Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[CaleyD]

Not strictly true Starchief....neither could guarantee to fulfil fixtures, and as Dundee have already stated publicly, they can't guarantee the club survives beyond Christmas at this stage....so effectively there's no guarantee from them to fulfil fixtures either.

[RiG]

I notived that Dundee still had a player on loan from Hearts taking to the field this weekend past. Surely he should have been punted back to Edinburgh to save cash?

[Scotty]

Starchief - I dont agree .... Bottom line is that none of the three clubs could/can guarantee to fulfil fixtures. The administrator could pull the plug at any time ....

In the case of Gretna, the Mileson monies were the only thing keeping the club afloat. They had no debt per say - certainly not ?2m as is alleged to be the case for Dundee - just a sugar daddy keeping them solvent. Once his money was removed, they lost solvency quickly, accumulated debt, and we all know the result. Relegation to D1 might have actually kept the club alive. They had buyers waiting, and you would assume these buyers would try to cut the cloth to suit. They might have ended up back in D2 or D3 depending on how deep the cuts had to be but dropping them straight into D3 effectively killed the club as those buyers just pulled out.

In the case of Livi, their story is very much aligned with us ... we know they climbed the ranks with us and for a few years got to the next level ahead of us but again, the money side wasnt sustainable. Massone appears to have been the final nail in the coffin and it took a threat of liquidation to force him to turn over his shares to the administrator who in turn accepted the bid on the table. The buyers put a bond of nearly ?750,000 in place with the SFL to guarantee their participation in fixtures so to say they could not or would not participate is bogus and this is what made them appeal the decision and refuse to take part in their opening D3 fixtures.

[Scotty]

I notived that Dundee still had a player on loan from Hearts taking to the field this weekend past. Surely he should have been punted back to Edinburgh to save cash?

Hearts confirmed last week that he can stay and they are paying 100% of his wages.

[Alex MacLeod]

I notice it says the case will be reviewed if DFC dont come out of administration by the end of the season. I suppose relegation to third could still be on the cards. Did Livi and Gretna not both manage to hold of administration till the season had ended?

[RiG]

Cheers Scotty. I never knew that.

Alex - there was talk that if Dundee were still in administration by Christmas that was prtty much that for them. Not really been following this story recently so things might've changed.

[Scotty]

Re-reading the statement, I think I have worked out the rationale ..... point 3 is the main one

3.THAT IF THE CLUB IS STILL IN ADMINISTRATION BY 31ST MARCH, 2011, THE BOARD WILL RECONSIDER THE MATTER AND WILL DEAL WITH THE CLUB AS IT SEES FIT.

In the case of Liv and Gretna, most of the troubles came to a head in between seasons or towards the end of a season so promotion/relegation was less of an issue .... right now we are only a third of the way into the season so instant relegation is not an option as you would affect every single team in D1, D2 & D3 by rejigging and promoting other teams. the March deadline gives them a chance to apply the same punishment if it is not sorted out by then.

I still say it stinks, but I can see the rationale. They are going to have to have one hell of a season to escape relegation ... and if they do I can see even more controversy.

[CaleyD]

http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/news_detail_iframe.asp?h=25-POINTS-DEDUCTION&newsid=1284

We?re at Dens and speaking to Harry MacLean after the Scottish League deducted 25 points from Dundee ? He told us ?The decision is horrific, The SFL were aware of what that would mean for this club, they?ve not taken that into account at all"

"They?ve put this club at risk.?

We asked Harry if more people will lose their jobs "I wouldn't like to comment on that" he said "The administrator will take some time to step back and have a think about this - the immediate feeeling is one of shock, we will appeal this horrendous decision, but everyone here is a fighter and we expect the fans will fight to save their club too - we need as many people to come along here on Saturday as possible - I'm not talking about four or four and a half thousand people - I'm talking about getting the place full of Dundee supporters to protest this decision.

I know people at Dundee will be hurting, but this statement will do nothing to win support from others. I fail to see how it's the SFL who have put the club at risk, that is something that lies squarely at the feet of their own Board and the sooner they realise that the better.

[Alex MacLeod]

So, as of now Dundee are on -11 points. Thats 20 they would need to make up on Morton and 21 on RC to avoid playoffs and stay in the league. Thats a very big ask for a club who cant sign players. In effect they are already demoted to league 2

[Johnboy]

Neither Livi nor Gretna could fulfill their fixtures, so I don't agree their punishment should match Dundee. That said, I'm still not sure Dee can survive this.

