Today's stewarding.

[DaveDargo]

Seems to me that we have a case of lack of preparation and communication that has led to unfulfilled expectations.

I agree it seems a lot of the people in the signing section seemed to think that it was an "anything goes" section where they would be left to do whatever they pleased.

The organisers of "the singing section" may have to take a deal of responsibility in this farce.

The idea is analogous to a public march, all details are discussed and agreed with the authorities in advance, not to do so is inviting anarchy.

If dialogue did take place and standing was planned but not discussed, then this was an act of sheer folly.

The supporters trust officials did try on several occasions to tell people to sit down but as you can probably tell this was ignored.

I would dearly like to stand at the game but alas the rules we have are in place for good reason.

Indeed.  Some (almost all infact) of the people on here seem to think it is only possible to sign whilst on your feet.  It is also quite hilarious that the fans seem to think that Mike Smith is the one to blame here.  Mike Smith didn't make the rules, he allowed the fans who wanted to sign to sit together.  Now I don't claim to know the exact law/rules involved here but I'm sure somewhere (probably at least on the safety certificate) it will say that you cant stand in the seated areas.  The fans anger directed at Mike Smith is misplaced and should, it would appear, be directed at the people who implemented the all seater rules for the SPL. 

However, the reaction by the stewards and police and the way football supporters are treated in general is pitiful.

The club, last game of the season and all, could very easily have turned a blind eye - if they could. I suspect its not their shout (pardon the pun) and the Match Commander has the say.

With the exception of the alleged threats from stewards I don't agree.  I was standing to start with, the section as a whole were told to sit down, some (most perhaps) didn't sit down and were thrown out, seems fair to me.  I sat down the first time the section as a whole was told to do so and was never bothered again.  It happens at most stadiums the fans (mostly kids) stand up, are told to sit down, don't sit down (or do sit down but then stand up as soon as the steward leaves) and act all shocked when they get thrown out. 

What it boils down to is either ignorance of the rules/law, stupidity, or some sort of desire to cause trouble.  The "but they're doing it too" argument is rather childish is it not.  I can see why people are annoyed when it appears that the away stand can stand up all game but I imagine it is easier to tell a small section to sit down that a whole stand. 

The rules are that in the SPL you are not allowed to have standing sections.

There are also rules somewhere stating that you can't stand in designated seating areas.

Therefore if you stand up for a prolonged period of time at a game don't be surprised if you get asked to sit down or thrown out.

The stewards were right to throw out the people that refused to sit down.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mike Smith ignores the complaints about standing as the rules/laws have nothing to do with him.

For clarification I don't agree with the SPL rules that don't allow standing sections to be used.

I do agree that you should sit in seated areas

*awaits abuse*

[Jay_7]

Indeed.  Some (almost all infact) of the people on here seem to think it is only possible to sign whilst on your feet.  It is also quite hilarious that the fans seem to think that Mike Smith is the one to blame here.  Mike Smith didn't make the rules, he allowed the fans who wanted to sign to sit together.  Now I don't claim to know the exact law/rules involved here but I'm sure somewhere (probably at least on the safety certificate) it will say that you cant stand in the seated areas.  The fans anger directed at Mike Smith is misplaced and should, it would appear, be directed at the people who implemented the all seater rules for the SPL. 

No it is not misplaced.  Mike Smith is ultimately responsible as he was the one in charge who issued the instructions to watch the singing section yet other sections around the ground were left alone.

What it boils down to is either ignorance of the rules/law, stupidity, or some sort of desire to cause trouble.  The "but they're doing it too" argument is rather childish is it not.  I can see why people are annoyed when it appears that the away stand can stand up all game but I imagine it is easier to tell a small section to sit down that a whole stand.

 

No not childish at all.  Either everyone stands or everyone sits.  Consistancy is vital here, if that doesn't happen how can we ever respect what is essentially men in fluorescent yellow jackets of ultimate power?

For clarification I don't agree with the SPL rules that don't allow standing sections to be used.

