Merger Talk

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

In my head and in my heart ICT are the reincarnation of Caley and I relish joining in (or starting!!) some of the ditties of olde. There are times in the Notth Stand that I wander back to the Howden End and there are probably more times away from home that it feels just like the seventies again - only thing missing is those brilliant Football Train Specials which were jam packed with Caley supporters. As many know I couldn't give a toss about the anti-jags nonsense as it never feckin existed. It was pure feckin banter and thankfully still feckin is - if not better !!

What gets on ma tits is ex-Caley boys following County. Stay away is understandable, crow at ICT failings is understandable but singing Anti-Caley songs from the Jail End is beyond feckin belief. Yes Caley WITH the same financial backing would have been a big club- much bigger than ICT - but ICT would now be a bigger club if many of the old Howden Enders had buried the hatchet and gradually moved on. So it is Caley in ma head and heart but ICT now til I die. I always agreed wiv much that Dougal said but this season has began to bring new young faces to the games, I walk through the streets of Sneck and I see more ICT shirts than Old Filth ones. The times they are a changing and ICT in current mode will grow and grow. - and in 5 or so years may emulate the Caleywho could have been.

[Huisdean]

 

It's quite simple Caledonian Fc had outgrown the Highland League, crowds were dwindling because by the late eighties there was no achievement in winning the title as it meant absolutely nothing

Had their been a proper pyramid system in the Scottish game Caley would have left Thistle a long way behind years ago, jags fans don't like hearing this but deep down they know had they not been taken over by Caley they would no longer be here in name at all

Jags fans to me are a very very strange breed, ICT are widely called Caley by 99% of Invernessians and also by the local and national media

The predominantly blue strip, The Caledonian Stadium etc etc I could go on but I don't really want to rub further salt in the wounds

Caledonian had the biggest support in the Highland League a lot larger than Ross County yet County have always had the better average attendances than ICT while they were in the same leagues

The merger has severly stunted crowds in Inverness no matter what the Jim Leishman worshippers like to spin as their story

I've said it before it will take a generation or two to pass before ICT will recover from the damage done twenty years ago

Dougal

Absolute nonsense Dougal. In the 80s and 90s, the Highland League was becoming dominated by the teams from the East and all three Inverness teams were not as strong as they had been. The fortunes of the Inverness teams tended to move in cycles with Caley/Clach and Thistle all having dominant spells although admittedly Caly were more dominant in the latter years. Before the mergers, both teams were dying on thier feet in terms of support and, while the merger certainly galvanised the caley support, it wasn't reflected in a massive surge in attendances.

Can we put all this to bed once and for all. I was and remain an ardent Inverness Thistle supporter but ICT are now my team and I support them 100%. If people still choose not to attend gamnes because of the merger then sod them and if they are supporting Ross County as IHE states, then I for one, don't want them in our support.

[old caley girl]

^^^^^^

What he said except I was a Caledonian supporter.

[Charles Bannerman]

It's quite simple Caledonian Fc had outgrown the Highland League, crowds were dwindling because by the late eighties there was no achievement in winning the title as it meant absolutely nothing

 

What a crock of disingenuous mince from the usual suspect!

Dougal seems to have forgotten (if he ever knew it in the first place) that during its last six years in existence, Caledonian FC never won any of the Highland Leagues major honours contested by all the clubs - ie the League, the League Cup or the Qualifying Cup. The last of these was the league which was won in the spring of 1988, a few months before Caley were routed 3-0 on their own ground by Jags in the Q Cup final replay.

That doesn't sound much to me like a team which had "outgrown the Highland League". But unfortunately Dougal does seem to suffer from this delusion which afflicted a minority of Caley fans that they were in some way invincible and a much bigger cheese than the club really was.

Maybe Dougal wasn't at Kingsmills Park in April 1988 to see the outright jubilation when Wilson Robertson scored the only goal of the game to give the three points which were needed to keep Caley in the title race. And presumably he wasn't at Grant Street a few nights later among the large presence of Caley fans who celebrated hysterically when Clach finally extinguished Buckie's challenge on their behalf with a 2 all draw.

