Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[Theweescot]

Hell yeah PMF! I would have ventted that at the Dundee forum but realised it wouldn't make any sence to any of them! Their arrogance and stupidity gets in the way! Thanks KingBeastie.

[PullMyFinger]

It's good to have a wee rant now and again.

[Heilandee]

it wouldn't make any sence to any of them!

excuse my ignorance but can you enlighten me as to what OCSR are/is as well please?

[PullMyFinger]

link

They regulate charities which includes football supporters trusts. Dee4life have some questions to answer unless they were kept in the dark by their board representative in which case he should be brought to task in court.

[Theweescot]

Office of the Scottish charity regulator. The people DFCSS and D4L should be registared with. They should both be constitutied as well.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Theweescot

[Heilandee]

I 'm open to correction if anyone can show me otherwise, but as I understand it football supporters trusts do not qaulify for charitable status and the DFCSS is a limited company.

[Theweescot]

D4L shouldn't be handeling money or raiseing funds then if their not registard and if they don't have a governing doc!

[Heilandee]

D4L shouldn't be handeling money or raiseing funds then if their not registard and if they don't have a governing doc!

Limited companies require to be registered with a charity regulator?

[Theweescot]

D4L shouldn't be handeling money or raiseing funds then if their not registard and if they don't have a governing doc!

Limited companies require to be registered with a charity regulator?

They're not registared with companies house or OSCR under D4 Life or any variation of so there's going to be BIG trouble!

If they're busted for not being registared they'll be dragged through court by their ears and forced to pay back every single penny they've been given and forced to wind up the "group" makeing the liquidation of dundee fc certain.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Theweescot

[CaleyD]

Supporters Trusts are actually Industrial and Provident Societies (Cooperatives) and are registered/regulated by the Financial Services Authority.

Dee4Life is the "trading name" of Dundee FC Supporters Society Ltd and are registered with companies house under the number SP2639RS.

[Heilandee]

I knew you'd be along in the fullness of time to clear up the status D, but didn't want to burst weescot's euphoria and desire to see us bust after his efforts and obvious interest in our club affairs

for weescots records..........

© 2004-2010 Dundee FC Supporters' Society Limited. Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts 1965-78. Registered No.2639RS

Contact address: DFCSS Ltd, PO Box 10162, Dundee, DD5 3RY

Registered office: DFCSS Ltd, 14 City Quay, Dundee DD1 3JA

[CaleyD]

No worries. There's a lot of misinformation gets passed around regarding Supporters Trusts, their intentions and how they should, IMO, fit in to the overall structure of the game.

Part of that is of their own making, insofar as not enough is done to educated people on the Supporters Trust Movement (although getting people to listen can also be difficult) and part of it is down to the fact that people view them as some kind of 4th emergency service who should have all the answers and be providing all the solutions when things go wrong at their clubs....something that is very difficult for them to do when fans don't get involved during the "good times" to allow them to prepare for and/or prevent the "bad times".

It's easy for fans, and even easier for clubs, to be critical of Supporters Trusts and what they do or don't do. They rant on about accountability within clubs, making the decision makers responsible, wanting to be more "in the loop" about what's going on with the boardrooms etc. Supporters Trusts are the only organisations which currently exist which are geared up to try and provide that, yet the majority of ranters wouldn't be able to tell you the first thing about Supporters Trusts.

Unfortunately we live in a world which is developing in to one where people prefer to point the finger and where it's always someone elses place to do the work they demand be done. If fans would put even a fraction of the energy spent mouthing off into actually doing something constructive to bring about the changes they want, then we'd all be in a far better place.

[Heilandee]

Unfortunately we live in a world which is developing in to one where people prefer to point the finger and where it's always someone elses place to do the work they demand be done. If fans would put even a fraction of the energy spent mouthing off into actually doing something constructive to bring about the changes they want, then we'd all be in a far better place.

how true

[Theweescot]

I knew you'd be along in the fullness of time to clear up the status D, but didn't want to burst weescot's euphoria and desire to see us bust after his efforts and obvious interest in our club affairs

for weescots records..........