I do agree that you should sit in seated areas

*awaits abuse*

You sure have a funny way of not agreeing with the rules...  :008:

[RiG]

I can see why people are annoyed when it appears that the away stand can stand up all game but I imagine it is easier to tell a small section to sit down that a whole stand.

That appears to be the key thing here. People are annoyed at the inconsistency here. I don't agree with the "They are doing it to" argument with regards to Pars fans on Saturday. They hardly had anyone standing up.

But when you have an over crowded South Stand with people in the aisles, posing a much bigger safety risk, you have to question why the stewards do not do anything about that.

The answer, of course, is in your hypothesis.

The stewards were right to throw out the people that refused to sit down.

I would agree to be honest. It wouldn't have taken much to simply sit down but I would ask a couple of questions:

1) Was the force (allegedly) used to throw fans out excessive?

2) Did particular stewards threaten violence with fans who were already complying with them?

[SMEE]

Does this all mean that if ICT score a goal, all those who stand to celebrate are potentially going to get turfed out? They have to be consistant here. ICTFC and all involved in its running, has to take a good long look at themselves. It is an embarassment at times the way they seem to miss golden opportunities to generate extra intrest in the club. They should not be victimising the already **** poor amount of people who actually go the games. They seem to be missing the point of running a football club!

[RiG]

Does this all mean that if ICT score a goal, all those who stand to celebrate are potentially going to get turfed out?

I would imagine only if they stand celebrating it for a pro longed period of time.

[SMEE]

I was being facetious RiG :021:

[RiG]

Shame you feel like that Rosscoe.

You should have said something to me on Saturday....when I was in the signing section with you all  :011:

"Tannadice Loyal Army!"

[FortressICT]

oops is that u??sorry like didnt know that was you it was really aimed at sophia and i dunno who else.im just still ripping every1 should be in full support of what happened on sat and should be backing all the fans in section a

[+jagster]

The stewards were right to throw out the people that refused to sit down.

I agree in principle with this but if this is right for our own fans in section A then this has to be right for all fans at all games and at all parts of the ground, if there is not a full implementation of the law then any singular implementation is discrimination and should be answerable

[tm4tj]

We should all have returned letters of complaint through the trust. I feel we should let them deal with this matter on everyones behalf as they know the full story, from start to finish. The trust did the original spadework for this initiative, they will know exactly what we were allowed to do, or not to do. Unfortunately, standing is not allowed as we all know, but rules are the same for the whole stadium, and yes rig, lots of Pars fans stood throughout the game.

[+The_Sponge]

I stood up for 15 minutes at half time as did many hundreds of others - why is this allowed - it's still in a designated seating area.

[+jagster]

I stood up for 15 minutes at half time as did many hundreds of others - why is this allowed - it's still in a designated seating area.

Maybe the stewards and police were having a cup of tea then and never saw anyone? :023: :023: :023: :023:

[Guest Get_off_the_park_Wyness!]

Then why is it OK to stand for a prolonged period of time at half time?

The solution here is simple. Bring back standing areas. It can't be a health and safety issue - if it was then it would be banned in the lower divisions. County had a crowd of over 6,000 just a couple of weeks back most of them standing.

The whole 'all seater stadium' nonsense was nothing more than a self-preservation tactic to stop 'wee teams' from being able to come up, but now it doesn't even do that because the wee teams like ourselves and Gretna get to ground-share.

If we started a campaign to bring back standing areas we'd probably pull it off, the majority of fans and probably even pundits would support it.

[Guest theflamehaired1]

I honestly have trouble believing what I'm reading here.

Are some people seriously taking the side of the stewards?

The stewards who used excessive force and swore, threatened, etc. at our fans, simply for standing up.

And it wasn't so much refusing to sit down, as one poster suggested got folk thrown out, but merely questioning why it was necessary to sit.

"Sit down"

"But why do we have to sit down? They're standing."

"You're out. *%£&é$*"

And while it may be possible to sing whilst standing, it isn't as loud, and it's much harder to beat a drum when sitting. And it's not nearly as much fun. How can you do the bouncy sitting?

