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Should Hughes be SACKED?


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Personally I thought we were back to our usual fast paced, direct style of play tonight rather than the slower, short passing game that was on show in recent fixtures.   Maybe Hughes was trolling us

I'll have you know that Yogi lets me pick the team every week.

Brill is actually well on the way to rivalling or bettering the amount of clean sheets in a season at 20 (a record currently held by Ryan at 23) This doesn't tally with the current hand-wringing about

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Jhesus what does he have to do ?

Please all write 100 times - Terry Butcher fecked up our season. John Hughes took on a job that was always going to be difficult. If we had been awarded a stonewall late penalty we would have won a cup.

Hughes will be counted for next season.

 

Don't forget that if TB had been in charge at the semi-final, no substitution would have been made when Gary Warren was sent off, and we wouldn't have made the final.

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Reading this thread reminds of the old saying 'Fools criticise a job half done'

Now it is my opinion that it was not just County that strengthened their team since the start of the season and if so called pundits on here cannot see that the opposition is playing better now than they did at the start of the season, then they are indeed fools.

We did start well.... against weakened sides .... however these teams have all knitted now, especially Aberdeen, Dee Utd, and Ross County.. just to name three!

Maybe now this topic can be binned as even BT were on about the fans not happy with the manager and I feel this is unfair on the manager, players and the more knowledgeable Board but most of all on the majority of fans of ICT who have more wit than come on here and spout utter nonsense, when a playing plan is unfolding.

You lot resemble youngsters going on a journey and start shouting "are we there yet" before the car is out of the drive!

Give it a rest .... you did not get your choice of manager ... get over it!

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One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

absent friend: you seemed to think all the criticism was because of one lost match in the cup. It's not. Nor is it about one derby.  Yogi deserves his moment but that doesn't make him a great manager.  Or even the best we could have.

 

Hughes has to 'educate' himself from this win. If he learns from this, fantastic.  Everyone's happy.  I continue to have my severe doubts.

 

But why not let the team and manager have their moment without this 'they one a single match so it proves Yogi is the new Fergie' argument?

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One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

absent friend: you seemed to think all the criticism was because of one lost match in the cup. It's not. Nor is it about one derby.  Yogi deserves his moment but that doesn't make him a great manager.  Or even the best we could have.

 

Hughes has to 'educate' himself from this win. If he learns from this, fantastic.  Everyone's happy.  I continue to have my severe doubts.

 

But why not let the team and manager have their moment without this 'they one a single match so it proves Yogi is the new Fergie' argument?

Well Chief, if you think a wee club like ICT, with our limited resources and geographical position, can attract a 'great' manager you are indeed deluded.

Yes we could maybe have attracted Hartley but there is no way of knowing if he would have been a 'fit' for ICT.

Butcher had an enormous anti feeling when he arrived due to his historic bad management, now it is all tears that he has left us.

Maybe Hughes will be history repeating itself and in three years we will have Mr Chief with keyboard tears because our favourite has again departed.

As for the derby result .... The final whistle was very welcomed .... so no, I do not think one result makes or breaks a manager.

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One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

absent friend: you seemed to think all the criticism was because of one lost match in the cup. It's not. Nor is it about one derby.  Yogi deserves his moment but that doesn't make him a great manager.  Or even the best we could have.

 

Hughes has to 'educate' himself from this win. If he learns from this, fantastic.  Everyone's happy.  I continue to have my severe doubts.

 

But why not let the team and manager have their moment without this 'they one a single match so it proves Yogi is the new Fergie' argument?

Well Chief, if you think a wee club like ICT, with our limited resources and geographical position, can attract a 'great' manager you are indeed deluded.

Yes we could maybe have attracted Hartley but there is no way of knowing if he would have been a 'fit' for ICT.

Yet again, we get we should accept Yogi because we can't get Mourinho.  Please see my point: "even the best we could have" - that doesn't mean a great manager.  See the New Manager thread for reasonable affordable names.

 

Butcher had an enormous anti feeling when he arrived due to his historic bad management, now it is all tears that he has left us.

Maybe Hughes will be history repeating itself and in three years we will have Mr Chief with keyboard tears because our favourite has again departed.

Given that I was the one that first named Butcher on this forum as a potential manager before he joined, it doesn't count for me.  No need to be so personal or angry though.  All I'm doing is disagreeing with you that Hughes is a long-term solution.  I'm sure we both want what's best for ICT.  You have one view, I have the other.

