ICTFC - Disciplinary Guidelines

[Scotty]

The Official Website has taken the step of publishing the guidelines under which they take action against supporters.

I wont comment on the merits of the individual cases discussed on here over the last few weeks, but as you can see in that article, and in the attached PDF file, it is pretty clear cut about what will and will not be tolerated ...... It is a sad fact of life, but the club can and will get punished by the SPL for breaches in security/behaviour that make it into the officials' reports.

A few choice parts of the statement ......

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"The Club has an obligation under its Ground Safety Certificate and SPL/SFA Rules for ensuring the safety of the fans, its staff and any contracted employees at matches at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium. The recently introduced SPL Rules on Unacceptable Conduct puts further commitments on the Club for the actions of both the home and away fans at matches."

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"At game v Arbroath on Tuesday 28th August which had an attendance of 1,246 there were two recorded incidents both involving persons in the home stands. One person in the West Stand was arrested by the Police for a Breach of the Peace (for alleged foul and abusive language and failing to desist) which is a criminal offence. This person has been written to by the Club informing him that he is currently banned from the stadium but inviting him to a meeting with senior management at the Club to review his position.That meeting has now been arranged". [so not a life ban as suggested by posters on here !]

"The second person was ejected from the West Stand for foul and abusive language to a steward.This 17 year old and his parents met with the senior management of the Club and having admitted the offence, was banned for five games.The Club's disciplinary process includes the right of appeal but written confirmation has been received that no appeal against the Club's action is being made".[This other person was also mentioned in the postings and it seems has accepted his 'wrongdoing'.]

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"At the game v Hearts on Saturday 22nd September .... two people were refused admission to the South (away) Stand for being under the influence of alcohol. During the game two people were ejected from the South Stand for persistent standing. Details of these persons will be reported to Hearts. A person from the North (home) Stand was arrested by the Police for the criminal offence of Breach of the Peace for entering the field of play. That person will have his position reviewed by the senior management of the Club but in the meantime will be banned from the Stadium".

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guidelines.pdf

[Proctor]

OK point taken, can we stop talking about this now. its clear that there will be no leway here so lets just get on with supporting the club.

[12th Man]

Seems fair enough,also applies to all stadiums not just us,as long as the away fans are closely monitored

'Sit down for the Caley Jags'

[RiG]

hr]

"During the game two people were ejected from the South Stand for persistent standing. Details of these persons will be reported to Hearts.".

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And the rest of the Away fans that were standing? Given that one steward stood next to persistent standers at the back of Section D in the Away I was surprised to see that particular steward take no action.

[Mee]

All fair enough but when a handful of home fans round about you are being chucked out for standing and singing at the same time as a thousand away fans are standing and singing with no stewards anywhere near them its pretty hard to take.  :008:

[Scotty]

I agree. consistency has always been the problem, but it looks like these new SPL "guidelines" are going to force clubs to be consistent as they will be responsible for the behaviour of both home and away fans in their stadium

[Yngwie]

In the west stand on Saturday, when there were about 8 fans and 4 stewards, we got told to sit down. Naelifts asked a steward if he would apply that rule if he was stewarding the south stand. The steward had a look a them standing, and quite happily admitted that he would just leave them to it, which seems to be what they are trained to do.

Inconsistent and unfair? Yes.

But if you put yourself in the position of a steward faced with hundreds of folk standing, you just wouldn't bother, would you?

[RiG]

Inconsistent and unfair? Yes.

But if you put yourself in the position of a steward faced with hundreds of folk standing, you just wouldn't bother, would you?

I think I'll have a bit of work to do when I return to the office tomorrow. Actually, it might be a bit too much for me so I don't think I'll bother my arse to do anything about it.

Yeah, I can see my boss liking that.

There are plenty of stewards going to enforce the sitting down policy that ICT are so **** bent on employing to home fans.

It's no exaggeration to say that as we have risen through the divisions going to the football in Inverness has become less  and less fun with each season.

[Mee]

How come its safe for you to stand for a whole match in the lower leagues, but as soon as you hit the top league all of a sudden your life is in danger if you stand? How come some people get singled out for removal while others are invisible to stewards? Or does it just depend on who the safety officer is that day?  :008:

[+Gringo]

They kick the footballs harder in the SPL and they could cause you damage or injury if they knock you over with the force of impact......I think! The lower divisions use softer 'balls.  :001:

[Alex MacLeod]

As I posted on the other thread its the authorities who need to be lobbyed not the club.

