Needs Further Debate

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

We are about to enter the most defining few weeks of our short existence - What happens in March / April and May can actually have an everlasting effect on the functioning of ICT - I really think that it is that serious - I am very conerned that relegation could be extermination or a dive downwards. We possibly have matured too quickly.

So I offer my - I accept - provocative - post on the Well Game thread - but I have included REAL concerns in it:

Although it is a wee bit premature to start worrying about the drop I am heartened that the "honeymoon" period and the slight hysteria has been quelled and a sense of reality is returning. The bubble hasnt exactly burst - It is more like bubblegum which we have to pop back in our gobs, chew a bit more and start blowing up the bubble again.

The only problem is that Brewster and the Muppets have chewed a lot of the flavour and pliability out of the bubble gum and poor Butcher will have to chew like a feckin manic billy goat to get a bubble firm and solid enuff to last till the end of the season.

Butcher inherited this squad with no time to regroup and his "signings" - apart from Foran possibly - were all "panic buys". He simply is trying to do the best with what he has been given. And dont forget that this is practically a new squad fer 2009 and players and teams take time to gel and get to know each other. And dare I ask the question - "Whos' feckin fault is that?".

Esson is prone to the odd bloomer - what goalie isnt ? Who is there (honestly) fer rite back either than Tokely - Zadi is a mare waiting to happen at left back - Granty and Pavels have looked a good pairing this year and hopefully it was a bad day at the office. If anyone can rally and coach the back four it is Butcher.

Personally I would go with Black and Kerr in central midfield and I would hook Imrie back to left midfield - pushing Foran up front with Rooney.

Imrie and Eric may run all day and have pace but neither has the composure, the forward goalscoring instincts or positioning to be regular scorers - but Butcher is playing them becos they harry defenders and can give us time and space behind them - and they make the odd hoof look an effective ploy.

Imrie and Eric may well cause the Huns a few problems with their movement and pace - if only they could score as well.

Butcher is doing as good as he could do with what he has got - Remember this is all about survival this season - no more, no less. .

As far as I am concerned we have now really hit the RED Crisis Button - I am going to get rite behind the club at as many games as possible - We have to shout and sing and encourage - Certain factions have put us in this position but we have to turn the tide.

Come on - Serious comments please - or do you disagree ?

[ICTFCkev]

:thumb04:

[starchief]

Can't agree with all that.

Butcher inherited this squad with no time to regroup and his "signings" - apart from Foran possibly - were all "panic buys".

Kerr and Foran were both big players for him at Motherwell so no surprise he got them signed up. Not sure where he got Eric from.

Who is there (honestly) fer rite back either than Tokely - Zadi is a mare waiting to happen at left back

Tokely is very under-rated. Look at the teams in the bottom six and you would struggle to find a better right-back. He looks ungainly but does a good job in my opinion. I've been waiting for DZ to fail but I have to concede that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He's now looking a terrific left-back and I don't fear him being put in anymore. I also rate Hastings as an SPL quality left-back. He's looked bad at times due to the ineffectual centre-back pairings we've had.

Granty and Pavels have looked a good pairing this year and hopefully it was a bad day at the office

I do worry a bit about Munro. He's coming in to a bad game just as we need everyone. One last chance and, if he doesn't do it, I'd drop him.

Personally I would go with Black and Kerr in central midfield and I would hook Imrie back to left midfield - pushing Foran up front with Rooney.

See - Kerr wasn't a panic buy. He's a first team player brought in by his former manager. BTW, I agree but both Duncan and McBain (and Vigurs) have played well this season, so I think we've got a few choices in that area. Foran does seem to come inn the centre a hell of a lot for a left winger. I presume that's a tactic rather than just his natural style of play.

[Row S]

I agree with most of what you say IHE, but a bad day at the office for Munro? Fraid not in my opinion. He's been pretty gash poor most of the season. His defensive clearances with the boot are shocking. He panics to thrash the ball anywhere when there is no one near him. His regular sclaffs are worse than Bobby Mann's. He can't organise the defence - Pavels has been doing that for him since he came in. He often gets on the wrong side of a defender for headers and he got roasted for pace a couple of times yesterday. Time to drop him and get him to practice how to kick a ball.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Starcheif - when ya have a week to do business ya go with what ya know - if TB had six weeks ?? Eric is "raw" and has the pace to upset SPL defenders - if TB had six weeks ?

Tokes is a legend but he is being targetted by the likes of the OF - other than that he can be sound - but we have to look fer a replacement or some Real cover.

