Flags of Inconvenience

[Guest birdog]

Firstly I am not sure where this thread belongs so if the mods wish please feel free to move it.

LINK TO COURIER

These are not questions that Inverness Caledonian Thistle usually finds itself debating, but the club has opened a can of worms by preventing a fan displaying the Palestinian flag during last weekend's cup tie against Partick Thistle.

John Martin had made his way to the match after taking part in a demonstration in the city centre against the Israel's continuing attack on Gaza. As he went to buy a half time drink, he was told by stewards that a complaint had been made and if he did not put the flag away he would be ejected.

Yesterday the club explained its policy was not to allow any flags or banners that could be considered political or offensive. This may be a laudable aim but is one that will be very difficult to enforce consistently.

It could be argued that every national flag is political. By carrying one a person is announcing that they identify themselves with that country in some way. Certainly the Rangers fans who displayed Union Flags at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium earlier this month were making political points based on religious and racial intolerance every bit as controversial as anything the middle east can come up with.

And the same steward who so assiduously followed up the complaint against Mr Martin last Saturday will find plenty to do in the away fans' end next month, insisting on the removal of the countless Irish Tricolours that the Celtic supporters will no doubt bring with them.

Even the Scottish Saltire might be offensive to some, laden as it is with suggestions of Scottish independence.

But no Rangers fans were asked to take down their Union Flags, and you can be certain that Celtic supporters will be able to wave their Irish flags undisturbed for 90 minutes because the club's best intentions are quickly set aside when numbers are against them. Mr Martin was an easy target, seven thousand Rangers fans were not and so were left alone.

The club has form on this issue, causing controversy last season when several home supporters were ejected for singing (non-offensively but loudly) in the main stand, while the massed Glasgow hordes were allowed to sing their sectarian songs in the away seats. Although a Rangers fan was arrested at the recent match for chanting, he was sitting in the home end and easy to isolate.

We agree with the club that a football stadium is no place for politics or racial hatred. But if it is going to take a principled stand its enforcement policy must be seen to be fair, or else it will be the one being accused of prejudice.

Sorry for the C and P but it's too long to retype a summary.

This story opens up a lot of topics for discussion but the one I am mainly interested in is the ability of the club to censor supporters. As stated in the story ICT have a policy of removing flags and banners which may be considered offensive. One man's offence is another man's stance. Does this now make it an ejectable offence to display a "Brewster Out" banner? Will the club take action against Celtic supporters flying the tricolour, a symbol of Irish resistance against our home country? or Rangers fans flying the Union Flag, a symbol of 400 years of Westminster oppression? Like the story says this has opened up a whole new can of worms.

[MrsICTFC]

It could be argued that every national flag is political. By carrying one a person is announcing that they identify themselves with that country in some way. Certainly the Rangers fans who displayed Union Flags at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium earlier this month were making political points based on religious and racial intolerance every bit as controversial as anything the middle east can come up with.

Sorry for the C and P but it's too long to retype a summary.

This story opens up a lot of topics for discussion but the one I am mainly interested in is the ability of the club to censor supporters. As stated in the story ICT have a policy of removing flags and banners which may be considered offensive. One man's offence is another man's stance. Does this now make it an ejectable offence to display a "Brewster Out" banner? Will the club take action against Celtic supporters flying the tricolour, a symbol of Irish resistance against our home country? or Rangers fans flying the Union Flag, a symbol of 400 years of Westminster oppression? Like the story says this has opened up a whole new can of worms.

I agree with the highlighted point, where will it stop if this is the case? What about offensive clothing i.e. if he had this flag printed on his t-shirt, what would happen then?

[CaleyD]

There's two issues here.....

1. The inconsistency between treatment of home and visiting fans.

2. The fact that there's people in positions of authority on match days who think that just because they dislike or disagree with something then it's automatically a breach of rules/guidelines.

Furthermore, I believe that the way in which Stewards are being asked to handle these things is nothing short of harassment....a view that was backed up with an informal chat I had with a solicitor following my situation at the Aberdeen match when they tried to have my "Brewster MUST Go" banner removed.

[Scotty]

I am sure this will be a very interesting debate. I am equally sure that decisions on flags are a hard one to call consistently for the club too and this looks like another can of worms.

I am kind of in two minds about this one. The guy has the right to express his opinion as he sees fit, and obviously had the opportunity to do so at the demonstration earlier in the day. You would also have to say the same thing about anyone who is supportive of the Israeli side of this situation and carries an Israeli flag around with them. However, I dont really see how either flag has anything to do with an ICT -V- Partick Thistle match and on that basis I would probably have said the same thing to the guy.

The comparison with the OF is like comparing Apples and Oranges (so to speak) .... those sides have traditionally been associated with the two sets of flags their supporters display and regardless of our distaste for the sectarian element of each club's support, that is how it is and either flag is valid. Equally, so is a "Brewster Out" banner or any flag that broadly represents the strip colours of either team. Neither Partick Thistle or Caley Thistle are associated in any way shape or form with either Israel or Palestine so the display of either flag to make a political point at a sporting event is bogus. I can sympathise with the guys point of view, but as they say "there's a time and a place".

