Proposed new league structure

[Alex MacLeod]

What are those figures supposed to tell me......that football has become more popular in these countries now than it was back then?

[Alex MacLeod]

Am i right in saying the pyramid structure would allow one team to be promoted?  I heard they are maybe going to combine the East and South leagues with a couple teams added from the west to make an entire Southern League so the winner of that would then play the Highland league winner in a playoff to decide who wins promotion.  Now if this is the case and say the highland league team wins the promotion and a southern team is relegated from the 3rd division what happens then?  Does the Highland league play with one less team and the Southern League accommodates another space from say 10 to 11 or 20 to 21?

Move teams in closer proximity between leagues?

[cal234ey]

What are those figures supposed to tell me......that football has become more popular in these countries now than it was back then?

 

What they are intended to highlight is in Switzerland the average attendance rose after the 12-12/8-8-8 system was scrapped. As for Austria they were higher before the 12-12/8-8-8 system was implemented, then dropped while that system was in place before rising after it was scrapped. Shouldn't be that hard to interpret surely . . . 

[ICTPaisley]

This is how the league in Belguim is run. 

 

The Belgian Pro League is the top league competition for association football clubs in Belgium. Contested by 16 clubs, it operates on a system of promotion and relegation with the Belgian Second Division. Seasons run from late July to early May, with teams playing 30 matches each in the regular season, and then entering play-offs 1, play-offs 2 or the relegation play-off according to their position in the regular season. Play-offs 1 are contested by the top 6 clubs in the regular season, with each club playing each other twice. Play-offs 2 are contested by teams ranked 7 to 14 in the regular season, divided in two groups of 4 teams playing each other twice. The relegation play-off consists of 5 matches between the 15th and the 16th-placed team in the regular season. 

 

Now my opinion is that our idea of a setup is much better than this.  1 team promoted from a league of 16.  They play each other twice and then the two bottoms teams then play each other again FIVE times to decide who is relegated.

[ICTPaisley]

Am i right in saying the pyramid structure would allow one team to be promoted?  I heard they are maybe going to combine the East and South leagues with a couple teams added from the west to make an entire Southern League so the winner of that would then play the Highland league winner in a playoff to decide who wins promotion.  Now if this is the case and say the highland league team wins the promotion and a southern team is relegated from the 3rd division what happens then?  Does the Highland league play with one less team and the Southern League accommodates another space from say 10 to 11 or 20 to 21?

Move teams in closer proximity between leagues?

At that level though it's not fair to just move a side out of a league to fit another one in.  A fair bit of extra travelling would need to be done.  Moving a lower league side into the highland league or the other way around just wouldn't work.

 

The West and Ayrshire leagues are combined right down until the last two leagues which are regionalised for Glasgow and Ayrshire based teams.  The Central first division has 4 teams relegated every year from a league of 14.  Two teams from the Glasgow based league below (Central District) and two from the Ayrshire District leagues are promoted. Now if 4 teams from Ayr are relegated then they just accommodate them into the league by expanding it,  Where as glasgow would be a short two teams.  At the moment the Ayrshire league has 12 teams and the Glasgow district only has 11 due to this.  The odds and even numbers of these leagues change every year.  There has to be a better option than this though.

[+DoofersDad]

Am i right in saying the pyramid structure would allow one team to be promoted?  I heard they are maybe going to combine the East and South leagues with a couple teams added from the west to make an entire Southern League so the winner of that would then play the Highland league winner in a playoff to decide who wins promotion.  Now if this is the case and say the highland league team wins the promotion and a southern team is relegated from the 3rd division what happens then?  Does the Highland league play with one less team and the Southern League accommodates another space from say 10 to 11 or 20 to 21?

Move teams in closer proximity between leagues?

Yes.  They've been doing it for years in England at levels 2,3 and 4 of the pyramid system and without any particular problems.  And please don't use the argument that distances are not as great as they are in Scotland because for some they are greater and with poorer transport links.  Some teams in the English Midlands could find themselves in a league which takes them to East Anglia one year and Cornwall the next.  There can be considerable change in a regional division from one year to the next but it is accepted because of the overall advantages of the pyramid system.

[ICTPaisley]

 

Am i right in saying the pyramid structure would allow one team to be promoted?  I heard they are maybe going to combine the East and South leagues with a couple teams added from the west to make an entire Southern League so the winner of that would then play the Highland league winner in a playoff to decide who wins promotion.  Now if this is the case and say the highland league team wins the promotion and a southern team is relegated from the 3rd division what happens then?  Does the Highland league play with one less team and the Southern League accommodates another space from say 10 to 11 or 20 to 21?

Move teams in closer proximity between leagues?

Yes.  They've been doing it for years in England at levels 2,3 and 4 of the pyramid system and without any particular problems.  And please don't use the argument that distances are not as great as they are in Scotland because for some they are greater and with poorer transport links.  Some teams in the English Midlands could find themselves in a league which takes them to East Anglia one year and Cornwall the next.  There can be considerable change in a regional division from one year to the next but it is accepted because of the overall advantages of the pyramid system.