[Yngwie]

Thousands of folk standing up and leaving at the same time is far more dangerous than them just standing stationary.

At Ibrox they combat this danger by assigning each fan a designated departure time, staggering them from 75 minutes onwards.

[wyness_is_god]

IF its such a danger to stand up during a game, then why the feck are Stewards allowed to stand up and walk around looking for excuses to be noticed.

Some of these power tripped toss-pots (and i wont re=phrase that because that is what most of them are at Caledonian Stadium) should just sit on a seat at the front of the stand and just not be noticed unless a serious incident is starting to happen, instead of going looking for easy targets such as kids who 9 times out of 10 are going to reply with a mouth of abuse or backchat landing them into more trouble than what the original offence maybe.

A good steward is one who is not noticed.

A bad steward is one who makes a name for him/herself by creating a scene by going up-to a situation that's not out of control.

Either standing is banned in ALL stadiums no matter what the level of football, OR its allowed in ALL stadiums.

Further up the league you go, fans are punished as they go-to the game with the prices then in the stadium with the "rules" that haven't applied at lower levels. :33: :33: :33:

Somedays i think, a January afternoon jumping around on the terracing to keep warm with a howling gale off the north sea and lashing sleet at Arbroath in the 2nd Division is much more fun to being in the SPL and listening to that sectarian sh1te Rangers are freely allowed AND get off with blasting out while we are told to sit down.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The bottom line is that ICT appear to be purposefully antagonising the situation. Other clubs in the SPL - allow sections to stand and sing.

[maimie]

i don't think they 'allow' it IHE but more likely turn a blind eye.

unfortunately it looks like some of the behaviour at the arbroath game kinda blew it for us.... :007:

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Same thing really Maimie - but a soiltary incident does not bring a closure. The problem is that it has become an "issue" when it was supposed to be an "experiment". I would have to say that the seeds were sown at the Dunfermline game and have cocooned since. The issues at the Pars game were never addressed.

NOBODY has been told or given any boundaries - apparently on either side - and it has just given Mike the Fuerher more ammunition to sink sommat that he was against in the first place.

North Stand fer me on Saturday and FECK them all.  :001:

[CaleyD]

People behave no better/worse at Football matches now than they did 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago - the only difference now, in terms of the SPL, is that they seem to think they have the power to re-write the laws of the land.  No Law anywhere says it is illegal to stand at a football match, no safety certificate is issued on the grounds that all people must be made to sit....these are lies and myths perpetuated by the SPL in order to try and dumb down the fans and force them in to complying.

The only time we see any real trouble is when they try to enforce these farcical rules, it is only at that stage that people (fans) cross the line in to law and commit the heinous crime of swearing or non-compliance and it is only at that stage that the police have any powers to get involved.

In short it is these "Rules" and the manner with which they are enforced that is causing the problems, not the fans - and they are only made worse by the fact that the punishment is far in excess of the crime on many occasions.

What frustrates me even more is that clubs happily accept these rules that are handed out by the SPL with very little resistance or consideration for how they will impact on the fans.  They somehow think that it will make life easier for them, when in fact it is having the exact opposite effect.  The SPL create these rules to make it look like they are combating issues such as sectarianism, which is fine if that is what the rules were being used for, but they are not, they are being used to target the "soft options" so as they can increase the stats on numbers they have taken action against and include it in the "Look at how many people we arrested in the Sectarianism and Being Disruptive etc" category.

The club can hide behind the "It's the big boys that made us do it" line all they like, but as they continue to do so they are fast losing the respect of the fans ans if they aren't careful they'll start losing the income as well.  The sooner they stop trying to treat us like we are idiots the better.

Yes, we need rules, but the rules have to be sensible and realistic and they have to be applied in the problem areas that they were intended to handle.  All rules should be justifiable and not simply exist because someone said they had too.