Then why is it OK to stand for a prolonged period of time at half time?

The solution here is simple. Bring back standing areas. It can't be a health and safety issue - if it was then it would be banned in the lower divisions. County had a crowd of over 6,000 just a couple of weeks back most of them standing.

Exactly!

[Alex MacLeod]

That last comment from Wyness is the only route to go. The club or Mr Smith cannot be held responsible for attempting to uphold the rules, even if there is incinsistencies, and it would be more effective if it were possible to get all fans from all clubs to petition the SPL.

After some fatalities and crowd problems at football stadiums in the late seventies / early eighties a law was passed through parliament that all stadia throughout the country with a capacity in excess of 10,000 to be all seated in order to improve crowd control and safety. Sadly, the SPL, during its formation, took this law a bit further and decided that everyone must sit in the seats. The leaders of the original ten clubs made the ruling and nobody ever challenged it. The problem for individual clubs is the threat of hefty fines from the SPL so they have to be seen to be complying with the ruling.

The SPL is the only governing body in the whole of europe who have adopted, and enforce, this stupid ruling.

Its the SPL who need to be petitioned not ICT.

[caley89]

your very correct there! there is already some clubs down in england who are trying to bring bak standing areas i.e. liverpool have th R.T.K. (reclaim th kop) organistion who are trying to get standing areas in th kop or anwhere in the stadium.

i think we need to focus on trying to get a standing/singing section where it would be out of everybodies way like section A of th main stand or sections A, B or C in th north stand. hardly anyone ever sits in sections A, B and C of the north stand!!

how and what does people feel about that??

[Scotty]

This whole thing is a can of worms ...... with every person / organisation being able to wiggle out of it somehow. After reading most of the comments on here over the last couple of days there are a few points I would like to raise.

1. UEFA / FIFA have declared that stadia should be all seated to qualify for certification. This is true whether you are in Scotland, England, Europe, South or North America or anywhere else in the world. [bMO Field in Toronto for example has just been opened as a 21000 all-seated stadium. All seated bacause it has to be as it is a venue for the U20 world cup in July]

2. I believe the relevant 'article' in UEFA's statutes is Article 16 - which says the following

[li]1 Seats for spectators must be individual, fixed (e.g. to the floor), separated from one another, shaped, numbered, made of an unbreakable and non-flammable material and have a backrest of a minimum height of 30 cm when measured from the seat.[/li]
[li]2 The use of temporary stands is prohibited.[/li]
[li]3 The stadium must be equipped with refreshment and catering facilities for all spectators in every sector of the stadium.[/li]
[li]4 In addition, the stands must meet the following requirements:

[li]Category 1 - Matches can be played before standing spectators.[/li]

[li]Category 2 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
(bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]
[li]Category 3 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
(bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]
[li]Category Elite - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
(bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]


[/li]

3. Whilst UEFA statutes do dictate that stadia at SPL level should be all-seated they do NOT actually say that the supporters have to sit in them - common sense might dictate this but the rule doesnt actually say it !!!

4. However - the SPL DID issue a press release/memo on the matter in 2005. This can be seen on the site at the following link: 'Its a Stand but You must Sit'. It basically says that local authorities might remove safety certifications for areas of grounds where clubs dont enforce the policy. Again this does not appear to be a 'rule' but more of a shot across the bows of those who would ignore this.

so thats the legal or 'suggested' mumbo jumbo out of the way ....... onto the day in question. Again, I have gleaned my opinions from what others have said and not from experience so I may be off the mark a little. please feel free to correct me where I am wrong  :004:

1. The normal 'match commander' was not available. The chief exec stands in for him. Knowing how things work at ICT, he was probably told to do it at the last minute and quite likely to be unaware of things that John Sutherland may have allowed to pass without sanction such as the first trial of a singing section that could reasonably be expected to be 'boisterous'.

2. In his defence, he appears to have been following the rules and 'suggestions' from the SPL and others. But he may have to shoulder the blame for allowing the application of these rules to have been too rigid !!

