Humble Pie Version 2.0

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Good feckin points but:

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[clacher_holiday2]

point proven, sir

[Harry Chibber]

To be fair mate you were going on about managers playing at a high level.. anyway as it stands

Mourinho 41           

Benitez 45

Wenger 57

Fergie 65

Chirstie 40

So he has a few years on a couple of them anyway.  I never said Christie would be as good as any of these and was obviously using them as examples...

Is that the standard of manager you expected at ICT?? Is this why you are not giving him your full backing??

Another thing similar to Christie's appointment that is consistent with Wenger, Fergie etc. is that they were all doubted by their fans in their first season...

are you going to be one of those "fans"??

I have already had almost the exact same conversation with Midge, Sandy, Bonzo and tbh can't really be ersed going through it again... so you have your opinion and I have mine, let's leave it at that??

[clacher_holiday2]

ah go f##k yourself, i cant be having all this lets agree to disagree mince :001:

you were the one who mentioned those 4 managers first, then asked me why i didnt comment on them.  seen as you were using them as examples of players who never made the top but went on to do well, i just wanted to disprove any myths that they just 'come from nowhere' to get to where they are now.

this is too big a job for christies first as a manager, that was my point, which you actually agreed with yesterday!

[Harry Chibber]

ah go f##k yourself, i cant be having all this lets agree to disagree mince :001:

you were the one who mentioned those 4 managers first, then asked me why i didnt comment on them.  seen as you were using them as examples of players who never made the top but went on to do well, i just wanted to disprove any myths that they just 'come from nowhere' to get to where they are now.

this is too big a job for christies first as a manager, that was my point, which you actually agreed with yesterday!

now your changing my words, I said "Yes, the job might have come too early for him" there is a difference...

You said that Christie hadn't played football at a high enough level, thus why I used those managers as examples.  I didn't say they didn't have previous experience of management. 

My last post :003:

[CaleyD]

Robbo and Brewster were both quoted during their time here as having seen CC as an important part of the team, Brewster even went so far as to say that he often went to CC for advice with regards the team and players.

Take from that what you will, but to me it suggests he did far more than simply act as the "raffle manager"

[Scarlet Pimple]

Clacher

How dare you knock the Pimple off the "long-posts" perch and left him stumbling  in the dirt as an " also ran ". Quite cruel -I no longer admire you for your spirit fer that... but I do admire your perspicaciousness, grasp of facts and knowledge and research capability just to prove a minor point about which , in your opinion , you are right .

Very persistent laddie even if you miss the whole point that it doesn't matter a **** if CC has not had many past games etc in the top flight- the football is still the same shape for every game and so are the goal posts. What matters  is his intelligence quotient, his capability to instil discipline and respect in his players and his tactics .

But if I were CC I would be hindered and vexed and in despair if I was to look to you for succour and support. With a friend like you who needs enemies fer heavens sake? If he is so poor and ineffective in your eyes why don't you support him??

Brewster has had a long and successful playing caraeer and deservedly had an outstanding reputation as a player but as a Manager with D.U he was dismal.

Based on results his performance  was a complete failure and, although we don't know a great deal about his relations with the players,  subsequent events do tend to prove that he was unable to successfully motivate them in the way that Levein seems to have been  able to do.

Robbo did not fare so well at Hearts either did he since what happened there could easily be looked-upon as his inability to handle the challenge and adversity of Vlad the Lad? Yet he was a former hero at Tynecastle based on his playing career. So maybe he bit off more than he could chew,  but he still was unable to achieve the results ..

CC talks well in interviews and looks good on camera. He is different from John Hughes of Falkirk whose enthusiasm greatly overshadows his lack of education ("I  hink that Latapy played well the day and he played great balls  intae the box... etc; ) and is a good ambassador for the club in that regard. Maybe his "inexperience" and nervousness has led to a certain lack of decisiveness in dealing with some players who lack discipline - when Black threw his jersey into the dugout, and talked back in a disrespectful way to Charlie at the same time ,I think he should have been stamped upon and finally made an "example-of" .

But if you admire Ferguson's approach of aggressive ruthlessness over the presence of  CC I must remind you that you have said in your soliloquey that Ferguson had several contretemps with Management and failures before hitting the jackpot so who is to say that such an approach would have brought a greater number of wins to ICT?

That is...if you consider wins to be the only measure of success at the club ....?

Personally I think that ICT have done exceptionally well under CC , all things considered, and it can only get better.

C'mon , get with the programme.. :019:

[Alex MacLeod]

Clacher, you mention Robbo and Brew. Where's Livi in Div 1 table? 7th. Wheres Brewster? Aberdeen reserves as a player.