I accept that the SPL/Club have the right to impose any rules they see fit within the stadium, but they also have to accept that imposing these rules in the manner they do is going to bring them problems.  The "Powers that Be" need to remember that is the fans that make the club...a concept that seems to be alien to the current Chief Executive, Board of Directors and Chairman.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - for all his faults, David Sutherland was the best Chairman this club has ever had.  Not just because of what he achieved with the club in his time at the helm, but because he was upfront, honest and had the balls to stand up to the powers that be instead of bending over and taking whatever they had to dish out - those, Mr Savage, are the qualities that will earn you the respect of the fans.

[Scotty]

When I left Inverness, we were still in the first division and craic/banter from the stands was allowed, enjoyed and even encouraged. From my vantage point right above the tunnel I used to joke constantly with John Sutherland who was responsible for the matchday security and would stand (:018:) in the tunnel area and we would all try to enjoy it.

When an inappropriate comment came from me, Stu, Calum, Doresboy, Shiner or some of the others in that area he would just give us a look or a waggng finger (while laughing) and get on with it. no threats of arrest, no stewards charging up the aisles to eject us, just a man we all respected indicating to us we may have stepped over the line and us acknowledging that and toning it down. He treated us with respect, earned ours and there were no problems. ****, we even stood up for parts of the game trying to get the crowd going.

I had heard fans of other "small" teams who had yo-yoed between divisions saying that the SPL was not enjoyable and it seems that this is proving to be the case. Not only do fans have to shell out ridiculous prices for entry but the football establishment in general seems to have forgotten that it is in the entertainment business and while the main source of entertainment is hopefully on the pitch, the overall ambience of the stadium and the attitude of the staff (be they club staff, stewards or police) all adds to (or takes away from) the overall experience.

Football fans are about the most loyal customers any business can have. They start supporting their club usually at an early age and that "brand loyalty" tends to stay with them their whole life. Despite ticket, merchandise and other prices, they are not going to switch brands just because a rival brand is cheaper ! However, like any business that relies on customers, if you treat them badly they will (eventually) become ex-customers. It may take a lot more for a footie fan to reach that stage but it can, does and will happen.

ICT are in a no-win situation in some respects. They are in the SPL and as a member of the SPL have to agree to the rules and conditions of entry/membership. I agree with those that say the rules are farcical (in places) but at the end of the day ICT are forced to comply with them. If I can pick holes in ICT at all, it is in the consistency of the application of these rules and we have all seen comments where people have given examples of differences between what happens in the home areas and in the south stand. That is the gripe with ICT.

As for the rules themselves, that gripe has to be placed firmly at the door of the football authorities and it is them who should be pressured into making them more fan-friendly either through sites such as standupsitdown or through the relevant supporters' trusts of each member club. Nothing will change unless fans of all clubs join forces to make it change and some brave or forward thinking club chairmen decide to listen ........

[Ritchie Sacramento]

People behave no better/worse at Football matches now than they did 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago - the only difference now, in terms of the SPL, is that they seem to think they have the power to re-write the laws of the land.  No Law anywhere says it is illegal to stand at a football match, no safety certificate is issued on the grounds that all people must be made to sit....these are lies and myths perpetuated by the SPL in order to try and dumb down the fans and force them in to complying.

The only time we see any real trouble is when they try to enforce these farcical rules, it is only at that stage that people (fans) cross the line in to law and commit the heinous crime of swearing or non-compliance and it is only at that stage that the police have any powers to get involved.

In short it is these "Rules" and the manner with which they are enforced that is causing the problems, not the fans - and they are only made worse by the fact that the punishment is far in excess of the crime on many occasions.

What frustrates me even more is that clubs happily accept these rules that are handed out by the SPL with very little resistance or consideration for how they will impact on the fans.  They somehow think that it will make life easier for them, when in fact it is having the exact opposite effect.  The SPL create these rules to make it look like they are combating issues such as sectarianism, which is fine if that is what the rules were being used for, but they are not, they are being used to target the "soft options" so as they can increase the stats on numbers they have taken action against and include it in the "Look at how many people we arrested in the Sectarianism and Being Disruptive etc" category.

The club can hide behind the "It's the big boys that made us do it" line all they like, but as they continue to do so they are fast losing the respect of the fans ans if they aren't careful they'll start losing the income as well.  The sooner they stop trying to treat us like we are idiots the better.

Yes, we need rules, but the rules have to be sensible and realistic and they have to be applied in the problem areas that they were intended to handle.  All rules should be justifiable and not simply exist because someone said they had too.