It does seem extremely harsh.... The wrong people are being punished through no fault of their own.

This could very well be the end of the road for DFC.

[cairngorm]

Neither Livi nor Gretna could fulfill their fixtures, so I don't agree their punishment should match Dundee. That said, I'm still not sure Dee can survive this.

i AM LED TO BELIEVE THEY CANT , 15 POINTS YES MORE THAN THAT NO

[Scotty]

So, as of now Dundee are on -11 points. Thats 20 they would need to make up on Morton and 21 on RC to avoid playoffs and stay in the league. Thats a very big ask for a club who cant sign players. In effect they are already demoted to league 2

I think they could actually make that up !!! If they cant sign or get rid of players then they have the squad to do it ! Its a squad that was for the most part regarded as shoe-ins to win D1 last year.

I had a quick read of the DFC forums and saw the outrage, I also note the comments above from the club themselves but bottom line is that this punishment is more lenient than those handed out to either Livi or Gretna and does actually give them a chance.

I also agree that blame is being shifted here .... the ones at fault are the ones who did not pay the taxman, who allowed money to be spent like water (in more than one season) in an effort to reach the SPL, who allowed the club to accumulate an alleged ?2m in debt less than 7 years after going through the process once already .... these are the people who should be the targets of outrage, not The SFL who have - in my mind - had their hands tied a little by the timing and imposed the only penalty they really could have at this point in the season. I still think they went softer on Dundee than the others but as I read more, I think this is all about timing rather than favouritism.

to play Devil's advocate ..... IF ICT had not won the league last year would we have continued to spend on players in an effort to reach the SPL next year or the year after ? As much as we the fans might have demanded it, I think we would not. Our SPL push was a one season deal ... we do it at the first time of asking or we have to regroup, lose a lot of players and rebuild at a sustainable level. Luckily, all the pieces fell into place for us so we are not having that discussion, but this seems to have been the Dundee model over the last few years.

I also have to wonder about Club Licensing ??? As far as I can remember, UEFA club licensing covers finances and there are some pretty strong rules in there to try and guard against financial irregularities. I know the SPL take it all very seriously but do the SFL ? If not, why not ?

[CaleyD]

Neither Livi nor Gretna could fulfill their fixtures, so I don't agree their punishment should match Dundee. That said, I'm still not sure Dee can survive this.

It does seem extremely harsh.... The wrong people are being punished through no fault of their own.

This could very well be the end of the road for DFC.

So how do they punish the club without other suffering then?

I don't buy into the "innocent fans" theory either, certainly not in the grand scheme of things. They were happy enough to be out there supporting the team that was built on unsustainable financial models, lording it over others in the process. They're not the only fans to do it, but when it all goes tits up they have to accept they were/are part of it and any anger should be directed at those who caused it, not those faced with the task of imposing punishment.

Also, I see they are already trotting out the "nobody will buy us if we get demoted" line. If these potential buyers were so sincere then why didn't they step in to prevent administration in the first place? Could it be that they are only interested in getting control of the club if they can do it on the cheap whilst maintaining a league position that was obtained through cheating? Is that the kind of person they really want running their club?

Livingston had some semblance of a defence in that regard as Massone was refusing to part with his shares so it wasn't an option for any new/interested owner. Dundee shareholders had made it known they were happy to sell, but nobody came forward.

What's more, had this happened during the closed season then Dundee would almost certainly have faced relegation to Div 3. It would seem that, given when these debts were originally due, they have dragged it sufficiently into a new season so as to make such a fate almost impossible.....hence the 25 points deduction instead and the 31st March deadline to get out of admin, at which point I think they will face relegation to Div 3 if not rectified....and rightly so.

[Alex MacLeod]

DiStephano (think thats his name) was recently quoted as saying he'd take over and absorb the debt but only if others gave up they're interest in the club. By 'others' I'm assuming he means major shareholders like the Trust at Dundee. There are probably a few folk out there who'd take the club over but not so many who'd want to line the pockets of those who currently own the club in order to do so.

In light of previous examples I dont think the punishment is harsh. They are still in the league and could theoretically stay in it.

Does anyone know who the members of the board of the SFL are. Dee fans are blaming all the league clubs but its my understanding that the board, which consists of six members, took the decision. Isn't the RC chairman one of those with a seat at the moment?