Zadi is a real mare waiting to happen - he isnt a full back - FULL FECKIN STOP. He is going to cost us.

Who do you play in place of Munro ? - Now if TB had six weeks ?? - would Elvis have come ? Pavels needs experience - just dream about Pavels / Mann or Pavels / Dods ?? Can ya afford to chuck in Duff or Maguire - Now if TB had six weeks ??

Kerr was a "panic buy" - Now if TB had six weeks - then Kerr would have been fit ??

Foran isnt fit - Now if TB had six weeks ?? - Foran is a proved natural goalscorer AND we aint got another - have we ?

IT IS TOO FECKIN LATE - WE HAVE TO WORK WITH WHAT WE HAVE GOT.

[davieB]

I think we really need to address the issue of our front players if we're to stay up.

Imrie is NOT a striker, and while no-one can doubt his ability to chase and harry the whole match, if he can't put the ball in the net then what's the point? Same with Eric....he does a load of running, but nothing else. Plus he's way too lightweight. How many goals have they got between them since they've been playing up front together? 1 We just don't look like scoring through these two.

Foran should be pushed up front, alongside Rooney...as you say. Both are excellent in the air, so if we could actually start delivering some decent balls into the box then I'd fancy our chances far more if these two were up front rather than it being Dougie and Eric.

[davieB]

Oh, and I agree about Zadi. While it's all very entertaining watching him somehow miscontrol his way around players, they guy can't defend and he's a total liabilty in my opinion.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I think we really need to address the issue of our front players if we're to stay up.

Imrie is NOT a striker, and while no-one can doubt his ability to chase and harry the whole match, if he can't put the ball in the net then what's the point? Same with Eric....he does a load of running, but nothing else. Plus he's way too lightweight. How many goals have they got between them since they've been playing up front together? 1 We just don't look like scoring through these two.

Foran should be pushed up front, alongside Rooney...as you say. Both are excellent in the air, so if we could actually start delivering some decent balls into the box then I'd fancy our chances far more if these two were up front rather than it being Dougie and Eric.

Totally agree BUT what could Butcher do about it - He obviously looked at the front line employed by Brewster and the Muppets and must have thought - Waht the feck?

He is probably waiting fer Foran and Morais to hit fitness - Rooney is "raw" - Reckon that Rooney and Foran ar the chosen ones BUT we aint got time - And Who's fault is that ?

[Guest Muir-Jaggie]

We are about to enter the most defining few weeks of our short existence - What happens in March / April and May can actually have an everlasting effect on the functioning of ICT - I really think that it is that serious - I am very conerned that relegation could be extermination or a dive downwards. We possibly have matured too quickly.

So I offer my - I accept - provocative - post on the Well Game thread - but I have included REAL concerns in it:

Although it is a wee bit premature to start worrying about the drop I am heartened that the "honeymoon" period and the slight hysteria has been quelled and a sense of reality is returning. The bubble hasnt exactly burst - It is more like bubblegum which we have to pop back in our gobs, chew a bit more and start blowing up the bubble again.

The only problem is that Brewster and the Muppets have chewed a lot of the flavour and pliability out of the bubble gum and poor Butcher will have to chew like a feckin manic billy goat to get a bubble firm and solid enuff to last till the end of the season.

Butcher inherited this squad with no time to regroup and his "signings" - apart from Foran possibly - were all "panic buys". He simply is trying to do the best with what he has been given. And dont forget that this is practically a new squad fer 2009 and players and teams take time to gel and get to know each other. And dare I ask the question - "Whos' feckin fault is that?".

Esson is prone to the odd bloomer - what goalie isnt ? Who is there (honestly) fer rite back either than Tokely - Zadi is a mare waiting to happen at left back - Granty and Pavels have looked a good pairing this year and hopefully it was a bad day at the office. If anyone can rally and coach the back four it is Butcher.

Personally I would go with Black and Kerr in central midfield and I would hook Imrie back to left midfield - pushing Foran up front with Rooney.

Imrie and Eric may run all day and have pace but neither has the composure, the forward goalscoring instincts or positioning to be regular scorers - but Butcher is playing them becos they harry defenders and can give us time and space behind them - and they make the odd hoof look an effective ploy.

Imrie and Eric may well cause the Huns a few problems with their movement and pace - if only they could score as well.

Butcher is doing as good as he could do with what he has got - Remember this is all about survival this season - no more, no less. .

