can only aspire to. No doubt your strategic, well thought out threat will have George in turmoil as he wrestles with the rights and wrongs of the saga whilst, at the same time, having to deal with the devastating impact on his life caused by your post.

I wouldn't say PMF has instigated a worthless thread.

What would be your preferred form of SPL reconstruction?

Or, to put it another way which approach do you think our club should favour? That proposed by TB, which has been well documented or the one that now appears to have found favour by GF - and of course, our largest shareholder.

[Yngwie]

If our Board have moved more in favour of the proposal, I'd be fairly sure that it's because they are now of the opinion that it is in ICT's interest.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it's in the interest of ICT fans, though.

[Johnboy]

If our Board have moved more in favour of the proposal, I'd be fairly sure that it's because they are now of the opinion that it is in ICT's interest.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it's in the interest of ICT fans, though.

My response to that would be that TB doesn't think it is in ICT's interest.

Kind of boils down to a case of who's opinion you respect or agree most with.

[PullMyFinger]

You can look forward to journeymen teams battling it out in boring hoof it up the park football.

Players like Ross, Shinnie, Rooney, Hayes, Sutherland, Doran, Cox, Odhiambo, etc. wouldn't get a look in. Instead of playing to win, play not to lose. I can see nothing positive so won't be there to see it happen.

I didn't intend this to become a debate about league deconstruction but merely to bring attention to the club that every action has a reaction.

I am not being negative, I am positive. Positive that in another few years the same debate will be raging on but with a different set of teams.

[Caley Stan]

In this economic climate I wonder how many other fans would opt to keep their money for essentials rather than fork out to see a devalued product? I don't think I'm alone in my reasoning and I fear for the future of ICT if it goes ahead but I for one will not pay for the privilege of witnessing the demise of football in Scotland.

Not many. People who stop going to watch Scottish football simply because two teams move from the top tier to the second tier are probably looking for a reason to stop going anyway. It will make very little difference to the standard of football or the competitiveness of the league. The fact that the proposal flies in the face of public demand does stick in the craw, but it's not radical enough to have a serious effect on attendances, and certainly doesn't represent the "demise of Scottish football". This is Chic Young talk.

[Alex MacLeod]

Having read the BBC article I am none the wiser as to what the proposals are or whether George Fraser and anyone else has made a U-turn. I'm sure that todays meeting will have put more information on the table and perhaps, in due course we'll all know exactly whats being proposed, not just in terms of the 10 - 12 SPL but on how it will operate and what effect on the lower leagues.

Quoted below is a snippet from the BBC article complete with Georges comments. Personally I see nothing more than sensible talk from the man. Unless I know a great deal more about the set up. How it will affect youth development. The pitfalls of relegation. The system of relegation and promotion. The share out of money and much else to boot then I cant comment more than to say my reaction to a 10 team league remains the same. I'm against it as a stand alone league but if the positives outweigh the negatives of the two league system then who knows.

While the top 12 clubs are largely in agreement over many of the original proposals made by the strategic review group - including the reintroduction of a winter break and an earlier start to the season - the key one of league reconstruction remains a significant point of contention.

However, Inverness Caledonian Thistle chairman George Fraser - whose own manager, Terry Butcher, has criticised the proposals - suggested that it was moving towards a positive conclusion.

"There were more constructive talks today," he told BBC Scotland. "We'll have another final chat in a few weeks time. So, more progress, more talks.

"I think the next time we meet, there should be a vote taken.

"Things are moving forward. I think you have got to take a balanced view on the overall thing

"You take your own personal interests into it. But, for the good of Scottish football, you have got to listen to other people's opinions as well and hopefully we will come to the right decision at the end of the day."

[PullMyFinger]

Not many. People who stop going to watch Scottish football simply because two teams move from the top tier to the second tier are probably looking for a reason to stop going anyway.

If only it was that simple. I don't need a reason to stop going, I need a reason to keep going when those who rule the game disregard the wishes of the fans. Does anyone know of anyone who believes things can improve under Doncaster's leadership. I don't.

It will make very little difference to the standard of football or the competitiveness of the league.

Is that a very little better or a very little worse?

The fact that the proposal flies in the face of public demand does stick in the craw, but it's not radical enough to have a serious effect on attendances, and certainly doesn't represent the "demise of Scottish football".

Why is it that our opinions don't matter? That really, really irks me.

This is Chic Young talk.

Naw, just naw!

[Sorted]

Nothing like a worthless threat to start off the evening.

To somehow turn the farce that is SPL reconstruction into an attack on our Chairman takes a degree of negative thinking I can only aspire to. No doubt your strategic, well thought out threat will have George in turmoil as he wrestles with the rights and wrongs of the saga whilst, at the same time, having to deal with the devastating impact on his life caused by your post.

I wouldn't say PMF has instigated a worthless thread.

What would be your preferred form of SPL reconstruction?

Or, to put it another way which approach do you think our club should favour? That proposed by TB, which has been well documented or the one that now appears to have found favour by GF - and of course, our largest shareholder.

JB

Don't think this is a worthless thread just think it could have been aired without the need for threats or unecessarily having a go at the Chairman. For what it's worth, as I have posted on other threads, I think, like PMF, the proposed tinkering will deliver nothing. Our position is difficult as it appears from the press that everyone has rolled over and acceptance is inevitable. Do we stick to our ground and risk being stuck out on a limb on other matters or do we bow to the crowd? I'm not sure.

Where I disagree with PMF, for two reasons, is that this change will not make anything worse. Firstly, the product in Scotland is so bad I fail to see how it could get any worse. Secondly, the proposals change nothing, therefore nothing will change. My frustration stems for the total lack of desire to undertake real change that will allow our game to develop across the board, not change to protect the financial self interest of the SPL members and the wannabes.