 

I'll be happy to be wrong with Hughes.  But, when he leaves, I also think we will be shouting "why did we even take him on?"  I don't dislike the guy, I was a fan of his style of play as a player (which definitely wasn't passing from the back), I wrote an article about how he could take Hibs to be the new third force in football but I also see I was wrong there and his style of football was neither entertaining nor successful.  Hopefully, I'm wrong again.  I just don't think I am and it will cause us damage short, medium and long-term.

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I too am a Yogi doubter who, despite the difficult times at the begining and middle of his tenure, expressed no similar doubts about Butcher.

 

I too think Hughes is a decent amiable enough man and I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

There seem to be those who view expressing concerns about how the manager is going about his business and about his previous history as being somehow disloyal to the club. No such thing, whether we are right or wrong, the vast majority of us comment in what we sincerely believe to be in the club's interests.

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Well Mr Chief,you may find this difficult to accept but I am in no way angry at comments re our manager - disappointed, of course - I would rather a united fan base and this would leave no room for BT SPORT to offer an opinion that Hughes is under pressure from the fans. He is NOT under pressure from the fans but from, as I have stated , a small number on here who I feel are wanting instant success from a new system.

Now as far as being personal, I merely replied direct to you as I am doing at this point and if you feel this is too personal, I apologise.

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Chums--it's not that we blame you or abhor the expression of  your opinions. It's just that it's sssooooooo depressing to always hear negativity, negativity, negativity.

 

How does that help anyone improve the club of feel better about the moments that are less than sterling?

It's like listening to a girning bairn ALL the time instead of having our lives enriched by looking at their lovely wee faces puckered up in cute little smiles ....ahHHHH! Don't you just love these cute little guys? :wink:

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I think Yogi is the ideal manager for our club.

  • He's a down to earth guy,
  • he doesn't like the long ball,
  • he NEEDS this job,
  • he has inherited a squad who seem to get on with him,
  • he has given first team football to another TWO youth products (three home grown players in our squad is a massive achievement for a club which does not have the money to contribute to the programme) 
  • he's the man we can afford financially.
  • he doesn't carry any obvious baggage
  • by the end of this season he will have a squad playing the way HE feels is the way forward - with or without wingers
  • money permitting ( the boards responsibility) he will do his best to sign players HE feels can do the job HE wants done.

I really have confidence in this guy, I don't expect him to achieve overnight but I do believe he will get there. I also have realistic targets for our club - regular top six placing - anything else will be a bonus! 

 

Please stick with this guy - support him - make him feel wanted - make him feel a part of the family some say we are. We used to chant Butcher's name ( a man who kicked us in the teeth) and he responded in his usual way - wouldn't it be a nice gesture to treat Yogi in the same way? I'm sure his grin would be even wider!!!   

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I want Hughes to succeed very, very much.  I like him and as I've said on several posts I do feel that he and ICT have the potential to be a perfect match.

 

What puzzles the bejezus out of me is why he'd resort to this tippy-tappy passing ethos when we have such strength in playing an attacking game.

Yogi's been in charge of two great performances in tinkwall and had us playing some great attacking football and (rightly) earned a lot praise for it.

So why try and change the playing style so radically?

And also why do it as such a time when we have a huge backlog of games to play and the players are tired?

IMO during this time they should have been told to play to their strengths, get a few wins on the board - some positive adrenaline further helping during a crazy fixture pile up.

 

Anyway I hope he's learnt something about the squad and players and what the majority of fans want to see during all this.

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If Hughes wins 1 of his last 5 he'll have bettered Butchers end of Jan to end of season from last season with 5 wins. TB only got 4, and Hughes now sits level.

 

Wow!  That's an interesting stat.

We've not been great lately against the other top half teams so it should be an interesting last few games.

 

I actually think beating last seasons points total after the improvement in some of the other teams in the league (Aberdeen and Utd. being 2 prime examples) this season would quite a positive achievement.

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I too really want Hughes to succeed - if he's learnt from Dungwall that's to his credit.  But some people on here seem to resent any view that doesn't reflect unqualified support.  What's a forum for?  Surely any manager would expect fans to discuss his tactics and performance, give praise where due and criticism likewise.  And yes Absent Friend, he was under pressure - those boos against Motherwell weren't for the players.

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Put it this way, Im sure Hughes knows that this job could well be a win or bust for him. If he fails here its very unlikely he'd ever get another decent job. For me, that could be a blessing in disguise. He's eager to succeed.

Butcher was in a similar boat. Fail and he'd probably struggle to find work, at least as a manager. He'd find it easy enough getting pundit work.