Every manager, be they experienced or not, needs to be a footballing tactician. They also need players who can fit into their plans. They all build teams that can provide what is required. Under our last two managers we had a reputation for being very defensive. Indeed we were usually parked in the opposition box. Defenders did not get forward. They lobbed the ball up the park in the hope someone would connect with it and get lucky. This tactic worked but was not entertaining. I believe CC is a more attack minded person and that he is doing his best to change our players and to develop their skills in an attacking fashion. Much like Pele tried to do. When we  get things right at the beginning of any game our players grow in confidence, they pass the ball and the attack all out. Defenders get up the park and some even score. When it doesn't go right in the first quarter hour, heads droop and the ball gets hoofed but I believe we are on the right tracks and that, with two or three players brought in, ones who were not part of any previous ICT setup, CC and DP will build an entertaining, successful attacking team.

I dont base my beliefs on any parochialism or idolisation of Charlie Christie. I base it all on what I see on the park and the tv screen. Charlie Christie may not have been a player at the top levels but he has a very sound knowledge of the game and a very positive idea of what he wants and how to achieve that.

Finally, I see CC and DP taking us to sixth place and a Scottish Cup final.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Finally, I see CC and DP taking us to sixth place and a Scottish Cup final.

So do I. Crack Cocaine and Dido Psilocybin.  :011:

[Alex MacLeod]

We'll see, we'll see o' wise one :016:

[clacher_holiday2]

Clacher

How dare you knock the Pimple off the "long-posts" perch and left him stumbling  in the dirt as an " also ran ". Quite cruel -I no longer admire you for your spirit fer that... but I do admire your perspicaciousness, grasp of facts and knowledge and research capability just to prove a minor point about which , in your opinion , you are right .

Very persistent laddie even if you miss the whole point that it doesn't matter a **** if CC has not had many past games etc in the top flight- the football is still the same shape for every game and so are the goal posts. What matters  is his intelligence quotient, his capability to instil discipline and respect in his players and his tactics .

But if I were CC I would be hindered and vexed and in despair if I was to look to you for succour and support. With a friend like you who needs enemies fer heavens sake? If he is so poor and ineffective in your eyes why don't you support him??

Brewster has had a long and successful playing caraeer and deservedly had an outstanding reputation as a player but as a Manager with D.U he was dismal.

Based on results his performance  was a complete failure and, although we don't know a great deal about his relations with the players,  subsequent events do tend to prove that he was unable to successfully motivate them in the way that Levein seems to have been  able to do.

Robbo did not fare so well at Hearts either did he since what happened there could easily be looked-upon as his inability to handle the challenge and adversity of Vlad the Lad? Yet he was a former hero at Tynecastle based on his playing career. So maybe he bit off more than he could chew,  but he still was unable to achieve the results ..

CC talks well in interviews and looks good on camera. He is different from John Hughes of Falkirk whose enthusiasm greatly overshadows his lack of education ("I  hink that Latapy played well the day and he played great balls  intae the box... etc; ) and is a good ambassador for the club in that regard. Maybe his "inexperience" and nervousness has led to a certain lack of decisiveness in dealing with some players who lack discipline - when Black threw his jersey into the dugout, and talked back in a disrespectful way to Charlie at the same time ,I think he should have been stamped upon and finally made an "example-of" .

But if you admire Ferguson's approach of aggressive ruthlessness over the presence of  CC I must remind you that you have said in your soliloquey that Ferguson had several contretemps with Management and failures before hitting the jackpot so who is to say that such an approach would have brought a greater number of wins to ICT?

That is...if you consider wins to be the only measure of success at the club ....?

Personally I think that ICT have done exceptionally well under CC , all things considered, and it can only get better.

C'mon , get with the programme.. :019:

back in the rivals.net days the long winded and delibratley poorly written messages were a trademark of mine, i used to wirte in a style that made it near impossible to read the chaff between what i was actually trying to say.  ive been hovering around on caleythistleonline.com for near 7 years now, if a perch exists for those who love the sound of their own fingers and being as anal as possible about vaguely related points in a topic, then scimple pimple, i built it!  i dont feel as if i have to overstate or repeat points to add page inchs anymore, i dont have to prove myself to anybody here!

anyway, with that matter settled without question forever, this topic is about charlie chalk and his ability to put a side onto the park thats going to entertain me but i think we're all long past caring about that.  the tit for tat stuff is great though so ill just carry on with that..

first of all im not an enemy of christie, certainly not a natural one at least, theres no reason why i shouldnt support him if i think he's doing a good job and taking us in the right direction.  im also not his boyfriend, ive been as objective as i possibly can when approaching how i see his original appointment and refuse to give him blind support until i see evidence on the park we arent going backwards.

