Dundee -V- ICT : cup final thread

[ICTFCkev]

Same old same old. Another poor performance and most of yous blame butcher. When are you going to start questioning the players for these displays. I dont think it had anything to do with tactics yesterday. It was down to a severe lack of fight.

The players were awesome in the first half and obviously had a game plan set out and stuck to it. However at half time Butcher should of known what to expect from Scumdee, especially when 2,500 ICT fans knew what was coming, and should have lined the team up to deal with this. Did he do that? No. Instead Sanchez is taking off even though he was arguably the best player on the park, and we sit back and allow them to keep coming at us, inevitably conceding 3 goals. Then Imrie and Odhiambo are left on the bench far too long for them to have any impact on the game, and the cup which was ours for the taking is snatched from our grasp.

Okay it's harsh just to blame Butcher, as the players needed to get the finger out after the interval, and if not then, then definitely after the equaliser, and they never did. But some of the reasoning as to why we lost from such a strong position has to be ointed at his tactics from 45 minutes onwards.

[Hearach]

Although extremely disappointed with result yesterday am looking at the positives to try to get over it. In the first half we played better than we have all season so far. Hayes is awesome and should get a start every week so Imrie being red carded is not the end of the world. Lads gave 110% effort which was good to see - certainly that is what has been lacking all too often. I did not think we were too bad in second half - it was just that Dundee wanted it more than us. If we can just up our game now and play like that for rest of the season I am more hopeful of promotion than I was walking out of Victoria Park a couple of weeks ago.

[alimci]

I never leave a game early myself

I won't keep up the interrogation then! :huh:

[caleytillidie]

Same old same old. Another poor performance and most of yous blame butcher. When are you going to start questioning the players for these displays. I dont think it had anything to do with tactics yesterday. It was down to a severe lack of fight.

The players were awesome in the first half and obviously had a game plan set out and stuck to it. However at half time Butcher should of known what to expect from Scumdee, especially when 2,500 ICT fans knew what was coming, and should have lined the team up to deal with this. Did he do that? No. Instead Sanchez is taking off even though he was arguably the best player on the park, and we sit back and allow them to keep coming at us, inevitably conceding 3 goals. Then Imrie and Odhiambo are left on the bench far too long for them to have any impact on the game, and the cup which was ours for the taking is snatched from our grasp.

Okay it's harsh just to blame Butcher, as the players needed to get the finger out after the interval, and if not then, then definitely after the equaliser, and they never did. But some of the reasoning as to why we lost from such a strong position has to be ointed at his tactics from 45 minutes onwards.

What else could he have done? How should he have lined the team up then?

[absent friend]

My prediction was for a 4-1 win to us and nobody at half time, by the comments being made, would have argued with that.

I have never heard more positive comments at a halftime, all smilee faces, craic great. 2nd half they upped their game - we did not - end of!!

For me it was evident that they had nullified our main weapon so Hayes should have been off early in the second half. They also put Griffiths, with his pace down the left wing against Rossco. Wee player, very fast, heavier ground due to rain, no contest - Procter should have been put back there and Rossco moved forward. For the record the big left winger had little chance against Rosco in the first half, Rossco refused to tackle staying on his feet and kept the winger from coming inside. This allowed a defender to back up on the left and time for the defensive to regroup at the back, against Griffiths this was not the case and it is full marks to the wee guy and his manager!

I can understand the late subs because extra time was a big possibility and they could have been needed.

Imrie was at fault for the tackle, but looking at the game on TV when I got home, there was no backchat and indeed he moved away from the scene and had to be called over by the ref, so in my estimation, a yellow but he is still a turd.

Anyway wonderful game, great support, maybe not as big as Dundee's but more class - super day out all together!

[CaleyD]

It's been a long time since I felt as angry with the team as I did at full-time yesterday. Butcher has mentioned a couple of times in interviews this season about how they have let the fans down etc and I've thought he was being a bit OTT, but not yesterday....in fact, it wasn't the fact that I felt let down yesterday that annoyed me the most, it was the lads letting themselves down. So I was one of the ones who didn't stay to see them getting their meddles and I thought they had a bit of a brass neck to be coming over seeking some kind of gratitude from the fans. I was thinking about all the people that I'd been speaking to in the run up to the game and some of the stories about the effort and lengths fans were going to so they could come to the game, the distances travelled, the cost etc....all the things that fans do without a second thought....and they were, in my mind, at that time, being short changed.

