The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[+DoofersDad]

 

Some amount of panic on here by the unionists, even the inner UKIP making an appearance.

Face it boys, the union is dead, come on over to the right side.

 

for any unionists

 

the orange order march is on the 13th

 

a nigel farage visit on the 14th

 

Keep your diaries clear!

 

What possible relevance would the odious orange order or Farrage have for supporters of the Union who have the best interests of Scotland at heart are trying to have a sensible debate on the issues that matter?  I do of course appreciate that these absurd references are merely a diversion to draw us away from the fact that the case for independence doesn't stack up on an economic basis.  But it is perhaps significant that you happen to know the dates of these visits?  Planning on joining one - or both?

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

Some amount of panic on here by the unionists, even the inner UKIP making an appearance.

Face it boys, the union is dead, come on over to the right side.

 

for any unionists

 

the orange order march is on the 13th

 

a nigel farage visit on the 14th

 

Keep your diaries clear!

 

What possible relevance would the odious orange order or Farrage have for supporters of the Union who have the best interests of Scotland at heart are trying to have a sensible debate on the issues that matter?  I do of course appreciate that these absurd references are merely a diversion to draw us away from the fact that the case for independence doesn't stack up on an economic basis.  But it is perhaps significant that you happen to know the dates of these visits?  Planning on joining one - or both?

 

 

 

I googled the dates because I know they will not help your cause at all....

 

remember you are the one defending the tories 

 

 

(it is also what happens when you get everyone you can to join the vote no camp)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

I am curious to find out your postion on the yes / no eu referendum?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

I take it you mean the YES / NO referendum on 18th September when we will be asked to vote for an Independent Scotland without knowing whether or not an independent Scotland will be in the EU or not, and if it is, under what terms.  I will be voting "NO" because I think that when we vote on matters of this importance we should know what we are voting for. 

[Ayeseetee]

I take it you mean the YES / NO referendum on 18th September when we will be asked to vote for an Independent Scotland without knowing whether or not an independent Scotland will be in the EU or not, and if it is, under what terms.  I will be voting "NO" because I think that when we vote on matters of this importance we should know what we are voting for. 

 

No I mean the possible 2015 uk eu referendum the one that could see scotland forcefully exititng the eu with the rest of the uk?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll

[Ayeseetee]

I can tell you are right-wing but how far right is the question 

 

 

will you vote no for scottish independence and yes to the uk leaving the eu?

 

 

 

 

 

 The Tory Government has actually increased public spending on the NHS in England in line with the pledges they have given. 

 

 

 

 

 

They'll be able to afford it if the Scottish MPs b*gger off North of the Border.

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

 

I take it you mean the YES / NO referendum on 18th September when we will be asked to vote for an Independent Scotland without knowing whether or not an independent Scotland will be in the EU or not, and if it is, under what terms.  I will be voting "NO" because I think that when we vote on matters of this importance we should know what we are voting for. 

 

No I mean the possible 2015 uk eu referendum the one that could see scotland forcefully exititng the eu with the rest of the uk?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll

 

To be honest, I don't know.  It is only speculation at the moment and I have not given any real thought to it.  I guess my gut feeling is that I would rather be part of the EU but my approach would be rather like with next weeks referendum.  My gut feeling 2 years ago was that I would rather Scotland stay in the Union but that I was open to persuasion that Scotland would be better off being Independent.  In the event, I have been strongly persuaded that Scotland will be better off in the Union.  Unlike with this referendum, I hope that if there is a "No" vote and we remain in the UK, any referendum on EU membership follows some level of negotiation of terms beforehand so that we have a clear picture of what we are voting for.

 

Of course, if there is a "Yes" vote and Scotland gets admitted to the EU I would hope there would be a referendum on that too.  After all, it seems that a key point for the YES campaign is that the Scots want to be in charge of their own destiny, but if Scotland is in the EU there will be an increasing number of things which the Scottish people have little say over.  We certainly won't get the European Parliament we vote for.  Ironically, whilst you and others try to link UKIP with the Better Together campaign, it is UKIP and the Tory right  who are keen to leave the UK for precisely the same reasons the "YES" campaign want Scotland to leave the UK.

 

As for my right wing credentials?  Well, I admit to having voted for the Lib Dems but never anything more right wing than that.

[Ayeseetee]

Fair enough it has only dawned on me that people might vote no for that reason!

 

 

I guess we will vote for what party we wanted after a yes and that might be a party that doesn't want into NATO or the EU.

 

 

lib dem / tory are no different judging the past couple of years 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

This thread is in need of some light relief.....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

Hopefully you can bring yourself to agree that a commitment from all 3 major political parties to give more powers for Scotland is a GOOD THING.

 

1979 was 35 years ago, a whole generation, and is pretty irrelevant to most of us these days, everything has moved on.  (case in point: the SNP were Tory allies that year)

 

As far as I am aware "Westminster" didn't promise anything back then, and presumably you are referring instead to the pledges of one Tory who was speaking in a personal capacity, it wasn't party policy and he wasn't even in government.