? 2004-2010 Dundee FC Supporters' Society Limited. Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts 1965-78. Registered No.2639RS

Contact address: DFCSS Ltd, PO Box 10162, Dundee, DD5 3RY

Registered office: DFCSS Ltd, 14 City Quay, Dundee DD1 3JA

Lol thanks for that info, at least someone at the club has some sort of idea what the crack is!

[+DoofersDad]

League tables I have seen are not showing Dundee's 25 point deduction yet. Does anybody know when this will be applied or, if it is waiting on an appeal, when that will be heard? The reason I ask is that the 25 point deduction could make for a very interesting end of season. If teams get the same number of points a game for the rest of the season as they have to date, Stirling will be on 33 with Morton, County and Partick all on 36. Dundee will stretch to 60 points but a 25 point deduction would put them on 35. It could be very tight and clearly a 25 point deduction is certainly no guarantee of relegation.

Perhaps on appeal the SFL will double the penalty just to make certain the cheating b*****ds go down.

[Theweescot]

well said! I heard Tam Cowan and the rest of the off the ball/side team on sat morning basicly saying (and tam said it) liquidadate Dundee! To right Tam!

[PullMyFinger]

I concur with Doofers Dad. For anyone who thinks it a bit harsh, consider if Dundee had won the First division last year where we would be financially. We'd be stuck in the First for many years probably and possibly lower. Cheats they are and should be punished accordingly. It's no coincidence that their postcode starts with DD -Diddies the lot of them, has Boaby Brannan found his Tippex yet?

[CaleyD]

I wouldn't support an instant liquidation order, but I do think the regulations should stop CVA's which offer ridiculous levels of "compensation" to those due money. If a liquidation would generate more money than a CVA then that should be the route taken. If the clubs/fans/investors wish to prevent that then they should pay out what is due.

A system which allows clubs to continue trading without paying it's debts and risking the financial well being of other businesses is wrong. Whilst everyone rallies to help Dundee FC, who is rallying to help all the companies that have lost money due by the club to them?

I would support a system which offered a reduction in the penalty for paying debts in full and coming out of administration with a fixed timescale. What I don't currently support is a club/organisation/business which is allowed to continue trading and is being kept alive by fund-raising methods which bypass "the pot" and do nothing to improve the offer that can/will be made to those owed money.

The figure of ?500k additional income was been floated around as the amount that was needed to keep the club alive till xmas, so we already know that even under the administrator and taking into account all the cuts made it is not standing on it's own two feet and operating in a profitable manner....in other words, they continue a trading practice which is detrimental to the business and continue to benefit from spending more than they have!!!

[Heilandee]

WOW!! How rarefied is the air at that altitude on the moral high ground??

Whilst in no way condoning the events that have led us once again to the brink of extinction,it's pretty rich to pontificate your self righteous indignations without knowing the facts.

Club supporters took every step available to them in the firm belief this would prevent any repetition of the financial mismanagement of the previous regime,26% shareholding was the figure deemed necessary to prevent a single investor taking overall control and a rep on the board was (wrongly) assumed to give us eyes and ears and a degree of control. Brannan was seen as a legitimate and credible businessman and in the aftermath of administration the club appeared to be on a sound financial footing,with Melville announcing his intention to invest what could possibly go wrong?? hind sight is 20/20 eh?

Over the years, watching the evolution of ICT, i have often cast an envious glance at the financial management of the club in it's formative years and hope this prudence continues,do you all honestly believe last year was budgeted for without an element of risk? i think failure would have seen cut backs and first division football in Inverness for some time to come,but your boards gamble paid off,ours, more high profile and disastrous in its failure, did not.

CaleyD, i think your interpretation of CVA's is incorrect in that they are not in put place to give some "compensation" to creditors,rather to save a business which is seen as viable by the appointed administrators. I personally have suffered as a result of a company i did sub contract work going into administration through no fault of their own ,but due to a CVA being agreed by creditors ( i lost a substantial sum,) the company have managed to survive and continue trading and i continue to do work for them( albeit with tighter credit terms!) Their employees keep jobs, i continue to get work and the company keeps trading,liquidation would have seen all employees out of work and creditors receiving nothing!!!

Good luck with the rest if the season,hopefully no one on the board will think to gamble on the chance of gaining a euro spot eh?

[Theweescot]

CaleyD, well bl**dy said!