These celebrations (and I witnessed them both) didn't sound much to me like the Highland League title meaning "absolutely nothing". And what these Caley fans were actually unknowingly celebrating was Caley's very last Highland League title, all of six years before the club became part of ICT. Because these last six years actually yielded very little - the Inverness and North Cups to be precise - as Peterhead, then (sorry to say it chaps!) Elgin then Ross County took control of the Highland game.

 

Get used to it Dougal. Caley were simply one of the bigger players in a provincial semi professional league. Five or six years into a phase of decline, they joined with Thistle and now, 20 years later, crowds have increased seven fold to watch Inverness football in the top half of the SPL.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[RiG]

Caledonian had the biggest support in the Highland League a lot larger than Ross County yet County have always had the better average attendances than ICT while they were in the same leagues

 

Have you got those figures to hand? Would make interesting reading.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I note that poor old Dougal is getting the abuse so I take it that there is a general agreement with my deliberations ?

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

 

It's quite simple Caledonian Fc had outgrown the Highland League, crowds were dwindling because by the late eighties there was no achievement in winning the title as it meant absolutely nothing

Had their been a proper pyramid system in the Scottish game Caley would have left Thistle a long way behind years ago, jags fans don't like hearing this but deep down they know had they not been taken over by Caley they would no longer be here in name at all

Jags fans to me are a very very strange breed, ICT are widely called Caley by 99% of Invernessians and also by the local and national media

The predominantly blue strip, The Caledonian Stadium etc etc I could go on but I don't really want to rub further salt in the wounds

Caledonian had the biggest support in the Highland League a lot larger than Ross County yet County have always had the better average attendances than ICT while they were in the same leagues

The merger has severly stunted crowds in Inverness no matter what the Jim Leishman worshippers like to spin as their story

I've said it before it will take a generation or two to pass before ICT will recover from the damage done twenty years ago

Dougal

Absolute nonsense Dougal. In the 80s and 90s, the Highland League was becoming dominated by the teams from the East and all three Inverness teams were not as strong as they had been. The fortunes of the Inverness teams tended to move in cycles with Caley/Clach and Thistle all having dominant spells although admittedly Caly were more dominant in the latter years. Before the mergers, both teams were dying on thier feet in terms of support and, while the merger certainly galvanised the caley support, it wasn't reflected in a massive surge in attendances.

Can we put all this to bed once and for all. I was and remain an ardent Inverness Thistle supporter but ICT are now my team and I support them 100%. If people still choose not to attend gamnes because of the merger then sod them and if they are supporting Ross County as IHE states, then I for one, don't want them in our support.

 

 Absolute nonsense Huisdean , Caley won the league 4 times and were runners up on 3 occasions during the 80's . I realise this is no great achievement compared to thistles record from the same era

[+bughtmaster]

Well there's always one at least who thinks differently, I always wanted an Inverness team playing in the major leagues of Scotland even as a young lad of thirteen, I was a strong Caley supporter/fan but I wanted to see at least a Highland team going South to put the big clubs in the shade.

 

When I was pedalling my message bike on a Saturday afternoon unable to get to the matches my mind was always on whatever match Caley were playing so many an egg got broken and I would shamefacedly knock on a wifies door and apologise for a non existant  lorry running me into the pavement kerb and ruining her eggs. A story that often got me the sympathy vote and a bigger tip. Then I would make my way towards Telford Street lay my bike against the fence ,climb onto the bar of the bike and get a five minute view of the proceedings before going back to an irate boss for taking so long.. 

 

Then would come the big matches in the qualified rounds of the Scottish cup, Caley would get some good draws and that's when I thought if only we pooled the three Inverness clubs we could beat that lot.

 

The point I make is why oh why isn't Inverness football public happy with what has transpired and getting fully behind the ICT instead of bickering in a small minded way?

[Scotty]

 

Caledonian had the biggest support in the Highland League a lot larger than Ross County yet County have always had the better average attendances than ICT while they were in the same leagues

 

Have you got those figures to hand? Would make interesting reading.

 

 

 

not always, but yes, they did have higher averages than ICT for 8 of the 10 seasons where both were in the same league.

 

The first couple of seasons were within a couple of hundred or so and very likely effects of the merger on the ICT side coupled with some Jaggies who would not go to Telford street. By the time we moved into TCS and won the 3rd div in 96/97 we were well above them and the following year, both teams saw their average drop considerably (because of no derbies presumably). From 2000 to 2004 County were well above ICT in attendance average, but that also coincided with the famous (infamous) jokes about the very real padding of the figures by counting season ticket holders who had not actually entered the ground on any given match day.