If I can throw another one into the mix ..... the confederate flag / Southern Cross .... I have seen this displayed at ICT games in the past and although I have no problem with it or the person who brought it as I know it was brought because it is primarily red and blue and has its roots in the saltire, there are many who could find that one offensive too. It may not be as sensitive an issue in Scotland, but the display of that flag in North America has variously become associated with slavery, white supremacy, Ku Klux Klan etc whereas others see it as merely a display of "Southern Culture". Its all about context ......

At the end of the day, I would prefer it if the club did not get involved in deciding what is or is not offensive about ANY flag or banner unless it contains very specific and easily identifiable elements (eg. "Big Jock Knew"). Instead, let the police make the decision as to the offensiveness of flags/banners and take appropriate action based on that. They have a wider range of options, from merely telling someone to put it away right up to arresting the person and allowing them to have their day in court ......

[Libero]

i completely agree with the fact that the same rules should be applied to all supporters and i think this has not been the case at TCS over the past couple of seasons. I have seen on numerous occasions our fans being asked to sit or even ejected for not sitting but have had to endure hundreds of old firm fans stand to sing their songs. Likewise where banners displaying views which are not politicial, racist or prejudiced are removed from the home end, away fans are free to fly what the want. Inconsistency to the extreme here!!

i think a lot of the time it comes down to the number of offenders. Its easy for a steward to ask for one flag or banner to be removed or ask one or two people to sit down but its a completely different task asking a hundred celtic fans to remove tricolours or a hundred rangers fans with their union flags. IMO where a steward is unable to handle a large group of fans then this is where police must intervene.

edited to correct some dodgy grammar!

Edited January 16, 2009 by Libero

[Caley Stan]

There are two issues here ? the policy of removing flags and the inconsistency with which that policy is enforced. Hopefully we?ll discuss the flags themselves as this thread progresses, but there can be little argument about the parity of enforcement. The Editorial sums this up nicely in one short sentence:

Mr Martin was an easy target, seven thousand Rangers fans were not and so were left alone.

We have heard this point made time after time, yet the club continues to victimise individuals and small groups while ignoring larger, possibly far more offensive, groups because they are more difficult to police. Regardless of how people feel about flags, if the club is unable to pursue this policy consistently then they shouldn?t pursue it at all.

One further point - while it?s nice to see that the Courier isn?t afraid to criticise the club, why is it incapable of doing so in the sports pages?

[SMEE]

Lets face facts...the ICT support is treated with utter contempt by those in positions of power down the Longman. It is obviously been treated as some kind of power trip.

[Scotty]

precisely why I suggested the police deal with flags/banners as they have to justify themselves further up the line through superiors, procurator fiscal and eventually the courts if it goes that far.

[Harry Chibber]

I'd be offended by the idiot

[Caley Stan]

Courier Story - Flag Protest Falls Foul of Football Officials

In response to the incident, a spokesman for Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club said: "We are against anyone bringing into our ground any flags which are political or which could be offensive to others. Ours is a club at which anyone is welcome."

When asked about the club's stance on such flags as the Union Jack or the Irish Tricolour in the stadium, the club declined to comment further.

So who decides which flags are political or offensive?

The man was not breaking any law or SPL rules by bringing the flag into the stadium and the club should respect his, or anyone elses, right to act within those laws and rules.

As Caley D says above, it seems that there are people in positions of authority who are imposing their opinion of what is acceptable with scant regard for the rules.

[Guest birdog]

precisely why I suggested the police deal with flags/banners as they have to justify themselves further up the line through superiors, procurator fiscal and eventually the courts if it goes that far.

Tough one Scotty, it is my belief that the police at sporting events generally do not interfere unless an offence has been committed or is suspected of being committed, I may be wrong.

EDIT I just read through your post previous to this one and you are making exactly the same point as me, sorry.

Edited January 16, 2009 by birdog

[CaleyD]

Think that's the point Scotty is getting at, birdog. If flags and/or banners are offensive then it is covered by law and therefore it should be something the police deal with and club/stewards should not be taking law into their hands by getting involved.

[Guest birdog]

Think that's the point Scotty is getting at, birdog. If flags and/or banners are offensive then it is covered by law and therefore it should be something the police deal with and club/stewards should not be taking law into their hands by getting involved.

LOL yeah, I edited my post at the same time as you posted this.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I'd be offended by the idiot

Why would you be offended and why is he an idiot ?

[Alex MacLeod]

I'd be offended by the idiot

Why would you be offended and why is he an idiot ?

He's not an idiot for joining a protest against something he believes in and he certainly didn't set out to offend anyone by his actions or belief's. He may have been a bit silly to take his flag to a football match. But not an idiot.

If he is then everyone on this site who expressed demonstrative comments, and calls for action, against Craig brewster is also an idiot. Everyone, around the world, who stands up for their beliefs must also be idiots.

