Shane Sutherland

[Renegade]

Let me start by saying that in no way is this post a bash at Shane Sutherland, rather at the tactics put in place by the manager. How can Butcher not see that this is not, has not and will not work? It's utterly farcical. Before the start of the season, Butcher was quoted in the media as saying that Sutherland was "the man to replace Hayes" and "had all the attributes to be a great winger". Really, I mean really?! His balance is not the best, he's fairly slow and distribution-wise is very poor. He also has a turning circle akin to a milk float!

I can think of no appearances where he's had a good game on the wing and looks more like the quintessential centre forward that he is, who gets into the box and hits the ball first time. That is the way he should be played. I know there's an argument for having an aerial force on the wing, but I've yet to ever see show us that this is part of his game.

In closing, I fear that Butcher will ruin this man. It surely can't help his game and will evaporate any confidence he has left. Time to either play him in his natural position up-front or not play him at all.

I'm not the only one who thinks this.......am I?

[AJS]

I agree, many say he is not up to scratch but i totally disagree with that. Butcher is not using him properly. He did this last season and is persisting with him as a wide player. He isnt one and never will be. Whenever he is on the ball he always drifts in, never looks to hug the line and hardly ever looks to cross the ball. He is a tall, strong bloke and he has a sweet left foot when he gets the chance, he is a target man - end of.

I dont really think he is seen as the replacement for Hayes. Probably just Butcher's way of sugar coating the fact that we are short on money for more players. We have next to no options on the wing or up front. Not saying what weve got isnt good enough, not at all but if we have another bout of injuries then we really are stumped.

But i agree, Shane needs to be played up front to get the best out of him. Better yet put him alongside Billy as he is no target man in this league, pair them and then see what happens. Could make a world of difference. We have young lads like Pepper waiting on the bench who could do much better on that wide right area.

[CaleyD]

Wish some of you could get to see what Shane is doing playing from that position in training....cause if he can start doing it in matches then it would be great.

[ictchris]

It's a valid tactic to have a big man out wide - Foran was tremendous in this role. The first section of this article is good on the rationale behind having a strong 'targetman' in a wide area - http://soccerlens.com/the-evolution-of-the-target-man/66361/ . Aside from specific tactics, we generally have a front four of McKay, Doran, Shinnie and Shane - the three players aside from Shane are smaller players. Nothing wrong with that but if we were to put Nick Ross (pre-injury) or Conor Pepper in Shane's position we'd have a front four of small, lightweight players.

The problem has been how we are playing. Shane has often had the ball feed to him deep, meaning that he hasn't had a chance to make an impact further up the pitch. Even so, he's actually had a few good runs and shots. What we need to do is get the ball to Shane further up the pitch, allow him to attack the full back and put pressure on them. If we were playing further up the pitch then we could provide better crosses and diagonal balls for Shane to attack.

Watching on TV on Saturday I thought we sat very, very deep and that isn't the way to beat Celtic, especially if you defend like we did. It also means that the likes of Doran and Sutherland find it difficult to have an impact as they get the ball in dangerous areas - Doran, Shinnie and Shane often had to drop back into our own half to try and get the ball. The best I've seen Shane play (again this was from my armchair, downside of being an exile) was the games against Celtic that we won 3-2 and the defeat last season to Dundee Utd. In the Celtic game, we pressed high up the pitch and Shane absolute beasted Izaguirre, who won player of the year that season. Against United, we were poor but Shane was responsible for most of our good positions and had some success against the United full back. Ultimately, we failed to create enough and were punished by a good United side that night.

Sitting too deep and playing too slowly and without dynamism is something we were guilty of on Saturday and it particularly affects Shane. We need whoever is in midfield and central defence next week to push up and our experienced players to help build confidence and attack the opposition, rather than sit off. I do have my doubts about Shane's actual ability but we aren't giving him a platform to perform.

Edited August 27, 2012 by ictchris

[Yngwie]

Good post, but oops!

we generally have a front four of McKay, Doran, Shinnie and Shame

[caleyboy]

Wish some of you could get to see what Shane is doing playing from that position in training....cause if he can start doing it in matches then it would be great.

You watching training now as well Caley D - you'll be in for the managers job next

[Yngwie]

Wish some of you could get to see what Shane is doing playing from that position in training

If only our opponents would field a team of cones........