 

ICT obviously got a bump entering the SPL and some of that carried through when we were relegated as we had 1000 more than County, and this season, County were about 400 above us, but remember, they had 3 games against Celtic at home in the 6K range and we only had 2, plus you have to consider the anticipated SPL 'bump' so it will be interesting to see how it pans out next season when both of these top six teams battle it out 

 

 

94/95 RCFC = 1566, ICT = 1276 both in SFL3

95/96 RCFC = 1749, ICT = 1579 both in SFL3

96/97 RCFC = 1789, ICT = 2495 both in SFL3

97/98 RCFC = 1330, ICT = 1762 RC in SFL3, ICT in SFL2

98/99 RCFC = 1643, ICT = 2119 RC in SFL3, ICT in SFL2

99/00 RCFC = 2293, ICT = 2282 both in SFL2

00/01 RCFC = 2789, ICT = 2133 both in SFL1

01/02 RCFC = 2757, ICT = 2045 both in SFL1

02/03 RCFC = 2678, ICT = 2181 both in SFL1

03/04 RCFC = 3203, ICT = 2374 both in SFL1

04/05 RCFC = 2336, ICT = 4067 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

05/06 RCFC = 2302, ICT = 5061 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

06/07 RCFC = 2344, ICT = 4814 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

07/08 RCFC = 2246, ICT = 4753 RC in SFL2, ICT in SPL

08/09 RCFC = 2225, ICT = 4457 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

09/10 RCFC = 2465, ICT = 3509 both in SFL1

10/11 RCFC = 2358, ICT = 4526 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

11/12 RCFC = 2745, ICT = 4023 RC in SFL1, ICT in SPL

12/13 RCFC = 4429, ICT = 4038 both in SPL

[The Mantis]

during its last six years in existence, Caledonian FC never won any of the Highland Leagues major honours contested by all the clubs - ie the League, the League Cup or the Qualifying Cup.

Not entirely true......I'm on holiday so doing this from memory (my memory not being what it was but I still have a few years on ol' Central Belter).

Caley won the Q-Cup in 1991-2 and went on to have a superb Scottish Cup run, ending in a Round 4 replay at the end of February at McDiarmid Park.

While County had been humbled 7-4 at Berwick in their first tie, leaving them more or less free to concentrate on the league, Caley suffered a bit of a backlog which probably cost them the League title. A tired-looking Caley team lost 3-1 at Dingwall, leaving them with the task of winning their final 3 matches to take the title. As I recall they lost at home to Fraserburgh in midweek which put paid to that.

Edited June 3, 2013 by TheMantis

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 Absolute nonsense Huisdean , Caley won the league 4 times and were runners up on 3 occasions during the 80's . I realise this is no great achievement compared to thistles record from the same era

 

 

Yes indeed they did, but statistics like this do seem to stick disproportionately in the minds of people like Dalneigh Caley - who presumably was a Howden Ender of the 80s. Caley equally won very little during the 50s, for much of the 70s and (as already illustrated) in the final 6 years from 1988 onwards. They never had the permanent greatness which a number of people delude themselves into believing was the case.

One of the problems of the "militants" of the merger years was that they had this rose coloured spectacles view of the 80s and tended to generalise it across a much wider period which is simply inaccurate. (Apart from IHE who spent most of the 80s trying to recover from the 70s!) They also failed to appreciate that by 1993/94 Caley was just a shadow of the team of the 80s - which they had deluded themselves into imagining was normal service for Telford Street, which it wasn't.

Caley was a superb club with which I grew up - but let's keep things in realistic proportion (and note my modest correction in post #387)

Edited June 3, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Charles Bannerman]

 

during its last six years in existence, Caledonian FC never won any of the Highland Leagues major honours contested by all the clubs - ie the League, the League Cup or the Qualifying Cup.

Not entirely true......I'm on holiday so doing this from memory (my memory not being what it was but I still have a few years on ol' Central Belter).

Caley won the Q-Cup in 1991-2 and went on to have a superb Scottish Cup run, ending in a Round 4 replay at the end of February at McDiarmid Park.

