Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[CaleyD]

The only person chasing any debt was the taxman (?350k) and the ?200k from Melville plus money that had been pledged by local businesses would have more than likely seen them clear. Dundee have gone into voluntary administration, i.e. the decision was their own. This means that instead of having to pay the taxman the full sum, they will will only have to pay him Xp in the pound....all other creditors will be dealt with in the same fashion, from those with "soft" loans outstanding to your small businesses who are more reliant on the income and will be effected most.

The took a massive gamble last season and it never paid off, they now need a way to clear the decks, get rid of the debt, get rid of the overpaid players and reduce spending. This move by Dundee is nothing more than them playing the system to their advantage....some may refer to it as cheating. Overpaid players (and other staff) will be forced out the door without any recourse for compensation, creditors will get next to nothing on what they are owed etc. All of this while the club go pleading with fans to "support the club through this terrible time" and have them throwing (more) money into clearing up the mess the Board have created.

I know I'm at risk of sounding like a broken record, but unless rules/regulations are brought in to hold the decision makers who create these problems directly responsible then it will continue to happen and the fans will be the ones who continue to pay for it.

I have, in the past, stuck my hand in my pocket to put cash into the "Save the *Insert Club Here*" buckets, but not these days. I wouldn't knowingly buy an alcoholic a pint and I have come to realise over the years that throwing good money after bad in football is not the solution.

I have no specific dislike for Dundee, probably lean more in the opposite direction, but if it takes a couple of (what should be) decent clubs disappearing into oblivion in order for people to wake up and smell the coffee and do something for the greater good of the game, then so be it.

And before someone asks...yes, I would take the same mindset if it were ICT in this position. I would fight tooth and nail to save the club, but not if it meant putting it right back into a position where the same thing could happen again.

[Council Juice]

I have the utmost sympathy for the staff and players who will be left high and dry by these events. And Also the fans who have once again been duped by lies and false promises.

Unfortunately Dundee have brought this on themselves and when they did get a benefactor did they not pause for a second to think "Ok we've went up the creek before" You'd think they would be much more content to build slowly, as while overspending can bring short term success, it has been continously proven unsustainable at both Dundee and other clubs much bigger than themselves (Leeds etc)

When Melville was brought in he said there would be no high spending and the club (going by archive bbc website articles) would be run within its means. He then went out and spent ?300k on 2 players and allowed a squad of 30+ players to be kept. It was marginally trimmed this season after releasing around 15 of them but they then went and brought in even more players. Some only 3 weeks ago! Surely they knew there was a potential predicament by then?

People draw comparisons with us however I believe we managed to have a senior squad of around 19-20 (any new boys being freebies, mainly kids looking for a club) supplemented by youngsters such as Ross, Shinnie and Gavin Morrison. For some to state that Dundee who had around 10 more senior players, a fair few on better wages I'd imagine, would have a similar wage outgoing is more than likely off the mark. Add to the release of some non footballing staff and it seems more like we really trimmed costs to be sustainable in the 1st Division for that 1st season, with scope to adapt for the outcome going into the next season.

I don't understand how the directors are claiming that Dundee are being treated differently by HMRC. Have they not read of all the winding up orders they have been attempting to impliment down South? Pompey for example? Why do some football directors feel it perfectly ok to not pay tax on time? The money should be set aside in some form and if there is no money coming in to cover bills then costs should be cut and financial models reviewed. Im no expert but it seems a fairly logical solution to me.

In my opinion Dundee shouldn't be relegated- At least not right away as I believe this would do more harm to the league. A 60 point penalty which would effectively see them relegated and give them ample time to get a squad sorted for the 2nd division and costs slashed. Perhaps others will see this as harsh but it is a 2nd time in less than 10 years. Lessons have not been learnt.

I hope all directors of other clubs take heed of ANOTHER stark warning of these events and make sure that it doesn't happen to them. It's a forlorn hope perhaps but hey there is always hope at least

[AJS]

I wonder if Butcher will try and bring back Brian Kerr. Not saying i want him. Im quite content with our current midfield but Tel has signed him a couple of times and may want to help him out again.