What would I do if I was George? Don't know to be honest but, what I do know, is that whatever he decides it will be, in his opinion, what's best for the club. Can't really ask any more than that can we?

Will I stop going to games? No, it won't make any difference as I don't go to as many as I don't go to as many as I used to anyway as a direct result of the product on view.

As for TB, he's a first class manager who would be grossly offended if the Chairman told him how to pick his team. Perhaps, even though his outburst was first class and correct, he should accept that he should treat the Chairman in the same manner.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Sorted

[CaleyD]

I don't buy into the claims that we (the fans) should just roll over because "it'll make no real difference".

Where we are now is, IMO, largely a result of events that happened 20 to 25 years ago when fans sold out to the private business model on the promise that it would bring their clubs more money, better players and larger degrees of success. What we've actually seen is the business side of football stumble from one disaster to another with it's overspending, debt and what's fast becoming annual cases of administration...or worse, total club oblivion. Progress on the playing side has, for the large part, been non existent and it could be argued that we've actually gone backwards on the international stage.

The same can be said of the situation where we sold our soul to the TV companies. They promised to bring us great riches....we all bought in to it....and then we fell flat on our arse when we screwed it all up and the TV companies dropped us.

We're now at the point where, once again, business and sport collide. Unsurprisingly, as the game is now run by businessmen then all the suggestions for change concentrate on bringing in more money and the impact on the product on the pitch seems only to appear as an occasional side note, and even then it's spookily reminiscent of the promises we were given before about them bringing in more money and that somehow equating directly to a better product on the pitch.

When are we going to learn? When are we going to take back our game?

[starchief]

I don't think the fans need to roll over if they don't like it. Only they can change the decision through direct action like protests, walk-outs boycotts, forsaking their club for ICT, Killie and (was it St J?).

Fraser though has done his best it would seem. He's try to persuade the other clubs to go for an expanded league. He failed. That option is now gone. Only the fans can resurrect that, not ICT's board. Now, Fraser has the option of deciding on a 12 team league with split or a 10 team league. There is no other option available to him. I don't see much honour in applying the veto as all it does is make a lot of enemies with little in return (unless you favour a 12 team league).

From what I've read, ICT's done their best to try for a bigger league. No blame attached to the board. Perhaps the fans could learn about democratic uprisings and autocratic rulers from Tunisia and Egypt. Only mass protests could change their mind. The three rebel clubs fought and lost.

[Charles Bannerman]

I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. Homer

Doh! Homer Simpson.

[Charles Bannerman]

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

Is there a barber's around here where I can get my beard trimmed? Karl Marx.

But apart from that, I simply see the 10 team league as being to the benefit only of the Old Firm and maybe one or two other clubs for whom relegation is permanently highly unlikely and to the detriment of the leading clubs outwith that tiny and exclusive group (as well, of course, as that of the fans.) Clubs which are now unable to remain permanently inside the top 10 as opposed to the top 12 previously will be consigned to oblivion -financial and otherwise - and there is no way the SPL can come up with any bribe payment big enough to make that danger financially attractive.

Here in Inverness, the devastating consequences of dropping to 1st Division football from the SPL have already been felt and there, but for the grace of God, a rousing finish to last season and Dundee bottling it, still would go Caley Thistle.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[CaleyD]

I've deliberately not made comment about George Fraser and what his thoughts may or may not be.....we don't know enough about his (the club/boards) thoughts on the matter, what they like/don't like about the proposals etc to be making any judgement on how well we may or may not think they are representing the interests of ICT and Scottish Football....which is why I asked both the club and the supporters trust to consider an open meeting between club and fans (neither club or trust seemed to see the point in such a meeting).

I also don't lay blame for the situation at the feet of the current crop of Chairman/Boards either. Most of them have inherited the situation Scottish Football now finds itself in and any decision to bring about the required changes (in football as a whole, not just on league structure) would be a brave/bold one which, for many, would go against their natural instincts as businessmen....many of whom also have large sums of money invested. Not easy to ask them to give up the power/control they have shelled out for....and easily argued "why should they?"

Fans don't want the proposed changes, managers and players don't want the proposed changes and some Chairmen are having to be almost bribed/blackmailed into accepting it. What makes the 10 or 12 guys who are pushing through this proposal think they know better than everyone else? Those few Chairmen who are against it have a choice....they succomb to the pressure of the other chairmen and turn their back on the thoughts/wishes and opinions of employees and customers/fans, or they do what they should be there to do and represent the views of the club and tough luck if that upsets a few people. As I said before, this is a major example of business and sport colliding, and it only serves to emphasise everything that is wrong with the running of the game.

[Ronaldo]

I know his my seem daft or radical, but IMO if we go to a 10 team SPL there will need to be some incentive to play football and score goals, perhaps looking at the points/more points for lots of goals.

The "SPL survival football" as we know at present is going to be nothing like what the poor fans are going to have to watch with a 10 team league!

I will simply will do something else on a Sat afternoon if I have too watch my team scared to play football.

[PullMyFinger]

I don't recall having a go at the chairman, merely stating my intentions. It is Mr Fraser's actions that concern me more than his beliefs. Nothing personal at all, I have nothing but respect for Mr Fraser (and the whole BoD) and their beliefs, but my beliefs don't allow me to continue to watch as in my mind my club will be the proverbial turkey voting for Christmas.

[PullMyFinger]

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

Is there a barber's around here where I can get my beard trimmed? Karl Marx.

I'll gladly do that for you Charles.

#desperately searches for cut-throat razor#