the reason i am frustrated with him being in charge just now is that we are very close to losing half our squad and being relegated, if not this year then in the next couple.  if we do then we face the prospect of being in the first division for years, with that section being a **** of alot stronger than it was when we won it.  the difference between myself and the other cc sceptics compared to his supporters is that we can see we arent danny invincible there, nothing makes us anymore special than the other teams in the spl and theres no rule that states we've got years for charlie to work things out.  if we play poorly, without motivation and with little sign of improvement on the horizon then thats what will happen.

as for robbo and brew, i wasnt a fan of either of them to be honest and saw major tactical problems in both of their styles (also got very embarassed when brew constantly went on about the teams fitness levels).  both had excellent playing carears but both have ended up going backwards since leaving the ict dugout, so the easy point to take from that is experience with top players/managers is by no means a prerequisite of a good coaching carear..  its impossble to argue against, but the point i thinks most important about their failures is that neither of them started at the clubs they failed at, they started lower and with less pressure at ict.  i think christie shouldve done the same, used the wealth of sfl experience he gained from his playing days and the from working with seasoned spl pros in robertson and brewster, and applied it in a job elsewhere at a lower level.  if he can prove himself there then of course he becomes a credible candidate for the ict job.  brewster and robbo reached too far too soon and it all ended in sh1te, i fear the same could end up happening to cc and us. except here a poor season is relegation and not merely being in the lower parts of the league, even then there are other excuses that can be made for such a poor show (budget, location, stadium, support base etc the usual suspects).

im not n an admirer of fergusons appoach but you cant argue with his success (unless you can?!).  i cant see anywhere in his early carear that suggests he ever had a bad time as boss, when at east stirlingshire he didnt even have a keeper and got paid £40 a week.  if charlie christie decided he was so desperate to get into club management then id have a **** of alot more respect when talking about him if he went there and managed to improve the team aswell!

Anyway, harry chibber replied to me too so i cant be giving you all my attention and im getting bored xx

I said "Yes, the job might have come too early for him"

thatll do!  also I never pointed out to you because I thought it was too obvious when you listed the other managers names, I was talking about their EARLY carears, when they were cc’s age.

Every manager, be they experienced or not, needs to be a footballing tactician. They also need players who can fit into their plans. They all build teams that can provide what is required. Under our last two managers we had a reputation for being very defensive. Indeed we were usually parked in the opposition box. Defenders did not get forward. They lobbed the ball up the park in the hope someone would connect with it and get lucky. This tactic worked but was not entertaining. I believe CC is a more attack minded person and that he is doing his best to change our players and to develop their skills in an attacking fashion. Much like Pele tried to do. When we  get things right at the beginning of any game our players grow in confidence, they pass the ball and the attack all out. Defenders get up the park and some even score. When it doesn't go right in the first quarter hour, heads droop and the ball gets hoofed but I believe we are on the right tracks and that, with two or three players brought in, ones who were not part of any previous ICT setup, CC and DP will build an entertaining, successful attacking team.

I dont base my beliefs on any parochialism or idolisation of Charlie Christie. I base it all on what I see on the park and the tv screen. Charlie Christie may not have been a player at the top levels but he has a very sound knowledge of the game and a very positive idea of what he wants and how to achieve that.

Finally, I see CC and DP taking us to sixth place and a Scottish Cup final.

as much as i admire Christie for talking a good game in respects to what he wants from the team, he isn’t putting it into place on the park, so i refuse to praise him for wanting to play flowing attractive football yet and neither should you!

as i said before i was never a fan of the defensive style craig and john preferred but that was the only way they could see us of picking up points, we nearly finished in the top 6 twice under them and at this stage of the season were playing a lot better.  i was never as nervous watching us when we were stronger at the back as i am now, which i hate.  we don’t look as fit as we did back then which was the edge we had over other teams at the bottom for a long time.

if christie is capable of making us solid and safe while at the same time getting us to play some attractive football then ill back him forever, just because that’s what he wants to do it doesn’t mean we aren’t gash!  the next few games could really go either way for us, another poor run will make the season a match between us and whoevers bottom, a few more wins and we’ll be fine. christie can then start getting us playing some smart football, as he says we should!

[Scotty]

Scarlet - you cant argue with that post ... one of the longest thats ever been on any incarnation of this site, and unlike some of our mini-novels [:004:] its one that makes a lot of sense with some reasoned thinking from a fan calling as he sees it.

Clacher - I am still 100% behind Charlie, think he will overcome the recent slump and go on in the coming seasons to keep us in the SPL as proverbial mid-tablers with odd forays higher up the table (and lower down).

However I am also realistic enough (most of the time) to realise things can also go the other way. As someone who is also passionate about this club - even from this distance - I can appreciate the sentiments and legitimacy in every word you posted. I agree that he is a rookie with a lot to learn and unfortunately I simply cannot fault the (frightening) accuracy of your arguments and their consequences if we were to go in the other direction. I hope you are wrong, but your argument is indeed a reasoned and well thought out one.