I'd be very surprised if Brian would even consider coming back. Contrary to what many would like to think Brian did not leave for money. He was released by ICT as part of the relegation changes.

Yeah i guessed that. He has a family and stuff so the idea of a longer contract was probably more appealing. However the brief time he was here i thought he did ok.

[MissICT]

Read that poor Kerr had a baby just 5 weeks ago and now he has now job

I feel for him at this diffiult time and hope he gets a club asap!

I also read that the Sfl aren't gonna take any points from Dundee or gonna relagate them. I think that points should be taken from them as they have broken rules ans must be punished. Just look at Livi!!

[ictchris]

How not to run a football club

[ictchris]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse

[Sorted]

Shambolic way to run a tuck shop never mind a football club!

The guy who I feel most sorry for is poor Jocky Scott. Sacked when your team is top of the league, albeit on a very poor run, and replaced by the management duo of one of the clubs well below you. Now, thanks to a combination of factors all out of your control, you get not a penny settlement. Chisholm and Dodds didn't give two hoots for Jocky when they took the job. If I recall rightly their words were - "that's football." I struggle to find too much sympathy for them now as they chose to walk out on Palmerston and join the Dens Park Dream Team. The fact that they were incapable of doing their homework properly is their own responsibility.

For me, when they took the job they were certain they would get up. They failed. The consequences of failure were well known to anyone who has a clue about the Scottish game and for me, it's a bit rich for Chisholm and Dodds not to take some of the responsibility. Are we really to believe that me of such substance (as they are portrayed in the media by their pals) sat back and said nothing in public whilst all this went on? As long as the cash kept coming they sat tight.

Sad for fans of the club. But think that Melville, Brannan, the management team and many of the guys who signed up to big contracts that they knew weren't available elsewhere in Scotland took a calculated risk which failed. How many of them were offered lesser deals that were more secure but refused?

[CaleyD]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse

Ouch!!! With interest like that the Dundee fans will be on the blower to Massone to help save them.

[RiG]

Or Di Stefano....

[CaleyD]

Did you read the second article posted RiG?

[RiG]

Did you read the second article posted RiG?

No but I assume it was about Di Stefano as he declared his interest in buying Dundee a couple of weeks back. Unless Hicks and Gillet are looking for a new project...

[DJS]

If Dundee go the same way as their website, they're doomed.

Click Here for dundeefc.co.uk

[ilpadrino]

If Dundee go the same way as their website, they're doomed.

Click Here for dundeefc.co.uk

I spotted that while I was looking for updates last week, but it's running at http://www.thedees.co.uk/ - maybe they couldn't afford the renewal fee for the original domain.

[CaleyD]

Looks like the hosting company has gone south as their site is down also. If they had the site registered through the same company then they could be having some trouble retrieving it. Domain is registered until 2011

[MissICT]

Heard a good quotes on Lorriane this morning : if Wayne Rooney just dornated 2 weeks wages he would save Dundee, atleast he would be a hero somewhere.

[ictchris]

Oh dear

[Heilandee]

[Scotty]

If Dundee go the same way as their website, they're doomed.

Click Here for dundeefc.co.uk

I spotted that while I was looking for updates last week, but it's running at http://www.thedees.co.uk/ - maybe they couldn't afford the renewal fee for the original domain.

Looks like the hosting company has gone south as their site is down also. If they had the site registered through the same company then they could be having some trouble retrieving it. Domain is registered until 2011

back up and running now ....

[Caley Stan]

25 point deduction!!!

[cairngorm]

Dundee were deducted 25 points and cant sign any players OUCH

[CaleyD]

Should have been a harsher penalty, IMO. They should have been facing the same fate as Livingston, especially as this is a second offence.

[Scotty]

Seems to be little or no clarity here ......