As far as I am concerned we have now really hit the RED Crisis Button - I am going to get rite behind the club at as many games as possible - We have to shout and sing and encourage - Certain factions have put us in this position but we have to turn the tide.

Come on - Serious comments please - or do you disagree ?

that is 100% SPOT ON!!!!!

[starchief]

Starcheif - when ya have a week to do business ya go with what ya know - if TB had six weeks ?? Eric is "raw" and has the pace to upset SPL defenders - if TB had six weeks ?

I can't really say much about Eric as I don't know where Butcher got him from or what he expect to get out of him.

Tokes is a legend but he is being targetted by the likes of the OF - other than that he can be sound - but we have to look fer a replacement or some Real cover.

We've got Gattheusi and Proctor, plus I like Tokely (and not just for nostalgic reasons). I don't have a big problem at RB for the rest of the season.

Zadi is a real mare waiting to happen - he isnt a full back - FULL FECKIN STOP. He is going to cost us.

Probably will make mistakes but looking too good at the mo. Just have to differ.

Who do you play in place of Munro ? - Now if TB had six weeks ?? - would Elvis have come ? Pavels needs experience - just dream about Pavels / Mann or Pavels / Dods ?? Can ya afford to chuck in Duff or Maguire - Now if TB had six weeks ??

Munro would be first choice but I worry he's losing form. If he does, I'd go for McGuire but I would give Munro the chance first.

Kerr was a "panic buy" - Now if TB had six weeks - then Kerr would have been fit ??

Foran isnt fit - Now if TB had six weeks ?? - Foran is a proved natural goalscorer AND we aint got another - have we ?

OK, I see what you mean. Brew should definitely have gone sooner but even if he had, I'd have expected Butch to bring in both Kerr and Foran, so yeah, still not panic buys IMHO but desperate situations meant they had to be put in when they still weren't ready. More semantics, I guess on this one.

[Ronaldo]

Morais has got to be starter from now he has what it takes to unlock a defence and is bound to get us a pen at some point.

[Guest Muir-Jaggie]

morais reminds me off barry wilson. when barry was taken on as a sub he always added that wee spring in the squad which always made the game faster near the end. i think we should get morais to start since hes a younger barry and has alot to offer and prove the club

[Kingsmills]

It was obvious from before the start of the season that we would struggle in the SPL without a single experienced striker on the books and that's an issue which wasn't addressed either by Brewster or Butcher in the transfer window.

I agree Imrie up front is not ideal as he's not a striker but he does provide a lot of energy in that position and dispupts opposition defences even if he doesn't carry a huge goal threat. Given our lack of resources up front I can well understand why Butcher persists in playing him as a forward.

[rinomac]

Imrie and Eric could do well this wednesday against Davie Weir on his zimmer. He definitely won't like two guys who are half the size of him and running at him all game. Grant Munro has had a few shaky games this season but I would definitely prefer him over McGuire - he gives away far too many stupid free-kicks near our box. I tould prefer to see Duff play if Munro was dropped, but I don't know how well that would work and I don't know if we can afford to be trying out things at this crucial point in our season.

[dead_ball_specialist]

You always have to try to pick holes in things to try to look clever don't you?

Dougie Imrie has been on the form of his life since Butcher came in and started playing him up front. Quite frankly, only a complete fool would be calling for him to be stuck back out on the wing.

And what exactly would it take for you to stop slagging off Lionel? He's been one of our best players since he was given a regular start, take the blinkers off. Just accept that you were wrong to write him off and you aren't as clever as you think you are.

Black was utter tosh on saturday, why should he be an automatic start? Surely Butcher's policy of picking players based on their form is the way to go. You're the guy who always used to complain about Brewster always 'picking his favourites'.

As for sticking Rooney up front... have we ever won a game where he was in the starting 11? Why would we go back to playing with a slow, cumbersome target man when playing with 2 mobile, skillful strikers has been serving us so well?

Edited March 2, 2009 by dead_ball_specialist

[Scotty]

I am content with Lionel for now. I do tend to agree that there is the potential for him to have a mare sometime and cost us, but that is true of any player in the side. He seems to have gained confidence from Butcher and listening on the radio there seem to be more occasions where he is being lauded for a good tackle than lambasted for errors in his recent run. If Butcher is picking the side on merit then we cant really argue with that. If Lionel screws up, then Hastings will come back in. Butcher was at pains to make it clear that reputation means nothing and there is competition everywhere. I like that more than picking favourites.