 

I stand moderately corrected. At the original time of writing I didn't have a copy of "Against All Odds" beside me which I now do so I can quote what it does actually say on P4. "Indeed all Caley got in theri last six years after the 1988 League title were the Inverness Cup, the North Cup and the Qualifying Cup once each - thin pickings by their normal standards."

 

And don't give me this holiday crap... you're permanently on holiday (a state in which I will soon be joining you.)

[The Mantis]

Very slow connection here in the Hebrides so this post will probably appear sometime tomorrow....... maybe while you're doing registration Charles.

By the way Charles, can't help pointing out that in post #387, by referring to 'normal standards' on p4 of your book, you're contradicting post #386 somewhat (can't find my favourite 'whistling' smiley!).

[Charles Bannerman]

Very slow connection here in the Hebrides so this post will probably appear sometime tomorrow....... maybe while you're doing registration Charles.

By the way Charles, can't help pointing out that in post #387, by referring to 'normal standards' on p4 of your book, you're contradicting post #386 somewhat (can't find my favourite 'whistling' smiley!).

Mantis, that actually occurred to me too when I looked in the book for the quote in question. When I wrote that back in 1996-97, my perception was that the 1980s, arguably their best period ever, was a time for Caley which was a cut above a background of otherwise fairly consistent success, It was only a couple of years ago when I started researching the preliminary online chapter for the book which went on this site that I began to realise that there were actually more gaps in Caley's past record than I had previously appreciated - such as in the 50s and 70s.

 

 Rest assured if the book were ever to be reprinted, that could well become "the standards to which the Caley support had become accustomed during the 80s"

 

(But you will have read that already since the carrier pigeon I sent to the Hebrides will probably have got to you before this electronic version does  )

Edited June 3, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Charles Bannerman]

You know, I've just been reflecting for the last little while on where this thread is going.... or rather isn't.

Once again we have a member of the blue phonebox brigade with much of Torvean Quarry on his shoulder posting his usual complete drivel and succeeding in promoting dissent which really isn't there.

As a fairly keen but not fanatical Caley supporter from the mid 60s, I have been happy enough to move into the ICT age with fond memories of a lot that was very good taking place at Telford Street on the part of one of the top clubs in the Highland League. I am usually quite happy to accept that without being over analytical about it. As an Invernessian I also take much satisfaction from what Thistle did and what Clach continue to do. Rather than dissect this to death, I'd prefer simply to look back with a lot of satisfaction on these great past days.

But then, instead of celebrating all of that, and the more recent achievement of ICT getting to within 90 minutes of Europe, you find yourself instead almost talking down the old days in defence against Dougal's latest irrantional rant and 20 year old hissy fit of pique.

I might ask - why do we keep rising to this rubbish? And I have to admit that I am as bad as anyone for doing so. It's just that I can't bear to see blatant drivel talked without shooting it down.

But every time someone shoots holes in Dougal's latest wafer thin gallon can of p!sh, they are actually supplying him with attention which far outweighs any fundamental support for what he (or she) is ranting on about.

Once again I have to say... is Dougal REALLY a member of the blue phonebox brigade?

Or is he actually:-

 

A - An 80 year old staunchly pro-merger retired social psychologist indulging in some later life research OR

B - A secret agent in the pay of a rival SPL club with a mission to attempt to sew discontent among ICT fans OR

C - does he just need to get out a bit more?

 

Maybe someone should start a poll.

 

And maybe we should make a pact not to rise to Dougal's nonsense.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[caley100]

You forgot D Charles!

 

Its a member of the forum posting under an alias, aka Fruitbat- remember him?

 

Maybe technology has improved enough so that Scotty can put that to bed though.

[+DoofersDad]

B - A secret agent in the pay of a rival SPL club with a mission to attempt to sew discontent among ICT fans

 

Well, Charles, there's an interesting concept -  sewing discontent rather than sowing discontent!  Does this mean that where discontent exists it is an attempt to mend it and to bring or merge the two sides together?

 

Or is it just another good old journalistic typo? 

[CaleyT]

Its quite obvious to me - Dougal, Buckett and IHE are all the same person, posting under different names.

[Scotty]

But every time someone shoots holes in Dougal's latest wafer thin gallon can of p!sh,

 

I spat out my coffee reading this comment !!! hot coffee burns the nostrils. thanks Charles, a classic line from you

 

 

You forgot D Charles! Its a member of the forum posting under an alias, aka Fruitbat- remember him? Maybe technology has improved enough so that Scotty can put that to bed though.