 

Would it not be the same team that is always flipping from one league to another though? 

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

Am i right in saying the pyramid structure would allow one team to be promoted?  I heard they are maybe going to combine the East and South leagues with a couple teams added from the west to make an entire Southern League so the winner of that would then play the Highland league winner in a playoff to decide who wins promotion.  Now if this is the case and say the highland league team wins the promotion and a southern team is relegated from the 3rd division what happens then?  Does the Highland league play with one less team and the Southern League accommodates another space from say 10 to 11 or 20 to 21?

Move teams in closer proximity between leagues?

Yes.  They've been doing it for years in England at levels 2,3 and 4 of the pyramid system and without any particular problems.  And please don't use the argument that distances are not as great as they are in Scotland because for some they are greater and with poorer transport links.  Some teams in the English Midlands could find themselves in a league which takes them to East Anglia one year and Cornwall the next.  There can be considerable change in a regional division from one year to the next but it is accepted because of the overall advantages of the pyramid system.

 

Would it not be the same team that is always flipping from one league to another though? 

Yes it is.  It is the teams roughly in the middle of whatever region the leage covers.  They may find they play teams predominantly to the north or east of them one year and then teams to the south and west next year.  Perhaps a bit unsettling but the positives are they and the fans get to go to different places and the overall travelling distances are far less than if the league was not split on a regional basis.  Folk seem happy enough with it.  It's more variety.

[bishbashbosh]

I'm not hearing anything peruasive to suggest this proposal is not worth exploring further.

 

 

Has this model been tried before?

The system was tried in Austria 20 years ago but lasted only eight seasons and was not considered to be a success.

Switzerland also adopted a similar model, running from 1988. Falling attendances and a drop-off in TV money and sponsorship led to it being abandoned in 2003.

 

 

[Rival]

I don't think starting next season is a good idea

[ICTPaisley]

Starting next season wouldn't be a problem.  The problem lies with the non league sides that need to restructure their leagues to suit the new set up.  Promotion and relegation from the 18 team league could commence the following season giving the lower sides another year to organise themselves properly.

[Gabby]

My opinion is that the plans offered for league construction are a contrived way to add comptitiveness and entertainment value to football.  It won't.  If the powes that be were really serious about making the leagues (particularly the top division) more competitive it could be done very easily.

 

Leave the actual league structure as it is except for adding a play off for relegation/promotion.

Take all the money generated by the SPL, subtract the amount for parachute payments, subtract a minimal amount for prize money according to your finishing place and then divide the remaining amount equally between the clubs in the SPL.

 

However Celtic (and Rangers if they are allowed to vote) won't vote for this because the receive the bulk of the cash.  I see theat Celtic have generously given up 300 000 pounds for the current plan.  It's a drop in the ocean.  In my opinion your reward for finishing first is a trophy and the financial rewards of European football.

 

It is impossible to have a competitive league when 10 of the 12 (actually 11 of the 12 these days) are not given the chance to compete. They are deliberatly finacially hobbled to prevent comptitiveness.

 

so instead of standing up for the little guys (the majority of their members) the SFA/SPL/SFL have decided to focus on the race for the bottom. 

[starchief]

It is all about spreading finances more equitably.  A division where Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee United all compete most years for the title, with the slightly smaller clubs, like us, Killie etc., being able to do something with a good manager would solve most problems.

As it is, Celtic can spend millions on a player and thousands on wages, whilst the rest cannot even keep their youth in nappies and rusks. Spread the cash, so they can compete with each other for Scotland's better players, not European class versus EFL2 standard.

[Gabby]

I rarley agree with Craig Burley but he has nailed this - 100% correct.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reconstruction-proposals-should-be-torn-up-1531712

[CaleyD]

Whether you agree with Burley or not doesn't matter as his idea would never see the light of day.  He's talking about a setup which involves kicking out 6 teams and there's no way any of the Div 3 clubs would vote to see that put through.

 

It's for the very same reasons that we won't see a 16/18/20 team top league (my preference).....because there's SPL teams who will not vote to get rid of (the chance of) that extra home fixture against Celtic

 

We can stamp our feet about not liking the current proposals all we like, but nobody has come up with an alternative which would be acceptable to the majority of clubs...or in the SPL's case 11 of the 12...and that is the sad reality of where Scottish Football finds itself at this moment in time.

 

The only way to break that deadlock is to implement what is being proposed because if it's rejected then Scottish Football is going nowhere other than into continued decline for the foreseeable future.

 

This is not only about getting a new league structure, it's about getting rid of the stranglehold the minority have on the way the game is run.  With these proposals come a whole new setup and levelling of the playing field on the voting/power front.  No longer will change/progress be totally stifled by the need for 11/1 majorities, so if the 12-12-18 isn't working then change can be agreed and implemented without all the political nonsense and BS we are witnessing at present.

 

Those who think Chuckles Green is in any way concerned about being in the third tier next season should it go through are being distracted by all his bluster and bravado...the reason Green does not like the proposals is because it removes the future power Rangers would yield if/when they return to the top tier, the power they lost when they were dumped down to where they are now.