The precedent has been set twice already and although I dont want Dundee to go out of business, I fail to see why they are any different to Livi or Gretna. In fact, as much as we can loathe both Livi and Gretna for the way in which they rose high and fast due to money poured into them then dropped like a stone when the money dried up, each of them only went into administration once ... this is Dundee's second flirtation with disaster and yet they get a slap on the wrist (albeit a big one) while the others got a punishment that did put one of them out of business and almost put the other one out.

Dundee fined 25pts after Administration.

Livingston relegated from D1 to D3 after Administration then Liquidation proceedings commenced. Liquidation never happened as that was the straw that broke Massone's back and he sold his shares the next day. Reason for relegation was "A breach of rules".

Gretna relegated from SPL to D3 after Administration. Subsequently went out of business. Reason for relegation was "due to their inability to guarantee fulfilment of their forthcoming fixtures".

[Scotty]

Press Statement

(apologies for the all caps - thats how the SFL displayed it on their site and I cant be bothered retyping it all)

http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news/article/press-statement-2010-11-01/

PRESS STATEMENT

Monday 1st November 2010

DUNDEE FOOTBALL CLUB

THE SCOTTISH FOOTBALL LEAGUE REGRETS THE CURRENT SITUATION THAT DUNDEE F.C. FINDS ITSELF IN FOR THE SECOND TIME IN SEVEN YEARS. WE ARE FULLY AWARE OF THE IMPACT THIS SITUATION HAS HAD ON ALL CONCERNED, ESPECIALLY PLAYERS, STAFF AND FANS OF THE CLUB.

THE SFL HAS A DUTY TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY AND ON-GOING SMOOTH-RUNNING OF THE LEAGUE. OUR MEMBERS AND STAKEHOLDERS EXPECT NOTHING LESS.

FOLLOWING A THOROUGH PROCESS, AS ENDORSED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR, THE BOARD HAS DECIDED THAT DUNDEE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED IS GUILTY OF CONDUCT CONTRARY TO LEAGUE RULES, THE INTERESTS OF THE LEAGUE AND ITS MEMBER CLUBS, AND THE FOLLOWING SANCTIONS WILL BE IMPOSED:

1.THAT DUNDEE F.C. BE DEDUCTED 25 LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

2.THAT, WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT, A PLAYER REGISTRATION EMBARGO BE IMPOSED UNTIL THE CLUB COMES OUT OF ADMINISTRATION.

3.THAT IF THE CLUB IS STILL IN ADMINISTRATION BY 31ST MARCH, 2011, THE BOARD WILL RECONSIDER THE MATTER AND WILL DEAL WITH THE CLUB AS IT SEES FIT.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT DUNDEE F.C. HAS A RIGHT OF APPEAL AGAINST THESE SANCTIONS

WE ARE OF THE OPINION THAT LESSONS ARE NOT BEING LEARNED. FOR EXAMPLE, CLUBS HAVE TO REALISE THAT, GOING FORWARD, THEY CANNOT TREAT THEIR HMRC OBLIGATIONS AS SOMETHING AKIN TO A CREDIT CARD.

FOLLOWING A RECENT MANDATE FROM OUR CLUBS, THE SFL WILL NOW PREPARE THE INTRODUCTION OF AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM, DESIGNED TO ALLOW US TO INTERVENE AT ANY STAGE, IF ADVISED BY HMRC THAT CLUBS ARE DEFAULTING ON THEIR OBLIGATIONS. WE ALSO WISH TO REITERATE THAT DUTIES OF CARE AND FINANCIAL DILIGENCE ARE OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR ANY DIRECTOR OR OFFICIAL OF ANY CLUB.

IN THE FACE OF CURRENT CHALLENGES, OUR ULTIMATE AIM IS TO ENSURE THAT CLUBS SURVIVE WITH INTEGRITY. PROFESSIONAL AND ROBUST FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES ARE KEY TO THE FUTURE SECURITY OF ALL CLUBS.

[starchief]

Neither Livi nor Gretna could fulfill their fixtures, so I don't agree their punishment should match Dundee. That said, I'm still not sure Dee can survive this.

[KingBeastie]

Bugger - looks c*unty will be safe now!