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Put it this way, Im sure Hughes knows that this job could well be a win or bust for him. If he fails here its very unlikely he'd ever get another decent job. For me, that could be a blessing in disguise. He's eager to succeed.

Butcher was in a similar boat. Fail and he'd probably struggle to find work, at least as a manager. He'd find it easy enough getting pundit work.

 Would be interesting to see what the Hibs board would do if they go down.

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Chums--it's not that we blame you or abhor the expression of  your opinions. It's just that it's sssooooooo depressing to always hear negativity, negativity, negativity.

 

How does that help anyone improve the club of feel better about the moments that are less than sterling?

It's like listening to a girning bairn ALL the time instead of having our lives enriched by looking at their lovely wee faces puckered up in cute little smiles ....ahHHHH! Don't you just love these cute little guys? :wink:

I wouldn't consider most of what is on this thread negative at all.  A few have certainly had it in  for Yogi from the start and will jump on anything to justify their pre-conceived views but I think that most share Macduffer's view that they really want Hughes to succeed.  I don't know why there are so many people who interpret criticism as negative.  Criticism is made to draw attention to things you think are not right and much that has been on here is not just criticism, it is constructive criticism in that it is giving positive suggestions for improvement.  Of course nobody likes to be criticised, but the best managers and the best performers actually welcome it. Indeed, processes of objective criticism of individuals are key management development tools.  It is only by being honerst about the moments that are, as you put it it, "less than sterling" that you can properly identify and analyse weaknesses and address them to improve performance.  Personally I think Hughes has the potential to be a very good manager indeed, but the Motherwell match was the most alarming 90 minutes of football I have ever witnessed and I make no apologies for saying so.

 

What is negative is to refrain from criticism when things are not as they should be.  That's a sure way to mediocrity.  Let's applaud the team when they do well but equally let's criticise when criticism is due.  Of course, some of the criticism offered will be good and some will be complete rubbish but most will be made with the best interest of the club at heart.   If the manager and the players at this level can't use criticism to analyse their own performance then they really have no business being here.

 

Just to illustrate the point.  If you want someone to go from A to B and see them setting out on what you believe to be the road to C.  What do you do?  Do you,  like me, say "Woah! where are you going?  That's the road to C" or do you say nothing trusting that the person knows what they're doing.  If you take my line they may say "thanks but there's a short cut to B this way" or they may just say "So it is, thanks for letting me know"  Either way, the "criticism" is welcomed and they get to B in the end.  Of course they may just ignore you and insist it is the right road and then end up with egg on their face when they get to C but at least you are no worse off than if you had said nothing at all.  If you say nothing at all there may be a short cut but equally the person may end up at C and be pretty annoyed you saw them going on the wrong road but said nothing.

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Just to illustrate the point.  If you want someone to go from A to B and see them setting out on what you believe to be the road to C.  What do you do?  Do you,  like me, say "Woah! where are you going?  That's the road to C" or do you say nothing trusting that the person knows what they're doing.  If you take my line they may say "thanks but there's a short cut to B this way" or they may just say "So it is, thanks for letting me know"  Either way, the "criticism" is welcomed and they get to B in the end.  Of course they may just ignore you and insist it is the right road and then end up with egg on their face when they get to C but at least you are no worse off than if you had said nothing at all.  If you say nothing at all there may be a short cut but equally the person may end up at C and be pretty annoyed you saw them going on the wrong road but said nothing.

 

Have you tried Google maps?

:tongue:

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As we stand today we are in a far better position than possibly one other season - positive or negative?? I hope we continue to have so many bad seasons. The Butcher stats being unearthed are the norm...believe me supporting this team for so long you get used to it....

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Spot on Caleyboy.  Agree with all you say on this. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I think Yogi is the ideal manager for our club.

  • He's a down to earth guy,
  • he doesn't like the long ball,
  • he NEEDS this job,
  • he has inherited a squad who seem to get on with him,
  • he has given first team football to another TWO youth products (three home grown players in our squad is a massive achievement for a club which does not have the money to contribute to the programme) 
  • he's the man we can afford financially.
  • he doesn't carry any obvious baggage
  • by the end of this season he will have a squad playing the way HE feels is the way forward - with or without wingers
  • money permitting ( the boards responsibility) he will do his best to sign players HE feels can do the job HE wants done.

I really have confidence in this guy, I don't expect him to achieve overnight but I do believe he will get there. I also have realistic targets for our club - regular top six placing - anything else will be a bonus! 

 

Please stick with this guy - support him - make him feel wanted - make him feel a part of the family some say we are. We used to chant Butcher's name ( a man who kicked us in the teeth) and he responded in his usual way - wouldn't it be a nice gesture to treat Yogi in the same way? I'm sure his grin would be even wider!!!   