Whether I was right or wrong to be feeling like isn't the point, that's how I was feeling at that time and as a result of that game.

You then get out of the stadium, you chat to a few people, you share a few views and you get it out of your system. The anger is short lived and you start to put things back into perspective...you find a few things to laugh about and although still upset you console yourself with the fact it's just a diddy cup anyway :huh:

You then get home and decide to torture yourself some more by watching the game on TV again, rewinding every contentious issue and analysing individual performances and moments in the game...looking for somewhere to pin the blame.

That's what I did anyway, and I don't imagine I'm alone in that. I'll still go back, and I'll find myself going through it all again....that's football. The players will be hurting every bit as much, if not more, than us this morning. These guys don't go out there with the intention of doing these things and whilst you can point to this thing and that as the reason for the defeat, I don't think there's any glaringly obvious "big" problems with us at the moment.

There's nothing like a game of this nature to identify the strengths and weaknesses in a team, and I just hope that we learn from them and make the adjustments necessary for improving things for us in the league.

Onwards and, with a bit of luck, Upwards.

P.S. Not forgotten the bet Heilandee, I shall ensure everyone here upholds their end on that front. Would have cost us more in cleaning if we'd won the cup so your welcome to it

[Heilandee]

Cheers CaleyD ya can have a word wi Lady Fraser as well, her langauge when she saw me in the pub in Pitlochry should merit a few quid in the fund,such langauge fae a lady :huh:

[Joe DiMaggio]

I beleve IHE was just on the TV putting up the flag... I'd go with the team hes put out, 4-3-2-1 ATTACK!! the fans are in good voice it sounds like its jumping

Oi!! Seen that me and Stirling Observer were on tv putting up our flag. How can you mistake me for IHE, he must have at least 30 years on me :P

Wonder if Butcher likes the Diego's flag, dont think Maradona is on his christmas card list!

[BA]

Talk about a game of two halves!! It still hurts me this morning. First 45 was the best I have seen as play in at least the last 18 months, we were first to every ball and Sanchez and Hayes tore the Scumdee defence apart.

Don't know what was said at half time by Butcher but it certainly didn't work, we should have sat bak and absorbed any pressure for the first ten minutes and then tried to come out and play again. Dundee clearly seen our weakness which was between Rossco and Bully as they constantly hit the ball down that channel for Griffiths to run onto.

As for Dougie Imrie, the less said the better, absolutely no need for what he done and was a deserved red card, judging by the reaction from Foran towards him he felt it was the correct decision as well. If this idiot cares more about himself than he does for his team mates and the club then hopefully Hamilton come in for him in January.

Top marks to our support yesterday, I thought we were superb and up until Dundee equalised we were the more vocal support. Even at two each the support continued to get behind the team so hopefully we can does this at the next home game. It was just a shame that Tayside police yet again trying to break up any sort of atmosphere, in particular one ******** who was trying to act the big man, and chucking people out for standing up when both ends behind the goals had Scumdee supporters on their feet.

[davie]

C'mon guys, that wasnae a capitulation in the 2nd half. Dundee were always going to have a spell in the game where the would pressure and they capitalised. Sanchez was immense in the first half, but was knackered and liable to be less & less effective as that pitch got wetter. Putting Cox in there to stiffen resistance wasn't a bad idea. What was a bit upsetting was to watch Roscoe & Golly being targetted and embarrassed by their lack of pace, but what options were there? You couldnae shift Proctor, he was doing a great job. My take on Imrie was that he took one for the jerseys. He tracked yon fella for a fair bit before he halfed him, I think to see if anyone else was getting close. If not, he would have been through and 4-2 would have been a travesty. So, a fringe player sacrificing himself might no be such a loss.

[caleykid1994]

C'mon guys, that wasnae a capitulation in the 2nd half. Dundee were always going to have a spell in the game where the would pressure and they capitalised. Sanchez was immense in the first half, but was knackered and liable to be less & less effective as that pitch got wetter. Putting Cox in there to stiffen resistance wasn't a bad idea. What was a bit upsetting was to watch Roscoe & Golly being targetted and embarrassed by their lack of pace, but what options were there? You couldnae shift Proctor, he was doing a great job. My take on Imrie was that he took one for the jerseys. He tracked yon fella for a fair bit before he halfed him, I think to see if anyone else was getting close. If not, he would have been through and 4-2 would have been a travesty. So, a fringe player sacrificing himself might no be such a loss.