 

Lets just say that even those trying to retain anonymity do leave a footprint behind. However, the data protection act would prevent me from saying anything more if i could be bothered checking into that suggestion .....  

[tm4tj]

B - A secret agent in the pay of a rival SPL club with a mission to attempt to sew discontent among ICT fans

 

Well, Charles, there's an interesting concept -  sewing discontent rather than sowing discontent!  Does this mean that where discontent exists it is an attempt to mend it and to bring or merge the two sides together?

 

Or is it just another good old journalistic typo? 

I think he's trying to stitch someone up

[Charles Bannerman]

B - A secret agent in the pay of a rival SPL club with a mission to attempt to sew discontent among ICT fans

 

Well, Charles, there's an interesting concept -  sewing discontent rather than sowing discontent!  Does this mean that where discontent exists it is an attempt to mend it and to bring or merge the two sides together?

 

Or is it just another good old journalistic typo? 

Ha ha!!! Don't know where I got that won   from    

[old caley girl]

More than ever Im conviced that Dougal is a wind up from OTB.

[Charles Bannerman]

More than ever Im conviced that Dougal is a wind up from OTB.

 

You mean you think he's a County sew and sow!

 

That will be my option B then!

[Huisdean]

 

It's quite simple Caledonian Fc had outgrown the Highland League, crowds were dwindling because by the late eighties there was no achievement in winning the title as it meant absolutely nothing

Had their been a proper pyramid system in the Scottish game Caley would have left Thistle a long way behind years ago, jags fans don't like hearing this but deep down they know had they not been taken over by Caley they would no longer be here in name at all

Jags fans to me are a very very strange breed, ICT are widely called Caley by 99% of Invernessians and also by the local and national media

The predominantly blue strip, The Caledonian Stadium etc etc I could go on but I don't really want to rub further salt in the wounds

Caledonian had the biggest support in the Highland League a lot larger than Ross County yet County have always had the better average attendances than ICT while they were in the same leagues

The merger has severly stunted crowds in Inverness no matter what the Jim Leishman worshippers like to spin as their story

I've said it before it will take a generation or two to pass before ICT will recover from the damage done twenty years ago

Dougal

Absolute nonsense Dougal. In the 80s and 90s, the Highland League was becoming dominated by the teams from the East and all three Inverness teams were not as strong as they had been. The fortunes of the Inverness teams tended to move in cycles with Caley/Clach and Thistle all having dominant spells although admittedly Caly were more dominant in the latter years. Before the mergers, both teams were dying on thier feet in terms of support and, while the merger certainly galvanised the caley support, it wasn't reflected in a massive surge in attendances.

Can we put all this to bed once and for all. I was and remain an ardent Inverness Thistle supporter but ICT are now my team and I support them 100%. If people still choose not to attend gamnes because of the merger then sod them and if they are supporting Ross County as IHE states, then I for one, don't want them in our support.

 Absolute nonsense Huisdean , Caley won the league 4 times and were runners up on 3 occasions during the 80's . I realise this is no great achievement compared to thistles record from the same era

True but 4 wins from 1980 to 1994 is hardly being a dominant force although, as you say certainly better than my team's achievments.

[clacher_holiday2]

If ICT's future was put on the line, do any of you think just a couple of hundred folk would step in to vote for our existence?

 

Either the alleged thousands of passionate Caledonian fans ruling over Inverness couldnt really be bothered to make the effort to save their club or they have never existed.
 
I've heard all the stories about fans being banned from voting but it would be impossible to shut out as many fans as some Caledonian fans think were around at the time.
 

The truth is that there has always been enough latent football fans in Inverness to support full time football.  They have always outnumbered the fans of the three Highland League sides combined by some margin.  All the Inverness teams got good attendances at in the cups v sides from down south, theyre no measure of a clubs fanbase.  I know as a kid I was dragged to see all three Inverness sides for cup games or sometimes the matches against each other, none of the three clubs could really claim me as a fan.

 

The potential was there for any of the three sides to gain league access and be where ICT are now, I think thats impossible to deny. 

 

Would Caledonian on their own have been a bigger club though?  Would they ****, they'd be the same as ICT are now.