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I'm getting sick and tired of the Butcher talk, why assume that people who dont want Hughes here are Butcher fanbois?  I was delighted when he buggered off to Hibs and if you look back far enough I wanted him to bugger off to Barnsley over a year ago to prevent the mediocre end to last season we were surely going to have. 

 

I like all of you want whats best for ICT, what we have now is a manager who has to fight against his own principals and philosophy to pick a winning team, which will do no good for anyone in time.  Between now and the end of the season, either the fans or the manager will be proved wrong.  If we lose when playing direct then Hughes will whinge about educating the players and when we lose with his tippy tappy garbage, we'll whinge about him being stubborn.

 

I for one can't wait for the no doubt exciting times ahead in the Yogi era, my biggest fear with him being such a hot commodity in world football is that future generations of ICT fans won't be able experience the vision of the man as he progresses beyond where we can take him.  It takes a special insight and talent to notice that Barcelona are quite good at football, thus copying them might work, fantastic stuff.

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I want Hughes to succeed very, very much.  I like him and as I've said on several posts I do feel that he and ICT have the potential to be a perfect match.

 

What puzzles the bejezus out of me is why he'd resort to this tippy-tappy passing ethos when we have such strength in playing an attacking game.

Yogi's been in charge of two great performances in tinkwall and had us playing some great attacking football and (rightly) earned a lot praise for it.

So why try and change the playing style so radically?

And also why do it as such a time when we have a huge backlog of games to play and the players are tired?

IMO during this time they should have been told to play to their strengths, get a few wins on the board - some positive adrenaline further helping during a crazy fixture pile up.

 

Anyway I hope he's learnt something about the squad and players and what the majority of fans want to see during all this.

 

I've never got the impression that Yogi wants to abandon the attacking game...far from it.  He just views the squad as having the potential to play it on the deck with a bit more pace and style than his predecessor.

 

He's been saying for weeks that it's all about finding the balance and that balance was found in the match in Dingwall.  The challenge now is to use that to build confidence in the squad and have them believing they can do that on a regular basis.

 

I don't think he has tried to change things as much as some people make out...although he has had a lot of change forced upon him through injury, suspension and schedule.  The exact same thing happened to TB and will doubtless happen to us again in future.  The difference now is that we have almost a full squad that has some match experience and is ready to take to the field when called upon.  We also have a manager with more than one idea as to how the team can be set up to either overcome problems with injury/suspension or counter opposition tactics.

 

Did anyone else see the fixture congestion coming back at the start of December?  That is when Yogi would have been forming his plan for the remainder of the season.  Not saying you can't/shouldn't deviate from that plan to react to stuff that comes up, but there's little to be gained from doing a complete u-turn on it.  All that does is put doubt in the mind of your players...especially if you have their buy-in and belief of the new stuff your introducing.

 

We don't know that playing any differently would have yielded better results...in fact the only evidence we have on which to base any real thoughts on that is previous seasons and massive dips in form at the turn of the year were a regular occurrence under TB using the "don't change a thing and keep shoe-horning players into unsuitable positions" philosophy he adopted.  If anything, logic shows that without change a dip was highly probable...on that basis, is not better to at least try something different in an attempt to achieve a better outcome?

 

Had we not had a managerial change we could very well have been sitting in the exact same position as we are now.  Some would be arguing that TB had run the course with us and couldn't take us any further, others would be hammering him for failing to adapt/change to the situation, others would be defending him on the basis that we're punching above our weight and were in top 6 for second year running....blabbidy blabbidy blah.

 

(Slight tangent in response to remarks on negativity/criticism and not at all in relation to the quoted posted)

 

All that discussion around are the team playing the best, are they set up the best, should the manager do this or that, the manager is the best thing since pre-sliced bagels etc is all fantastic stuff...and it;s what I used to enjoy about partaking in the forum.  These days there's an almost constant underlying tones of vitriol, abuse, personal digs and damn right nastiness which is either aimed directly at other posters or at the manager, players, club, CJT...everything basically.

 

Anyone who thinks for one second that such things fall within the bounds of constructive criticism is seriously deluded.  We seem to have slipped into a world where people don't know the difference between abuse/critique and CTO becomes more and more of a cesspit every day as a result.

 

I withdrew my assistance as a moderator/admin on the forums partly because of pressure of work elsewhere and the difficulty from trying to wear too many hats....but what to give up was made easier because my conscience and personal standards meant I was no longer comfortable supporting the direction that things were heading in.