But all we had to do in the 2nd half was frustrate them for 10 maybe 15 minutes before they would make the simple mistakes and surely our critical 3rd goal would have come.

[+Wanderer]

Actually I think that was a hard blow for the players to take and I worry now how they can rise to it on Boxing Day. They gave everything they had today and most of our 'fans' couldn't even stay to see them get their medals.

Can't agree with that my insectoid chum. Giving the players or the management team any hint that I was satisfied with that capitulation would have been hypocritical.

2000 of us knew what was coming before a single kick of the second half...but our management team hadn't bothered to prepare the players for it. An 89th minute double substitution demonstrated a complete lack of strategy or awareness of how to change things as the players tired. There was ample opportunity at 2-2 to make changes...45 minutes of excellence means nothing today.

[Harry Chibber]

C'mon guys, that wasnae a capitulation in the 2nd half. Dundee were always going to have a spell in the game where the would pressure and they capitalised. Sanchez was immense in the first half, but was knackered and liable to be less & less effective as that pitch got wetter. Putting Cox in there to stiffen resistance wasn't a bad idea. What was a bit upsetting was to watch Roscoe & Golly being targetted and embarrassed by their lack of pace, but what options were there? You couldnae shift Proctor, he was doing a great job. My take on Imrie was that he took one for the jerseys. He tracked yon fella for a fair bit before he halfed him, I think to see if anyone else was getting close. If not, he would have been through and 4-2 would have been a travesty. So, a fringe player sacrificing himself might no be such a loss.

A professional foul is only ever punished with a yellow, which makes me think this must have been an extremely bad challenge to see a straight red. Not seen the replay yet but from the stand it didn't look that bad????

Any one else have a better view?

[ICTFCkev]

Missed the Imrie tackle as was having a nice wee chat with Tayside's Finest outside the ground, so will be interesting to see the replays. From what I heard it was just a daft, needless lunge though.

[Glebeict]

I don't know , but the defence that I thought was going to be the strong part of the team this season ,has really gone south

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Just got back home, disappointed, but nevertheless moderately encouraged. I haven't got time to read 10 pages of this thread, so forgive me if my comments are repeating what others have said.

Absoluely great first half - should have been 4 or 5 up. Hayes magnificent. Douglas made a couple of outstanding saves.

Gave it away in 2nd half. Didn't initially spot that their first goal was og from Bulvitis!. All three of their goals came from attacks down Golly's side. I think that says it all. If Lionel had been at left back he would have been held solely responsible, but I'd venture that there has been little criticism aimed at Golly.

Imrie foolish, but I don't think it was worth a straight red. Other than that the ref had a good game.

Good to see a few faces I recognised in the Tulloch, plus met one or two I hadn't known before.

[darkblue1893]

While obviously being happy that my team won yesterday i honestly thought we should have been dead and buried as on chances created. We were either that bad or made to look that bad if it was boxing ref would have stopped it. You boys should have been at least four up at the break. Better pleased with our second half. Can't believe your winger that absolutely roasted our left back ( malone) was switched wings at half time as paton coped a lot better with him.

[DornochCaley]

I thought we should have kept Sanchez on. He created so much in the first half.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

My prediction was for a 4-1 win to us and nobody at half time, by the comments being made, would have argued with that.

I have never heard more positive comments at a halftime, all smilee faces, craic great. 2nd half they upped their game - we did not - end of!!

For me it was evident that they had nullified our main weapon so Hayes should have been off early in the second half. They also put Griffiths, with his pace down the left wing against Rossco. Wee player, very fast, heavier ground due to rain, no contest - Procter should have been put back there and Rossco moved forward. For the record the big left winger had little chance against Rosco in the first half, Rossco refused to tackle staying on his feet and kept the winger from coming inside. This allowed a defender to back up on the left and time for the defensive to regroup at the back, against Griffiths this was not the case and it is full marks to the wee guy and his manager!

I can understand the late subs because extra time was a big possibility and they could have been needed.

Imrie was at fault for the tackle, but looking at the game on TV when I got home, there was no backchat and indeed he moved away from the scene and had to be called over by the ref, so in my estimation, a yellow but he is still a turd.

Anyway wonderful game, great support, maybe not as big as Dundee's but more class - super day out all together!