 

Now, though, if the UK PM is promising that this will happen, and that is backed by party policy for all 3 major parties, then it is pretty reasonable to believe that it will go through parliament, it will happen. 

 

Ed Balls has just said that  that there will be no single cross-party manifesto on further devolution to Scotland and that the existing offer is what it is. There will be no joint offer and no further powers offered over and about that.

 

Trust them, Yngwie?    How much have they changed since Thatcher lied to us in 1979...really...when you think of the lies the Westminster politicians have been telling for the last few years?  Does the following not read a lot like what is happening now?

 

[Ayeseetee]

[Yngwie]

Trust them, Yngwie?    How much have they changed since Thatcher lied to us in 1979...really...when you think of the lies the Westminster politicians have been telling for the last few years?  Does the following not read a lot like what is happening now?

 

The Herald, Feb 28th 1979.jpg

 

 

If I'd been old enough to vote then, heck even if I'd been just a few years older than 7 or so, I'd have seen that quote for what it was: a leader of opposition who was completely opposed to even a weak Scottish assembly making some vague and non-committal statement that alternatives could be considered. 

 

That is a world away from a rather more detailed promise of extra powers from the serving prime minister, backed by all the other main parties.  I wouldn't say that I "trust" any politicians as such, but on the balance of probabilities......

[+DoofersDad]

Ayeseetee, you appear to have completely ignored my previous post on this subject.  This cartoon is typical of lengths the YES campaign go to completely ignore the facts to produce misleading propaganda.

 

All three main parties in the UK Parliament support Britain being in Europe as did the British people in a referendum.  These three parties not only think Britain is better as part of the EU, they also think Scotland is better as part of the British Union.  That is an entirely consistent position.

 

However, the YES campaign (or at least the SNP) are fiercely opposed to Union with the UK but are keen to be part of the European Union.  That is an inconsistent position. 

 

In addition, whilst there is some pressure in the UK for a referendum on Europe, this is coming from the Tory right wing and UKIP who cite the same reasons as the "YES" campaign do for leaving the UK.  But at least they are consistent as they couldn't care less if Scotland left the UK.

 

It is just the SNP who are inconsistent here.

 

 

[Oddquine]

 

Trust them, Yngwie?    How much have they changed since Thatcher lied to us in 1979...really...when you think of the lies the Westminster politicians have been telling for the last few years?  Does the following not read a lot like what is happening now?

 

The Herald, Feb 28th 1979.jpg

 

 

If I'd been old enough to vote then, heck even if I'd been just a few years older than 7 or so, I'd have seen that quote for what it was: a leader of opposition who was completely opposed to even a weak Scottish assembly making some vague and non-committal statement that alternatives could be considered. 

 

That is a world away from a rather more detailed promise of extra powers from the serving prime minister, backed by all the other main parties.  I wouldn't say that I "trust" any politicians as such, but on the balance of probabilities......

 

 

So if you were that cynical then at that age, what on god's good earth has made you start believing them now when you are older and wiser? 

 

That detailed promises would be what, exactly.........and just how useful are they?  I haven't seen any detail..can you give a link? 

 

Anyway, it is the political parties which are making the offer, not the Government....because if it was the Government, they'd be breaking the purdah rules.

 

We can vote NO, there could be a constitutional convention, and the Government could then put the kybosh on anything decided, as "it was nothing to do with them, guv"...or, as with Kilbrandon and Calman, do picky and choosy about what they'll let us have, and then, by the time it gets out of the readings, it won't resemble what went in at the start...and it would still leave them able to take powers away if it suited later....as happened with energy..or even, if UKIP get their oar in post 2015, remove the Scottish Parliament altogether.

[Ayeseetee]

Ayeseetee, you appear to have completely ignored my previous post on this subject.  This cartoon is typical of lengths the YES campaign go to completely ignore the facts to produce misleading propaganda.

 

All three main parties in the UK Parliament support Britain being in Europe as did the British people in a referendum.  These three parties not only think Britain is better as part of the EU, they also think Scotland is better as part of the British Union.  That is an entirely consistent position.

 

However, the YES campaign (or at least the SNP) are fiercely opposed to Union with the UK but are keen to be part of the European Union.  That is an inconsistent position. 

 

In addition, whilst there is some pressure in the UK for a referendum on Europe, this is coming from the Tory right wing and UKIP who cite the same reasons as the "YES" campaign do for leaving the UK.  But at least they are consistent as they couldn't care less if Scotland left the UK.

 

It is just the SNP who are inconsistent here.

 

 

Sorry that was genuinely posted as a joke, I have debated enough tonight and I was just trying to lighten the mood plus I don't make political statements with cartoons!

 

 

(We are all on edge just now and I don't like it )

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

in the interest of balance

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

That's confirmed then..no new powers...... Alistair Darling says so!