 

I don't read and/or contribute to the vast majority of the forum any more because it's not a nice place to spend any time.  I find it quite literally sucks the life from me...and I say that as someone who used to get a great deal of motivation and encouragement from a lot of the discussions that took place.

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I want Hughes to succeed very, very much.  I like him and as I've said on several posts I do feel that he and ICT have the potential to be a perfect match.

 

What puzzles the bejezus out of me is why he'd resort to this tippy-tappy passing ethos when we have such strength in playing an attacking game.

Yogi's been in charge of two great performances in tinkwall and had us playing some great attacking football and (rightly) earned a lot praise for it.

So why try and change the playing style so radically?

And also why do it as such a time when we have a huge backlog of games to play and the players are tired?

IMO during this time they should have been told to play to their strengths, get a few wins on the board - some positive adrenaline further helping during a crazy fixture pile up.

 

Anyway I hope he's learnt something about the squad and players and what the majority of fans want to see during all this.

 

I've never got the impression that Yogi wants to abandon the attacking game...far from it.  He just views the squad as having the potential to play it on the deck with a bit more pace and style than his predecessor.

 

He's been saying for weeks that it's all about finding the balance and that balance was found in the match in Dingwall.  The challenge now is to use that to build confidence in the squad and have them believing they can do that on a regular basis.

 

I don't think he has tried to change things as much as some people make out...although he has had a lot of change forced upon him through injury, suspension and schedule.  The exact same thing happened to TB and will doubtless happen to us again in future.  The difference now is that we have almost a full squad that has some match experience and is ready to take to the field when called upon.  We also have a manager with more than one idea as to how the team can be set up to either overcome problems with injury/suspension or counter opposition tactics.

 

Did anyone else see the fixture congestion coming back at the start of December?  That is when Yogi would have been forming his plan for the remainder of the season.  Not saying you can't/shouldn't deviate from that plan to react to stuff that comes up, but there's little to be gained from doing a complete u-turn on it.  All that does is put doubt in the mind of your players...especially if you have their buy-in and belief of the new stuff your introducing.

 

We don't know that playing any differently would have yielded better results...in fact the only evidence we have on which to base any real thoughts on that is previous seasons and massive dips in form at the turn of the year were a regular occurrence under TB using the "don't change a thing and keep shoe-horning players into unsuitable positions" philosophy he adopted.  If anything, logic shows that without change a dip was highly probable...on that basis, is not better to at least try something different in an attempt to achieve a better outcome?

 

Had we not had a managerial change we could very well have been sitting in the exact same position as we are now.  Some would be arguing that TB had run the course with us and couldn't take us any further, others would be hammering him for failing to adapt/change to the situation, others would be defending him on the basis that we're punching above our weight and were in top 6 for second year running....blabbidy blabbidy blah.

 

(Slight tangent in response to remarks on negativity/criticism and not at all in relation to the quoted posted)

 

All that discussion around are the team playing the best, are they set up the best, should the manager do this or that, the manager is the best thing since pre-sliced bagels etc is all fantastic stuff...and it;s what I used to enjoy about partaking in the forum.  These days there's an almost constant underlying tones of vitriol, abuse, personal digs and damn right nastiness which is either aimed directly at other posters or at the manager, players, club, CJT...everything basically.

 

Anyone who thinks for one second that such things fall within the bounds of constructive criticism is seriously deluded.  We seem to have slipped into a world where people don't know the difference between abuse/critique and CTO becomes more and more of a cesspit every day as a result.

 

I withdrew my assistance as a moderator/admin on the forums partly because of pressure of work elsewhere and the difficulty from trying to wear too many hats....but what to give up was made easier because my conscience and personal standards meant I was no longer comfortable supporting the direction that things were heading in.

 

I don't read and/or contribute to the vast majority of the forum any more because it's not a nice place to spend any time.  I find it quite literally sucks the life from me...and I say that as someone who used to get a great deal of motivation and encouragement from a lot of the discussions that took place.

 

Very interesting CaleyD. From one who seemed to spend most of his time on CTO to one who feels "it quite literally sucks the life from me" is sad to say the least. I honestly believe that people should only criticise if they have the knowledge to do so and have a valued solution to the problem. Football is a subject that people feel they know but in reality there will be very few, if any, qualified to pass the comments they do. It makes me laugh, and sometimes annoyed, when I read some of the comments made by people who probably never kicked a ball in their lives at any reasonable level let alone at the level this club is now at. It's time some should really wind their necks in and let the professionals get on with their jobs!

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