The debate about the tricolour and Union flag is a bit different though. Those flags have been used to represent the two Glasgow teams ever since their formation and so have become a part of the culture that is the twins of evil. People may be offended by them but no law says one can't display them. Howdens would probably want me kicked out of the ground if I were to walk in with this flag but what the hell. Doesn't make me an idiot.

[stevico1]

I'd be offended by the idiot

Why would you be offended and why is he an idiot ?

He's not an idiot for joining a protest against something he believes in and he certainly didn't set out to offend anyone by his actions or belief's. He may have been a bit silly to take his flag to a football match. But not an idiot.

If he is then everyone on this site who expressed demonstrative comments, and calls for action, against Craig brewster is also an idiot. Everyone, around the world, who stands up for their beliefs must also be idiots.

The debate about the tricolour and Union flag is a bit different though. Those flags have been used to represent the two Glasgow teams ever since their formation and so have become a part of the culture that is the twins of evil. People may be offended by them but no law says one can't display them. Howdens would probably want me kicked out of the ground if I were to walk in with this flag but what the hell. Doesn't make me an idiot.

No Alex it would make you a legend :thumb04: :018:

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Howdens would probably want me kicked out of the ground if I were to walk in with this flag but what the hell. Doesn't make me an idiot.

Alex - looks like a County Down GAA flag

Edited January 16, 2009 by Tichy_Blacks_Back

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Well I would be offended.

[Proctor]

Given the flag to me symbolises something offensive I would take offence to its display. Besides football should be about escapisum and we should leave politics at the turnstyle unless directly linked with the club.

[MrsICTFC]

Well I would be offended.

Can you explain why?

[Guest birdog]

Well I would be offended.

Can you explain why?

Oh I do love it when the Caledonian/Thistle argument rears it head on here, it teaches the young uns some history.

[Caley Stan]

Given the flag to me symbolises something offensive I would take offence to its display. Besides football should be about escapisum and we should leave politics at the turnstyle unless directly linked with the club.

Proctor, are you willing to be the first person on this thread to explain what is offensive about a Palestinian flag?

As for football being about escapism and politics being left at the turnstyle - who are you to decide those things?

[Proctor]

In my opinion it is wrong for people to side with EITHER side of the conflict as it is exceedingly complex and both sides have blood on their hands., although Israel have not exactly kept a clean sheet in terms of minimum damage to the unfortunate people caught up in this conflict and I think their recent action which resulted in the obliteration of aid in the GAZA region is utterly despicable. I still feel they are just retaliating after years of similar treatment.

We must remember Palestine as a state have shown utter contempt for Israel's right to exist and have been firing rockets into the territory for years. HAMAS who won the 2006 election in the region promote anti-Semitism with such outlandish claims that both World Wars and countless revolutions were caused by Jews, as well as comparing Jews to pigs, rats etc. For years the first point on their manifesto was "a call for the destruction of Israel? The fact that they are putting civilians in the region of Gaza in harms way by blending into the innocent civilian population. I consider HAMAS a terror organisation due to numerous suicide bomber attacks. As this organisation holds power in Palestine. Their flag evokes connotations of hate, intolerance and ignorance.

To me it seems there is a deep routed undertone of anti Semitism in some of the protests I have witnessed. I saw protests on television where right next to people with Palestinian flags, there were people with banners featuring the Star of David and a swastika; showing a complete lack of knowledge in terms of history and the current conflict.

Stan, as far as leaving politics at the turnstiles is concerned. I work hard earning money, football is my treat, my 90 minutes of escapism. I just want to my hometown team who have given me so many great moments in my short life. As far as I'm concerned the only politics that I want to be involved with this should be club related. The only reason I would get involved in those are because I want to see my team to as well as possible. If I feel that there is something wrong with the club that effects my and other peoples enjoyment of the games or the wellbeing of the club then I will make my voice heard. I would consider myself somebody who pays attention to the media. I read different national and local papers and watch various news programmes, but if I wanted the issues rose in these forms of media outside of the five minute sports roundup of the back pages. I would go watch one of the many supporters? buses that leave the Sneck on a Saturday morning and watch the bigot brothers. In truth I'd rather eat my own foot than do that. Regardless of my political feelings towards ANY situation in world politics. I will keep them away from Caley stadium. If you choose to air your feels on devolution, the crisis in Zimbabwe, Celebrity Big Brother etc at the games then that?s your choice I won't stop you, but to me that?s not what the game is about.

[weeStie]

Well said, Proctor, my boy. Couldn't agree more.

[CaleyD]

Don't think the football part of the forum is the place to be arguing the politics behind the flag (there's a thread on Anything Goes, Serious Topics for that). The discussion here is about whether or not the club have the right, or should be intervening with people who bring a flag in to the game.

It's not about what the flag stands for, or is deemed to stand for, it's about a persons right to Freedom of Expression (within the confines of the law).

Also, where do you draw the line on offensive? Should ICT Flags and Scarves be banned because they might offend/antagonise the opposition?

For those who say the club were in the right simply because they do not agree with the person involved, I'd say you better be careful for what you wish for. You never know the day when you may feel so strongly about something that you want to wave a flag or banner and if you're told you can't because someone else dislikes it, then you nobody to blame but yourself.