Heilanddee, what to say! well i think you're a dafty for continueing to do work for any company who have been in admin and esp daft for giveing them any credit!

On the subject of dundee, what went wrong if the fans "took every step avalible to them in the firm belief this would prevent any repition of the financial missmanagment of the previous regime?" "26% shareholding was the figure deemed nessasry to prevent a single investor takeing controll", clearly it wasn't!

Kepp the jokes coming Harry! My link

SFA's joke of the year award gose to.............! HA!

Edited November 17, 2010 by Theweescot

[CaleyD]

WOW!! How rarefied is the air at that altitude on the moral high ground??

Whilst in no way condoning the events that have led us once again to the brink of extinction,it's pretty rich to pontificate your self righteous indignations without knowing the facts.

You know me well enough to appreciate that my comments are certainly not born out of any "self righteous indignation" and that I would not put ICT forward as holding any moral high ground when it comes to financial matters.

Club supporters took every step available to them in the firm belief this would prevent any repetition of the financial mismanagement of the previous regime,26% shareholding was the figure deemed necessary to prevent a single investor taking overall control and a rep on the board was (wrongly) assumed to give us eyes and ears and a degree of control. Brannan was seen as a legitimate and credible businessman and in the aftermath of administration the club appeared to be on a sound financial footing,with Melville announcing his intention to invest what could possibly go wrong?? hind sight is 20/20 eh?

A little naive if they thought 26% would prevent/protect against a single investor taking overall control and whilst I haven't read the DFC Articles and Memorandums I would imagine the only thing it does give you is the power to block changes therein. As the club is effectively controlled by the Board, whoever controls them controls the club. At ICT we have/had* a situation whereby Tulloch Homes only required a 25% shareholding in order to appoint 75% of the Board and the Chairman....they have, in effect, become self selecting (the Board choose new Board Members) and it would take a 75% vote to change it. As Tulloch Homes own more than 25% then, effectively, someone could buy up all other shares and still not have control.

Like Dundee, we are exposed to the same dangers...as, I imagine, are the vast majority of clubs.

(*Changes to the number of Board Members permissible at last AGM will have an impact on this situation)

Over the years, watching the evolution of ICT, i have often cast an envious glance at the financial management of the club in it's formative years and hope this prudence continues,do you all honestly believe last year was budgeted for without an element of risk? i think failure would have seen cut backs and first division football in Inverness for some time to come,but your boards gamble paid off,ours, more high profile and disastrous in its failure, did not.

We've had cash in the bank for many years, and in that regard have been fortunate. However, it came at a cost as we don't own the stadium. You could argue that was a good thing as it has removed the temptation to borrow against the family silver and you could argue that it's a bad thing as it has left us heavily indebted to others..even if not in a financial manner.

We are all fully aware that last year was budgeted for with an element of risk and we were told so at the time, but the risk was one which would have done little more than empty the bank had it failed. What's more, we had already made many cuts immediately following relegation and that included a player wage structure that was heavily weighted towards performance related bonuses. In fact, the club ended up about £200k worse off than budgeted for over the season as a result of the good run we went on, so even our success had some negatives!!! What we wouldn't have been faced with is insurmountable debt and we would have been in a position to cut the cloth and bring spending within the means of the club.

Had Dundee cut costs at the start of this season I feel it would have done little more than delayed the inevitable as your problems, as it now transpires, go back even further. Even as we speak Dundee are not operating within their means as they are relying heavily on fundraising to get by...they may not be in receipt of that money, but the promises and signs that money is there is preventing the plug being pulled.

CaleyD, i think your interpretation of CVA's is incorrect in that they are not in put place to give some "compensation" to creditors,rather to save a business which is seen as viable by the appointed administrators. I personally have suffered as a result of a company i did sub contract work going into administration through no fault of their own ,but due to a CVA being agreed by creditors ( i lost a substantial sum,) the company have managed to survive and continue trading and i continue to do work for them( albeit with tighter credit terms!) Their employees keep jobs, i continue to get work and the company keeps trading,liquidation would have seen all employees out of work and creditors receiving nothing!!!

I fully understand what a CVA is and was making no interpretation, simply pointing out that I don't necessarily agree with the mechanism. Also, let's face it, if decision were made purely on "viability" then no administrator in his right mind would allow a football club to continue trading under current business models once it had gone into administration.