3. We have had an issue with the stewards at the TCS for YEARS. Complaints of harassment, poor treatment, lack of courtesy, arrogance and other things have fallen on deaf ears for those same number of YEARS. The perceived omnipotence of certain stewards seems to be at the crux of many problems within the TCS.

4. As we were not in the control room, we do not know how firm the CE told the stewards to be but from experience we know that certain ones when given an inch will take a **** site more than a mile. The singing section appears to have been a godsend for those particular ones and it distresses me to hear stories from fans of treatment that would get them a criminal charge for Breach or Assault had the roles been reversed. THIS MUST BE ADDRESSED ONCE AND FOR ALL WITH FAIRNESS AND CONSISTENCY APPLIED THROUGHOUT THE STADIUM. If you are applying one rule, then you are applying it to all at every game. You cannot be selective (eg. Old Firm).

5. If you are going to nail supporters for standing up in a designated singing area - its very difficult to get an atmosphere going when sitting down regardless of what anyone says to the contrary - then FORGET IT. You may as well not bother and just hand out a packet of murray mints to everyone entering the stadium so they can rustle the papers as they open them.

============================

 

I agree with others who say 'standing areas' should be brought back and it is within the power of clubs and national bodies to do this quite easily. UEFA dont say you cant have them ... only that you cant use them for certain games. ICT are not at fault for the 'rules' imposed on them but there was obviously a problem with the application of them (and this is NOT the first time we have been able to say that) so they DO have to shoulder the blame for at least a portion of this. Whether more blame lies at the door of the CE or whether it is the fault of the stewards, supervisors, the fans themselves or a combination of all parties remains to be seen/investigated and I urge anyone with details to email the supporters trust so it can be a matter of record and also so that the answers to these questions are not swept under the carpet.

Finally .... just for contrast

As I mentioned on another thread - I was at Toronto's game this weekend against Chicago. 20000+ fans in an all seated stadium.

Firstly, the stewards at BMO Field are pleasant, polite and seem to be there to enjoy themselves while assisting fans where required or giving them a nudge to behave if required (ie. I saw one chap quite politely tell a supporter who lit up a cigarette that it was not allowed and could he please put it out or pop outside via gate 3 to finish it - he did it firmly but with politeness and there was no hint of trouble).

For the duration of the match every single supporter in the 'supporters section' (about 6000 of us) was standing up. Its all-seated but there were no batallions of stewards wading into the crowd to force us back down, instead, they just watched the crowd to make sure there were no apparent safety issues, which there were not.

When Toronto scored the first of its 3 goals the stadium erupted with everyone dancing around and for the rest of the game the singing and chanting got louder and more 'active' - again the stewards did not feel the need to quash this uprising. They simply kept watch to make sure there werent actually any real issues to deal with. They did move in when a streaker tried to invade the pitch, and also when several fans went onto the pitch at the end of the game but they did not wade into the crowd to pull people out for simply enjoying themselves ......

The Chief Exec has been 'out there' for the last several months meeting supporters groups, turning up in bars where supporters were having events or watching away games and generally asking the fans "what can we do for you ?" ... isnt that refreshing !!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Ach - I just went straight to the feckin Innes.  :001:

To be honest I thought the wummin steward was having a feckin laff to start with. Everybody was standing up. The stewards were extemely apologetic to me and as I have said on another thread they told me that they had been specifically asked to turf me out.

I know I can be a drunken ersehole but the craic was brill on Saturday. But can we call for a singing section after that!!!

[Mee]

More than a handful standing in the south stand

[Scotty]

they told me that they had been specifically asked to turf me out.

should get your not inconsiderable erse over to a Toronto game my friend .... here you would be feted as a passionate supporter generating atmosphere rather than a troublemaker .......

[Scotty]

as things stand, this website doesnt have a wide enough reach over our fanbase to make an impact (no matter if its first hand witness statements from yesterdays game, or any incident) to effect a long term change of attitude towards our small but loyal support.