[CaleyD]

Not really sure what's so funny about taking as much of an interest in the team I support as I can!!!

[caleyboy]

Not really sure what's so funny about taking as much of an interest in the team I support as I can!!!

touchy touchy - don't take everything so serious man

[starchief]

In a 4-2-3-1, I would have thought Shane would have been the obvious choice for the 1. That role is usually to win the ball and pass it/head it to one of the 3. Not actually to be banging in the goals themselves which looks to be more McKay's job.

[CaleyD]

Not really sure what's so funny about taking as much of an interest in the team I support as I can!!!

touchy touchy - don't take everything so serious man

You've totally lost me now....sorry.

[ICTGAZ]

I might be missing something but why not switch Mackay & Sutherland for the Arbroath game for a trial, it must be worth a go.

Shane's confidence is rock bottom i feel, he will never be a winger, he is a through the middle type of player, if he's doing a good job on the wing in training, why cant he transfer it to real game scenario?

I used to watch him, Nick Ross, Morrison etc in the 19's/ reserves and cant remember him being a dynamo winger then.

Mackay great shift each game but coming in from the wing might suit him, we need to try something as its not pretty or effective up there at the moment.

[+DoofersDad]

Wish some of you could get to see what Shane is doing playing from that position in training....cause if he can start doing it in matches then it would be great.

That's really interesting but yesterday on another thread I said:-

"But sometimes, no matter what coaches see day in and day out on the training ground, that form never translates itself to the match day situation and you just have to accept that something different has to be tried. Surely we are that stage with the way MacKay and Sutherland are played and it is worrying that Butcher persists with this. Remember when he first came here and persevered with Barrowman when Rooney was clearly a far better option on match days.

It must be frustrating for coaches when players who shine on the training ground perform poorly on matchdays. Equally it can be exasparating (in a nice way) when players who are nothing special in training do much better in matches. The skill is recognising these situations when they arise and responding positively to them. The concern with Butcher is that he seems to be too stubborn in persisting in what he thinks should work rather than recognising what actually does work."

I don't doubt that Sutherland is doing well on the training ground, but I find it hard to believe he is capable of the kind of traditional wing play of skinning the full back, getting to the by line and crossing. I am sure that what he may be doing well on the training ground are aspects of play which would be great attributes to a player up front. What he can also do well is to turn a defender and fire an early hard shot (usually over the bar, admittedly,but he finds the space and has a go).

If he is doing great things as a winger in training (and I don't doubt you) then that is really encouraging but only serves to strengthen my conviction that those skills linked with his physical attributes would make him an effective striker. I would love to see him play up front with Mackay. The fact is that whatever he may be doing in training, it didn't work playing him wide last season and it isn't working this season. Personally I think he could be a real star for ICT but he really has to play where he is most suited.

Even with Nick Ross sadly out for a few games, we have good options in midfield but we are lightweight (literally) upfront. I just don't see what Butcher has got to lose by trying Sutherland up front with MacKay. I think it could give us the real cutting edge we currently lack up front.

[caley100]

Wish some of you could get to see what Shane is doing playing from that position in training....cause if he can start doing it in matches then it would be great.

rory mcallister used to do great things in reserve matches...

Anyway, i kind of feel sorry for shane, he's no wide player despite what butcher bums him up to be.

Shane looked to be at fault for possibly 1st and definitely 3rd goal, midfielders HAVE to pick up opposition midfielders in set pieces, Shane failed to do this.

Looks to me like he is low on confidence, playing out of position and possibly not enjoying his footie just now.

I dont think he is an SPL footballer, but with such a small squad and no money to improve we are stuck with what we have.

[starchief]

I'd love to see Rory back. He looked a powerful player at Peterhead. He was only a kid when he was here. I'd love to see us take a chance.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

And Shane Sutherland is also a "kid" and in my opinion shows more promise than Rory and that is what frustrates me about the manner in which Butcher is slowly but surely destroying his self confidence. I can understand an amateur like CaleyD falling for the training excuse but if Butcher has fallen fer it - as he appears to have - then heaven help us. I can remember training with Kenny McKenzie and he was ace at centre forward and Penman was superb in goals.

Really good posts from Chris and Doofersgrandad who see it from a tactical and skill perspective. But the naricsisstic tendencies in Butcher will mean that he will play Shane wide forever.