 

The proposals might not be what we hoped for, but they are a step in the right direction for Scottish Football.  If not, immediately, on the playing/product front...them most certainly from the political setup and balance front.  Until that is changed then we have no chance, ever, of getting the game to where the majority of us want to see it.

[Rainbow]

A real pyramid structure has to go down to the very bottom of local football. If, for example, the HL champion gets promoted and no team is relegated into the HL, the place is filled from below, as the bottom team(s) are relegated to the local leagues and the winners of those get promoted to the HL, with play-offs of the second and third bottom HL sides and the runners-up of the local leagues for as many spaces as necessary.

BTW, that's the way the whole thing has been run in Germany and Austria since WW2. For example, German Bundesliga side Hoffenheim were in the second bottom local tier in the mid-80's, before they started their climb through the stages and ended up where they are now. Not through application and buying in, but by winning one league after the other and getting promoted to the next one. Sponsor Mr Hopp wasn't involved until around 2000...

[Laurence]

Maybe if they take the Union Flag down from Glasgow Town Hall , the Rangers fans may get distracted and forget about football

[Laurence]

A real pyramid structure has to go down to the very bottom of local football. If, for example, the HL champion gets promoted and no team is relegated into the HL, the place is filled from below, as the bottom team(s) are relegated to the local leagues and the winners of those get promoted to the HL, with play-offs of the second and third bottom HL sides and the runners-up of the local leagues for as many spaces as necessary.

BTW, that's the way the whole thing has been run in Germany and Austria since WW2. For example, German Bundesliga side Hoffenheim were in the second bottom local tier in the mid-80's, before they started their climb through the stages and ended up where they are now. Not through application and buying in, but by winning one league after the other and getting promoted to the next one. Sponsor Mr Hopp wasn't involved until around 2000...

Maybe AFC Wimbledon is another potential example stalled a bit at the moment but with those fans they will recover.

 

Ross County and ourselves made it

 

I remember myself watching Wigan   Athletic   in The Lancashire mid-week cup final , not that long ago they lost too to Rossendale United.

 

Who knows what the future holds.

 

NB The Quote thingy was not working to I had to adapt the post from above

[CaleyD]

NB The Quote thingy was not working to I had to adapt the post from above

 

Possible ID-Ten-T error....seems to be working ok now.

[Laurence]

NB The Quote thingy was not working to I had to adapt the post from above

 

Possible ID-Ten-T error....seems to be working ok now.

I deleted my cookies  posts are quicker and easier now ty

[Alex MacLeod]

Now we have Green's proposal http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21010647

[CaleyD]

So he's out of Scotland the first chance he gets, but wants to dictate what league setup should be put in place before he leaves....Mad Vlad could have some competition!!!

[starchief]

...except Green is right! It doesn't matter who it's come from, Glasgow or Berwick Rangers. It also doesn't matter if Rangers win, lose or draw in the process. Nor does it matter if you tag a 'the' on the front. It's a much better suggestion than the current dog's dinner and that's all that matters. Anything else is cutting off the nose to spite the face (for the great majority of supporters anyway, who would approve this from amy other chairman).

[gingerjaggy]

yeah but does greens proposal contain the same structural changes as Caley D says this proposal isn't great but the the structural issues with financial distribution, one league body and better fairer voting system. The idea of a 14-14-14 sounds good but without the main structural isues it sounds like green has put this forward to make sure rangers regain the power they lost with the demotion. Green is a very clever man who has tried to play the dashing hero in rangers fans eyes and now he is trying to be any supporters champion by proposing a league structure that fans will want more than what is on the table. I for one would prefer 12-12-18 with the structural change that will make things more democratic so that change can continue to develop in the future than a nicer 14-14-14 that relly is just a carrot on a stick to get backing so that rangers get back up in a few years and we return to a status quo because it doesnt have the structural change. 12-12-18 love it or hate but at least the proper changes behind the scenes will mean that it will be easier to change in the future than return to the old firm dictatorship.

[dougiedanger]

yeah but does greens proposal contain the same structural changes as Caley D says this proposal isn't great but the the structural issues with financial distribution, one league body and better fairer voting system. The idea of a 14-14-14 sounds good but without the main structural isues it sounds like green has put this forward to make sure rangers regain the power they lost with the demotion. Green is a very clever man who has tried to play the dashing hero in rangers fans eyes and now he is trying to be any supporters champion by proposing a league structure that fans will want more than what is on the table. I for one would prefer 12-12-18 with the structural change that will make things more democratic so that change can continue to develop in the future than a nicer 14-14-14 that relly is just a carrot on a stick to get backing so that rangers get back up in a few years and we return to a status quo because it doesnt have the structural change. 12-12-18 love it or hate but at least the proper changes behind the scenes will mean that it will be easier to change in the future than return to the old firm dictatorship.

 

Rangers were not "demoted". The club was liquidated and Green formed a new one, for which rules were bent to make sure it entered the Scottish League.