[CaleyD]

It's a board of 8. Leishman was/is the only 1st Div Club represented on the board and he abstained in the vote on punishment.

[Yngwie]

I've got a Dundee supporting colleague who was complaining recently that they never get awarded penalties.

'Ave it!

[KingBeastie]

I've got a Dundee supporting colleague who was complaining recently that they never get awarded penalties.

They've now a 25 point penalty...

[RiG]

Does this now mean there has been another 25 point swing against Dundee?

[Kirishima]

No sympathy. Tax evasion, deliberately and purposely done to try and cheat ICT last year and now Raith, Dunfermline, etc to the SPL. It is simply wreckless egotistical criminal ownership and they have no one to point the finger at than themselves the day they decided to forego a tax bill and instead buy more players or steal a player from another team with money that was not theirs. It's fraud, and should be treated as so.

[MissICT]

Ah Dundee Fc!

Somehow I don't see them being able to play all their remaning fixtures!

[Charles Bannerman]

Neither Livi nor Gretna could fulfill their fixtures, so I don't agree their punishment should match Dundee. That said, I'm still not sure Dee can survive this.

It does seem extremely harsh....

Let me be Devil's Advocate here and ask why any company which, long term, fails to meet its liabilities should be allowed to continue trading at all?

It strikes me that a number of football clubs have got themselves into serious, long term financial problems and have gone into this state called "administration" which appears to allow them to tear up perfectly legal contracts with employees and show them the door. It is also not at all clear how much of the money some of them owe is actually paid back in this process.

Then, at some point in the future, the company miraculously "comes out of administration" and seems to be able to carry on trading as if nothing had happened.

One alternative might be for the law instead to require straight liquidation, with assets sold off to allow repayment as far as possible to creditors - with the sacked employees regarded as creditors and entitled to compensation along with the rest.

In Dundee's case (and this is the SECOND time they've been in administration) I'm not even clear what assets the company owns since I believe that they do not even own Dens Park and it appears to me that they are, rather like Dickens' Mr. Micawber, quite simply "waiting for something to turn up".

Maybe it's time that the football authorities addressed the fiscal lunacy which is rampant within the game by cracking down much harder than they do on clubs which cannot keep their house in order.

[CaleyD]

Or, as I have been harping on about elsewhere, put in place systems that reduce the likelihood of it happening in the first place.

One of the biggest problems is that the worst offenders in situations like this (the Board) are the ones who suffer least as they just up and out the door, leaving everyone else to clear up the mess. The only possible recourse would be for the shareholders to take action against them for negligence/corruption, but very difficult and expensive case to prove in court....especially as the companies Articles will be written to allow them (the Board) to do pretty much as they like, and unless you can prove personal gain on the part of a Director you're probably pissing in the wind.

Quite simply, the business models being used do not fit football. What's most unfortunate is the decision makers within the Associations who could force change are the clubs and you're not going to get the Turkey voting for Christmas (which is why I think the proposal for working with HMRC for early warnings is unlikely to happen).

SFA/SFL/SPL are suppose to be a regulatory body, but they have little/no powers to regulate how clubs operate beyond footballing matters. Until all the above changes then we'll continue to see clubs using Administration as a means for running up, then escaping from, huge debts.

[Scotty]

SFA/SFL/SPL are suppose to be a regulatory body, but they have little/no powers to regulate how clubs operate beyond footballing matters. Until all the above changes then we'll continue to see clubs using Administration as a means for running up, then escaping from, huge debts.

It should be quite straightforward really ..... The various Scottish football authorities are a 'member organisation' so they could make it a condition of membership that the clubs adhere to the UEFA club licensing documentation with regards to finances (and any other part).

UEFA are phasing their new 'break-even' ethos into the game and that basically says that by 2014 "Under the break-even requirement, clubs may not spend more than the income they generate.": http://www.uefa.com/uefa/footballfirst/protectingthegame/financialfairplay/news/newsid=1500331.html

Club Licensing document attached:

1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[PullMyFinger]

That'll be Hearts fecked then

[CaleyD]

As I said, Scotty....."Turkeys voting for Christmas" and "Until things change".

I'm familiar with the attached document and there's a load of other things out there at the moment which will force much needed change....but until then "we'll continue to see clubs using Administration as a means for running up, then escaping from, huge debts."