I wouldnt be too sure about that - we have got things done before - now that we are unofficial again, I wont be accepting any more 6am phone calls telling me to shut the forums down, nor removing posts on this matter unless there are specific complaints containing credible and specific reasons for doing so.

I have had a look at the logs for this weekend and there are some very interesting IP addresses showing up - and I dont mean the press.  :004:

[Joe DiMaggio]

This whole thing is a can of worms ...... with every person / organisation being able to wiggle out of it somehow. After reading most of the comments on here over the last couple of days there are a few points I would like to raise.

1. UEFA / FIFA have declared that stadia should be all seated to qualify for certification. This is true whether you are in Scotland, England, Europe, South or North America or anywhere else in the world. [bMO Field in Toronto for example has just been opened as a 21000 all-seated stadium. All seated bacause it has to be as it is a venue for the U20 world cup in July]

2. I believe the relevant 'article' in UEFA's statutes is Article 16 - which says the following

• [li]1 Seats for spectators must be individual, fixed (e.g. to the floor), separated from one another, shaped, numbered, made of an unbreakable and non-flammable material and have a backrest of a minimum height of 30 cm when measured from the seat.[/li]
  [li]2 The use of temporary stands is prohibited.[/li]
  [li]3 The stadium must be equipped with refreshment and catering facilities for all spectators in every sector of the stadium.[/li]
  [li]4 In addition, the stands must meet the following requirements:
  
  • [li]Category 1 - Matches can be played before standing spectators.[/li]
    [li]Category 2 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
    (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]
    [li]Category 3 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
    (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]
    [li]Category Elite - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed
    (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li]
    

[/li]

3. Whilst UEFA statutes do dictate that stadia at SPL level should be all-seated they do NOT actually say that the supporters have to sit in them - common sense might dictate this but the rule doesnt actually say it !!!

4. However - the SPL DID issue a press release/memo on the matter in 2005. This can be seen on the site at the following link: 'Its a Stand but You must Sit'. It basically says that local authorities might remove safety certifications for areas of grounds where clubs dont enforce the policy. Again this does not appear to be a 'rule' but more of a shot across the bows of those who would ignore this.

so thats the legal or 'suggested' mumbo jumbo out of the way ....... onto the day in question. Again, I have gleaned my opinions from what others have said and not from experience so I may be off the mark a little. please feel free to correct me where I am wrong  :004:

1. The normal 'match commander' was not available. The chief exec stands in for him. Knowing how things work at ICT, he was probably told to do it at the last minute and quite likely to be unaware of things that John Sutherland may have allowed to pass without sanction such as the first trial of a singing section that could reasonably be expected to be 'boisterous'.

2. In his defence, he appears to have been following the rules and 'suggestions' from the SPL and others. But he may have to shoulder the blame for allowing the application of these rules to have been too rigid !!

3. We have had an issue with the stewards at the TCS for YEARS. Complaints of harassment, poor treatment, lack of courtesy, arrogance and other things have fallen on deaf ears for those same number of YEARS. The perceived omnipotence of certain stewards seems to be at the crux of many problems within the TCS.

4. As we were not in the control room, we do not know how firm the CE told the stewards to be but from experience we know that certain ones when given an inch will take a **** site more than a mile. The singing section appears to have been a godsend for those particular ones and it distresses me to hear stories from fans of treatment that would get them a criminal charge for Breach or Assault had the roles been reversed. THIS MUST BE ADDRESSED ONCE AND FOR ALL WITH FAIRNESS AND CONSISTENCY APPLIED THROUGHOUT THE STADIUM. If you are applying one rule, then you are applying it to all at every game. You cannot be selective (eg. Old Firm).

5. If you are going to nail supporters for standing up in a designated singing area - its very difficult to get an atmosphere going when sitting down regardless of what anyone says to the contrary - then FORGET IT. You may as well not bother and just hand out a packet of murray mints to everyone entering the stadium so they can rustle the papers as they open them.