I accept that the SPL/Club have the right to impose any rules they see fit within the stadium, but they also have to accept that imposing these rules in the manner they do is going to bring them problems.  The "Powers that Be" need to remember that is the fans that make the club...a concept that seems to be alien to the current Chief Executive, Board of Directors and Chairman.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - for all his faults, David Sutherland was the best Chairman this club has ever had.  Not just because of what he achieved with the club in his time at the helm, but because he was upfront, honest and had the balls to stand up to the powers that be instead of bending over and taking whatever they had to dish out - those, Mr Savage, are the qualities that will earn you the respect of the fans.

:thumb02: :thumb02: :thumb02:

[Scotty]

I just wanted to add ... in addition to my post above, my perceptions of watching Toronto FC this season. A stadium that regularly has crowds of over 20,000 and where alcohol is served during the game either in the concourse or from students going up and down the aisles and pouring it into plastic cups for you.

The club owners consulted with fans from the very start ... reaching out to them in October 2006 before the stadium was finished, before the team had been built or manager had been appointed. Club officials met with representatives of the various supporters groups and asked how they could work with them to make it a good experience for all. At those meetings, ground rules were agreed and the club also listened to the fans needs/wants.

In the end, it was decided that two of the three stands would be 'normal' stands where things like drums, banners, flags etc would not be allowed and where sitting down would be the norm (although standing would not be punished, fans would be encouraged to take their seats !)

The third stand - the south stand, holding around 2500 of the 20,000 capacity was designated as the "supporters section" and in this area the club would allow flags, banners, drums, a limited number of loud hailers so chant leaders could start the chants. Furthermore, the club would happily store said equipment at the stadium for the fans and have security staff bring it to the front of that section each gameday.

Various club officials regularly go onto the main TFC fan sites and ask/answer questions or listen to the gripes. One big one in the summer was the price of the food. they were ripping people off charging $13 a beer, $6 for a slice of Pizza, $5 for a burger etc but the one that got fans most worked up was $4 for a small bottle of water. It was quite hot this summer and many people at some games suffered heatstroke (myself included). After this was raised on the message boards, the club halved the price of the water in most concession stands (even if the ripoff prices remain for the other stuff !!!)

During games we stand, sing, chant, throw streamers and generally enjoy ourselves. There has been little confrontation and those very limited incidents I have witnessed where fans have been ejected or arrested have been the fans' own fault ... smoking in the stands, throwing coins or (plastic) bottles onto the pitch, 1 streaker (who soiled himself after being tackled by the police), 1 person who invaded the pitch and was arrested, the odd supporter lighting 'highway flares' (not throwing them - although one did and it burnt the plastic pitch !) ...... and thats pretty much the total of it all from 13 or 14 home games with 20K+ at each of them.

The club, for the most part, have a good relationship with the supporters (TFC fans grumble too). However, it is clear to all supporters that club policy is that if you commit any of the 'crimes' I listed above your season ticket is revoked and as there is a two year waiting list for new season tickets it pretty much means you are screwed ! Also, anyone arrested is banned from the stadium (not sure if its sine-die or not). The club apply this policy consistently throughout the stadium.

[kencar]

It looked like a home fan was ejected/arrested tonight as well from the North stand. I'm sure someone 'closer to the action' will elaborate

[tm4tj]

One guy was certainly restrained and removed after a bit of confrontation with the stewards.  Shame really, they only appeared to be guilty of creating an atmosphere and enjoying themselves.  It seemed to calm down a bit later on after some impasse was reached.  As kencar said I am sure some others closer to the action will enlighten us, but please make it factual.  A pity this as there seems to be a rift between the young guys and some stewards developing.  The noise created tonight by everybody congregating in my seat was about as loud as it gets, bouncies, mexican waves......mexican waves back.........

[Proctor]

It looked like a home fan was ejected/arrested tonight as well from the North stand. I'm sure someone 'closer to the action' will elaborate

The last three rows of section G of the north stand were occupied by fifty to sixty fans complete with a drummer. All having a great time supporting their team. The stewerd came up and told fans to sit down which most of them complied (except during the various bouncies) when fans began to stand again a boy was dragged oiut of the stand to a hoard of boos by the rightfully angry crowd.