[davie]

In my opinion, Shane is limited as a player and I can see why he plays where he does. he provides a useful "out" for Esson in the wide areas and has won about 60% of the balls knocked out to him in that area. It's what he does with them that is the problem. He doesn't appear to have the game intelligence to look a move or two ahead, which he has to in that role, especially in trying to provide the link to McKay. Where else do you play him? Central mid is probably his natural position (his scoring record would suggest his striking capabilities are average at best) but would he get a game ahead of Foran or OTJ or Draper? Probably not. I can see a day when Butcher plays two wide players in Doran and AN Other, and that will be that for Shane. As for McAllister, it's no surprise that a few SPL clubs have sniffed around him and quietly dropped their interest after a while. I wonder why? I suspect the answer is that he plain ain't good enough.

[ictchris]

Rory was rubbish for us, absolute garbage. I remember having an angry rant to TheMantis about his showing against Morton in the League Cup at half-time - one of the poorest performances I've ever seen from a Caley Thistle player.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Did you not watch Djebi Zade at Falkirk or Niculae at Midden ?

[Yngwie]

In closing, I fear that Butcher will ruin this man. It surely can't help his game and will evaporate any confidence he has left. Time to either play him in his natural position up-front or not play him at all.

I'm not the only one who thinks this.......am I?

Not at all, Shane clearly isn't a winger in the conventional sense. But here's a different school of thought to consider.

What if Terry has concluded that Shane simply isn't good enough to be a striker for us? And rather than ditch him, he's giving Shane another chance by trying to mould him into a different role?

Pure speculation on my part.

But one thing's for sure, Shane's shooting is atrocious, every attempt seems to get blazed high and wide.

[caleyboy]

At the moment, it seems his weaknesses outweigh his strengths so I'm afraid he's going to have to show a big improvement over the next few weeks or he will drift into the background. Like many others, he may show well in training but can't do it in game time - a problem HE has to solve.

[Council Juice]

I think he's an out and out target man. Big man to the little man type. I'd have him as the 1 with an attacking mid behind (Draper looks well suited but Shinnie is the main man) and Doran, Mckay and Pepper (who changed the Celtic game when he came on in my opinion.) as the wide men available.

He's not a winger. Start him out wide fine but somebody needs to overlap.

Unless we have a system like-

-GK-

-RCB- -CB- -LCB-

-LWB-

-RCDM- -CM-

-AMC-

-RW-

-ST- -CF-

It's a variation of a 4-3-3/3-4-3/4-2-3-1. Shane would take the CF role. Playing a little wide of the more central striker (ie McKay). He'd be used to win wide long balls from Esson and the likes of G.Shinnie will be required to overlap. In this situation when he's getting forward at any opportunity as Bobby Carlos did for Real (He's not superb defensively anyway) The LCB (King) covers him and the RCB (Meekings/Raven) drops in. The RCDM (Jones) will then cover RB and the RW (Doran) will revert to RM. Shane will be allowed to cut in when being overlapped and get in the box for crosses. The AMC (Shinnie) would have a free attacking role of sorts but would still be a midfielder doing the creating 1st, scoring 2nd. McKay is the fox in the box. CM would probably be Draper or Foran. When Shinnie isn't overlapping Doran on the wing would be encouraged to hit the bye line. Simples.

Terry, I'm on facebook. Get my number there.

[Council Juice]

Obviously the formation looks a little awry on the post but just put LWB out as an advanced left back and RW as a, well, RW.

[+Tree]

I have to say, for a lad who allegedly cannot play out wide, he managed to pretty much skin the Arbroath left back at will in the first half on Wednesday! If his shots were more accurate or Bullock did not pull off a good save he could have had a hat-trick as well.

May have been a different level to SPL, however perhaps explains what CaleyD was referring to with regard to his performance training.

[+DoofersDad]

Arbroath have shipped 15 goals in 7 competetive games this season so their defence is not good. I would expect the likes of Sutherland and Shinnie to look good against that kind of opposition. Neither looked good against Celtic so let's hope the performance against Arbroath gives them the confidence to dominate the Motherwell defence.

One worry about Sutherland (a player who I have always liked by the way) is his ability to give goalkeeping practice to fans in row R rather than the opposition keeper. Keeping the ball down is a basic skill which he surely must practice in training. On match days I have seen him smash the ball into the back of the net during the warm ups but when it matters it usually goes over the bar. It's frustrating - he's capable of being a very good player indeed.