I have to almost totally agree with that :P I would have said that Proctor should have been deeper, almost doubling up fer Rosscoe - IMHO we were the older team - Rosscoe, Golly and Duncan ALL toiled in that conditions. I would have hooked Rosscoe and Duncan with the game at 2-2 and - lets face it - the double substitution should have been 15-20 minutes earlier - there is no real argument about that.

Feckin great day out apart from that 45 minutes - and the polis and the stewards did approach me on a few occasions but it was pure banter and craic - and Joe Di Maggio had better sort out his highlights

But lets face it - Dundee deserved it in the end - if it was a fight it would have been a split decision - but yon first half display must make most ICT fans see what we can be capable of - and talking to some neutrals they thought that it was as good a game of fooyball as they had seen in years.

But mention must go to my brother in law and his son who followed Wigan to White Hart Lane and the stewards wouldnt allow them to leave until 15 minutes after the final whistle.

[cal234ey]

Best 45 mins I think I have ever seen from us. I thought we should have had more than 2 at half time maybe 4 or more but we really need some pace at the back and that I feel was the main undoing of our team. I thought Cox was being brought on to shore up our midfield but he was pushed further up and he really disappointed me.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I thought we should have kept Sanchez on. He created so much in the first half.

At the time I thought that he must have picked up a knock - shurely that is true - becos if it was tactical it was avery negative move - although I would have hooked Sanchez fer Cox in 60-70 minutes.

[absent friend]

Cant argue with that one - according the Scottish Sun Butcher states that his half time talk was all about being solid and aware that Dundee would be going hell fer leather from the off. IMHO Jocky Scott got it rite and started playing it wide - especially to Griffiths who had poor Rosscoe on toast and he really got their midfield harrassing which they were not doing in the first half.

We are realyy going to sleep defensively and it is costing us - as Glebeict remarked that surpises me - we really need a solid, pacy central defender in the New Year.

I see a lack of consistency in the above.

We agree that JS got the tactics right in the second half putting Griffiths on the wing when the park turned into a ploughed field and heavyweights were at a disadvantage HOWEVER the goals came from their right side and I do not see Golly being held to blame at all - only Rossco is mentioned and he was against the star player on the park.

If Lionel was left back this whole forum would be exploding with anti-Lionel comments.

Golly must be well related!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Cant argue with that one - according the Scottish Sun Butcher states that his half time talk was all about being solid and aware that Dundee would be going hell fer leather from the off. IMHO Jocky Scott got it rite and started playing it wide - especially to Griffiths who had poor Rosscoe on toast and he really got their midfield harrassing which they were not doing in the first half.

We are realyy going to sleep defensively and it is costing us - as Glebeict remarked that surpises me - we really need a solid, pacy central defender in the New Year.

I see a lack of consistency in the above.

We agree that JS got the tactics right in the second half putting Griffiths on the wing when the park turned into a ploughed field and heavyweights were at a disadvantage HOWEVER the goals came from their right side and I do not see Golly being held to blame at all - only Rossco is mentioned and he was against the star player on the park.

If Lionel was left back this whole forum would be exploding with anti-Lionel comments.

Golly must be well related!!

I would agree that Golly also had a poor game - I have said elsewhere that Golly, Rosscoe and Russell all toiled in the conditions. I have also already said that I felt that Jimmy Zadi could do a job in the SFL and the return of Golly really surprised me. Still the muppets love the old school dont they - what we shuld be donig is pitching in some of the yoof and looking to the future - but the muppets have to save face this season dont they ?

[davieB]

I said on the match thread that Dundee obviously decided to target Golly and Tokely in the second half. And it worked a treat for them. Golabek was woeful, and Tokely wasn't much better. Yet a lot of folk are happy to blame it all on Bully!!

I felt we lost any creativity we had once Sanchez was replaced, and just reverted to long ball *****. I can see why Cox was brought on, but I'd have taken Foran off. He wasn't having his best game at all.

[Caley Stan]

He hooked Sanchez for Cox after 57 minutes. The midfield weren't getting on the ball at all at the time and a change needed to be made. It was a really tough decision because all of the attacking players had played so well in the first half. As it turned out, Cox didn't really make us much more solid. The problem was the poor distribution from the back and the lack of pace of the full-backs.

I think Butcher's biggest mistake yesterday was not bringing on Imrie or Odhiambo earlier as Hayes faded badly after a great first half and Foran wasn't as effective either.

I hope we also remember just how good we were in the first half. Surely Butcher deserves some credit for getting us playing like that.