============================

 

I agree with others who say 'standing areas' should be brought back and it is within the power of clubs and national bodies to do this quite easily. UEFA dont say you cant have them ... only that you cant use them for certain games. ICT are not at fault for the 'rules' imposed on them but there was obviously a problem with the application of them (and this is NOT the first time we have been able to say that) so they DO have to shoulder the blame for at least a portion of this. Whether more blame lies at the door of the CE or whether it is the fault of the stewards, supervisors, the fans themselves or a combination of all parties remains to be seen/investigated and I urge anyone with details to email the supporters trust so it can be a matter of record and also so that the answers to these questions are not swept under the carpet.

Finally .... just for contrast

As I mentioned on another thread - I was at Toronto's game this weekend against Chicago. 20000+ fans in an all seated stadium.

Firstly, the stewards at BMO Field are pleasant, polite and seem to be there to enjoy themselves while assisting fans where required or giving them a nudge to behave if required (ie. I saw one chap quite politely tell a supporter who lit up a cigarette that it was not allowed and could he please put it out or pop outside via gate 3 to finish it - he did it firmly but with politeness and there was no hint of trouble).

For the duration of the match every single supporter in the 'supporters section' (about 6000 of us) was standing up. Its all-seated but there were no batallions of stewards wading into the crowd to force us back down, instead, they just watched the crowd to make sure there were no apparent safety issues, which there were not.

When Toronto scored the first of its 3 goals the stadium erupted with everyone dancing around and for the rest of the game the singing and chanting got louder and more 'active' - again the stewards did not feel the need to quash this uprising. They simply kept watch to make sure there werent actually any real issues to deal with. They did move in when a streaker tried to invade the pitch, and also when several fans went onto the pitch at the end of the game but they did not wade into the crowd to pull people out for simply enjoying themselves ......

The Chief Exec has been 'out there' for the last several months meeting supporters groups, turning up in bars where supporters were having events or watching away games and generally asking the fans "what can we do for you ?" ... isnt that refreshing !!!

The Uefa rules only apply to European games. In Germany many of the top teams, even Byern's new stadium, has terracing areas which are either transformed into seating for European matches or not used. So there is no reason whatsoever that we cant have terracing if they have it in Germany's top league

[Scotty]

Joe .... in my defence, I did say "I agree with others who say 'standing areas' should be brought back and it is within the power of clubs and national bodies to do this quite easily. UEFA dont say you cant have them ... only that you cant use them for certain games."

The SPL and other British footballing authorities seen to revel in trotting out the words "Taylor Report" or "Hillsborough" at every opportunity, and although I dont want to belittle the events at Hillsborough, the reality is that SAFE standing areas are in fact easily achievable.

[caley89]

The SPL and other British footballing authorities seen to revel in trotting out the words "Taylor Report" or "Hillsborough" at every opportunity, and although I dont want to belittle the events at Hillsborough, the reality is that SAFE standing areas are in fact easily achievable.

what about th bradford fire? that was in a seating stand and in some grounds your still allowed to smoke. that sort of thing could easily happen again! th tragedies of hillsborough were not th fault of terracing or rowdy fans but because of th police opening th gates and letting everybody in, ticket or no ticket. i think we could bring bak safe standing areas if we were able to get th support of other clubs aswell. particularly the OLD FIRM!!

[wyness_is_god]

caley4life,

A bradford fire shouldn't happen again, not in stadiums today. that happend because the stand at Valley Parade was a wooden stand which had holes in-between the steps from which a lit discarded cigarette dropped by a fan went through and fell onto rubbish underneath the stand that had gathered over the years and from that enlarged into the disaster it was.

It was a freak accident, even though as far as I'm aware nobody has stepped forward as responsible for it, they may even have died that day, but the days of wooden stands are coming to an end at all levels from premier league to lower levels and most certainly smoking in them is ended unless they have a concrete flooring.

The old Falkirk ground Brockville was probably the last one of these stadiums with its main stand and I for one am sure like most are glad they have moved to the new Falkirk Stadium so there is no repeat performance as Brockville was an accident waiting to happen.