 

Less than six hours after George Osborne's claim that the No campaign has an action plan to give Scotland more powers, the Better Together leader confirmed the reports were false telling SKY news that all new powers have already been announced.

 

Mr Darling said that next week's No announcement will merely be a timetable for when the Scottish Parliament could expect to be given the limited powers already forthcoming.

 

http://78.110.165.228/index.php/referendum/9708-better-together-new-powers-claim-collapses-within-hours

 

Goodie......to more or less quote a friend  "we'll have new powers to increase taxes on our own people, sending even more families into poverty, increasing the need for food banks, while still contributing billions towards the cost of Trident, House of Lords, illegal wars, etc......or cut services.  Do they really think we are that stupid? "

[Ayeseetee]

As someone who didn't care about politics since I was able to vote 6 years ago, this referendum has sparked that political part of me and while I have been keeping an increasing eye on the referendum and posting here, it has only dawned on me now that I am too new to this and that I really need to think things through before I challenge peoples opinions.

 

I love that we live in a democracy and we respect everyone's views, but I feel I haven't done that so well. so I am going to stop debating with others on this and just watch the pro oddquine, who can express my view far better than me to see if I can learn anything!

[Scarlet Pimple]

Post no. 1241. Thank goodness for a bit of levity. Ayesettee.  Ha! Ha!

 

The rate of exchange for the pound against the Canadian dollar has fallen. So that my British pension will now be worth less than it was a couple of days ago before the "Yes"  side went ahead in the polls. It's all uncertainty at this stage.

 

But wait (as they say in all the best  TV ads). Once the oil revenues start flowing towards Edinburgh instead of to Westminster we will see a difference no doubt.

 

The U K's debt is astounding and I can't help but wonder whether or not the Westminster Government ever balances it's budget and finds funds to reduce the overall debt in any way, shape or form?

Which poses another question: will a YES win for Scotland mean that the  new Governors of the Scottish finances will see it as a priority to reduce the Scottish debt at all? If not, all your plans will be out the window.....?

[Yngwie]

Which poses another question: will a YES win for Scotland mean that the  new Governors of the Scottish finances will see it as a priority to reduce the Scottish debt at all?

 

Quite the opposite Scarlet. Their stated plan is to increase it.

 

You noticed that the pound fell yesterday in light of a Yes outcome seeming more likely. The other thing that happened was that shares in companies based in or operating in Scotland fell sharply, and were in the main the biggest fallers on the stock market.  I heard an SNP chap on the radio dismiss this as just a coincidence, but it's not.  The world has decided that an independent Scotland will be a bad place to invest in, even despite the offer a corporation tax cut for the "fat cats".

 

Your hardcore nationalist will say "that's fine, we don't want these evil capitalists and bankers anyway" but the truth is this is very bad for jobs, bad for tax receipts, bad for our economy as a whole.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Yngwie

[GaliantGrunt]

I`m no political analyst or expert but I`d say the reason the pound fell yesterday was because the jitters are setting in because the current govt.

 dont have a clue what to do if a Yes vote wins the day, they have become complacent.

 

On another couple of things that have irritated me on an albeit minor view is the politician Douglas Alexander on the media over the last couple of days calling our country

SCOATLAND - where does this accent come from, plus Mr Darling yesterday saying on BBC news report yesterday that he doesn't want the country split up -  which country

was he talking about, is England going to crack in half - I`m not sure I`ve ever thought of the UK or the British Isles as one country-  however as I said I`m no expert, just felt the urge to say a bit.

[+DoofersDad]

On TV yesterday there was a SNP MSP stating that the fall in the pound was more likely a response to the news that the Americans may bomb the IS terrorists in Syria!

 

The YES campaign's responses to anything related to the economic case are simply bizarre as we get closer to polling day.    Oddquine's response to the news about the proposed devolution of tax raising powers is "we'll have new powers to increase taxes on our own people, sending even more families into poverty, increasing the need for food banks"!  So I take it the plan is to use the new powers to tax the poor, then?

[Sneckboy]

There's are even a YES conspiracy theory that the timing of the royal baby announcement was 'rushed forward'!

[+DoofersDad]

There's are even a YES conspiracy theory that the timing of the royal baby announcement was 'rushed forward'!

What's more, the happy couple have promised to call the baby Alex if there is a NO vote!

[GaliantGrunt]

As someone who didn't care about politics since I was able to vote 6 years ago, this referendum has sparked that political part of me and while I have been keeping an increasing eye on the referendum and posting here, it has only dawned on me now that I am too new to this and that I really need to think things through before I challenge peoples opinions.

 

I love that we live in a democracy and we respect everyone's views, but I feel I haven't done that so well. so I am going to stop debating with others on this and just watch the pro oddquine, who can express my view far better than me to see if I can learn anything!

 

Don't give up your posts- we need the feedback of  the `average` political viewpoint to keep it real & simmering......... without the extremists taking over the thread.

 

Now you`ve just made me post my 2nd thread on this I guess I`m going to be participating more now when I find the time.