The point I'm making is that what right does Dundee FC (or any business) have to "be saved" if their mismanagement has sent others to the wall? What makes someones job there more important than a job which may be lost as a result of their only returning X pence in the pound to someone they owe money too?

Liquidation does not mean creditors get nothing, it means all assets are sold and the proceeds divided up among them. What I am saying is that if that process would give a larger return for creditors then it should be the one used unless investors (and or fans) are willing to provide sufficient funds to make the CVA the more attractive offer.

Good luck with the rest if the season,hopefully no one on the board will think to gamble on the chance of gaining a euro spot eh?

If it's affordable and not to the long term detriment of the club, then why not?

For the record, and I am sure I said it elsewhere, I have no desire to see Dundee go to the wall or disappear. However, I am getting fed up of the same thing happening time and again within football and nobody doing anything about it. Fans do little/nothing, clubs do little/nothing, our football associations do little/nothing and our government/courts do little/nothing. There's small glimpses of positive change coming from higher up at FIFA and UEFA, but they are a few years off and we could easily lose a half dozen clubs by the time they come in to effect.

Until we ALL start getting our head out of our butts and start facing up to the fact that nearly every one of our clubs is one bad decision being made by one small group of people away from extinction then nothing will change and we'll continue to lurch from one disaster to another.

The days of throwing money in buckets to help has passed, IMO. It is not curing the problem and lessons should have been learned long ago and continually throwing good money after bad is not the answer. The fact that fans are going around cap in hand to raise money to support a regime which shows no sign of changing for the better is, quite frankly, obscene and until that changes then we are every bit as culpable for the problems that exist in the way clubs are run as anyone else.

[Heilandee]

You know me well enough to appreciate that my comments are certainly not born out of any "self righteous indignation" and that I would not put ICT forward as holding any moral high ground when it comes to financial matters.

Aye,your correct D,and that part of my rant wasn't aimed at yourself,apologies if you thought it was,i understand you research your facts and i respect your honesty and forthrightness, some folk however, are quick to jump on the liquidate bandwagon after listening to a few calls on sportsound.

I agree major change has long been needed,and it will probably take casualties before the powers that be take steps to resolve some of the ills within the game and the running of clubs. Personally, i'd love to get back to football being about 3.00 pm on a Saturday and a few beers , instead of constantly striving to bale out further financial mismanagement and attempting to understand the politics involved.

For those directing their ire and indignation,be assured your anger doesn't come close to that felt by people who have invested massive energy and resources into doing what they believed to be for the best to save the club they have grown up with.

[PullMyFinger]

How is it self righteous to expect a team caught cheating the system to be punished? If the Dees gamble had paid off and you'd reached the SPL where would our club be now?

Indignant? Yes. Self righteous? No. Bloody angry? You bet I am. By waiting until the campaign had started DFC have made a complete mockery of Scottish Football. If I was a Dundee fan I'd want to start again in the Juniors and get a decent management structure into the club so we don't have to rely on maverick businessmen.

[Theweescot]

How is it self righteous to expect a team caught cheating the system to be punished? If the Dees gamble had paid off and you'd reached the SPL where would our club be now?

Indignant? Yes. Self righteous? No. Bloody angry? You bet I am. By waiting until the campaign had started DFC have made a complete mockery of Scottish Football. If I was a Dundee fan I'd want to start again in the Juniors and get a decent management structure into the club so we don't have to rely on maverick businessmen.

Well said PMF!

Heilandee - Haveing a dig at me are we?! At least be open and say it! I'd love to know the answer to this question if you will please, why oh why are you a dundee supporter on an Inverness fans forum? Are you mad!?

[KingBeastie]

TWS, Heilandee has been on here for many years and is a decent football supporter, like (most) others on here. There is no reason why he should not use these forums, he doesn't have a go at ICT or ICT fans so therefore is (IMO) welcome.

The only people I have any sympathy for is the whole dundee shambles are decent, genuine supporters like Heilandee (not the arrogant tw@ts we had to endure last season) and the normal (admin, seceterial, etc.) staff at the club who have/may lose their jobs. As for the rest, well, I think it's all been said before.