As for Rooney - he has only started 8 games and yes, he has been in the starting 11 when we have won (against Falkirk away) and also scored our only goal in several matches during our long run of defeats.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

You always have to try to pick holes in things to try to look clever don't you?

Dougie Imrie has been on the form of his life since Butcher came in and started playing him up front. Quite frankly, only a complete fool would be calling for him to be stuck back out on the wing.

And what exactly would it take for you to stop slagging off Lionel? He's been one of our best players since he was given a regular start, take the blinkers off. Just accept that you were wrong to write him off and you aren't as clever as you think you are.

Black was utter tosh on saturday, why should he be an automatic start? Surely Butcher's policy of picking players based on their form is the way to go. You're the guy who always used to complain about Brewster always 'picking his favourites'.

As for sticking Rooney up front... have we ever won a game where he was in the starting 11? Why would we go back to playing with a slow, cumbersome target man when playing with 2 mobile, skillful strikers has been serving us so well?

Do you ever actually feckin read my posts ?? Have another read fer fecks sake.

You really can be a very sad and bitter *******. It is called debate - airing an opinion and respecting or trying to understand the opinions of others.

Still - it appears that the majority agree with me :thumb04:

[AJS]

I really don't think that Lionel is any worse than Hastings has been throughout the season. While the man may not quite be SPL standard he is still showing certain attributes that seem to have a positive effect.

They mentioned the fact that there was a lack of decent crosses going into the box on Saturday. Thats because for the best part of an hour we had a full-back and a striker patrolling the flanks which brought very little success. Morais i think needs to start from now on and mayb'e get Vigurs back on the left flank as he seems to be forgotten about.

Russell's lack of any passing talent cost us the opening goal, yes Esson made the error but it should never have led to that. This policy of hit and hope needs to be completely abolished now. I think ideally Brian Kerr and Ian Black should be the starting pair in the centre. And like IHE said Foran is a finisher and he also wins his fair share of headers and i think that with the amount of ground that Dougie covers he should be up top with him.

It's not ideal and i can only assume that if Butcher had come in a month earlier our squad would be in much better shape. Saturday was a wake up call to realise that between now and the end of the season our best team has to play every game, no matter what.

[ICTBTTH]

i dont understand all the critiscism of DZ. Granted he looked panicky to say the least on the ball in the partick game but that seems to have been ironed out. Sure i havn't been to many games since the partick game but everyone i have managed to attend DZ has been a whole different player.

Who would replace Munro in defence? Duff is still young and who knows, Pavels might teach him a thing or two but at this stage we need all the players with experience and quality to get us out of the sh*tehole brewster has left us in. Maquire is p*sh. Too many free kicks around the box and has a tendancy to just hoof the feckin thing everytime the ball goes near him.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

It isnt criticism - it is concern. Perhaps he is just another "victim" of the Brewster and the muppets era. Lets just hope that history doesnt repeat itself. This year is just as much about passion and committment after all.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

You always have to try to pick holes in things to try to look clever don't you?

Dougie Imrie has been on the form of his life since Butcher came in and started playing him up front. Quite frankly, only a complete fool would be calling for him to be stuck back out on the wing.

And what exactly would it take for you to stop slagging off Lionel? He's been one of our best players since he was given a regular start, take the blinkers off. Just accept that you were wrong to write him off and you aren't as clever as you think you are.

Black was utter tosh on saturday, why should he be an automatic start? Surely Butcher's policy of picking players based on their form is the way to go. You're the guy who always used to complain about Brewster always 'picking his favourites'.

As for sticking Rooney up front... have we ever won a game where he was in the starting 11? Why would we go back to playing with a slow, cumbersome target man when playing with 2 mobile, skillful strikers has been serving us so well?

Aye - spot feckin on - :P :021: :D :D :D :thumb04: :018: ;) :015: :D

[cal234ey]

As for Rooney i thought he looked very good against Rangers and put himself about a bit more and closed down quicker and thought he had a very good game.

[Mr_W]

You know, this is incredible. When did we last have a debate like this on here...

The whole thread underlines one thing really. Despite a lack of obvious out-and-out striker, we have MANY various options in all other positions. That is a luxury we didn't have too much before the transfer window. Perhaps that fight for places and the springboard that TB and MM have provided, has led to the resurgence.

Yes, there will be setbacks. Yes, we will get points where perhaps we didn't expect them. BUT, collectively as a team and vocal support, as IHE says, with what we have, we WILL battle on to survive.

Thanks to a few results going our way, we now have St Mirren and Kilmarnock in our sights. With what we have in our squad, we can catch these two as well.