carnage on the roads recently

[Guest birdog]

One thing I note thats missing in birdog arguement, and something that may have been the cause of saturday's tragedy, and thats sudden illness. Heart attack, severe stroke and one or two other conditions can come on very sudden and without warning. Indeed even the fittest and healthiest of us can suddenly drop to the ground. Where's the human factor there.

Yes true Alex, I failed to think about those circumstances they are indeed totally unavoidable.

You might want to edit the last sentence. Death and illness are very much a human traits in that we will all suffer from them at some stage but otherwise the best reply in this thread.

[alimci]

O/T EDIT- alimci what is the phonetical spelling of your username? It's been doing my head in for months trying to pronounce it in my head.

Sorry to cause angst, birdog  :004: It's actually a combo of the first letters of my forename + surname = ali + mci  :003:

[Scotty]

OK guys, I get your points, the crux of my discussion was that all accidents are, with available technology, avoidable and that there is a human element to all accidents. So, how much is a human life reasonably worth? How much time, effort and money should reasonably be spent to save life?

It wasnt a case of how much a life is reasonably worth - I dont think there can be an answer to that .... However, it may be easier or more quantifiable to debate how much one person can reasonably be expected to do to try and ensure the safety of themselves and others around them when driving.

EDIT- To expand on this point you obviously believe that I am being unreasonable in saying that the human race should spend it's valuable money on accident avoidance. We have hindsight to let us know that deer run in front of cars making it predictable, we have as I have shown, the technology to avoid such circumstances.

No, I dont think you are being unreasonable, and I think I posted something a lot further back in this thread that said safety is far more important than efficiency in terms of upgrading roads like the A9 instead of others. To go back to your deer thing .... It is not reasonable for me in my current location to fit one, but if I lived in Northern Ontario or even in Northern Scotland then it is one thing that might be regarded as reasonable as I too have been in a car (on the A9, at night) where a deer came out of nowhere and came into contact with the car.

As far as reasonable costs go, Volvo invented and patented the three point safety belt. This belt has been fitted to nearly all new cars in the world since the 1980s and therefore could have earned Volvo enough money to equip the whole of Scotland with the deer counter measures I have mentioned but they gave the idea away freely because they believe that there is no reasonable limit to the cost of road safety. I believe but could be wrong that they are responsible for airbags also.

Volvo are definitely up there as innovators in safety, thats for sure. I would not dream of starting my car without putting it on yet it wasnt that long ago that some cars didnt even have them, or the law didnt require people to wear them and way too many people still dont (think something like 3000 people were charged in the most recent week-long 'blitz' here in Toronto). I am also very happy with the ABS braking system in my car and things like side airbags will be a consideration when I buy my next car (only have front ones right now). When I replaced my tyres just before Christmas, I did some serious searching on the Internet to find out which ones were rated the best for safety and ended up with Michelin Harmonies which were not the cheapest but had the best overall rating in just about every category out of the makes available for my car. 

[Guest birdog]

O/T EDIT- alimci what is the phonetical spelling of your username? It's been doing my head in for months trying to pronounce it in my head.

Sorry to cause angst, birdog  :004: It's actually a combo of the first letters of my forename + surname = ali + mci  :003:

2nd best reply  :003:

[Guest birdog]

My last post on the subject.

Scotty and CD it is obvious we are singing from the same song sheet but it took Alex's post to let me see that you guys were right and there is a percentage of unavoidable accidents.

In case you didn't catch that the first time, I concede that you guys were indeed correct and I may have been blinkered in my views on the subject.

[Scotty]

I think we all agree on the overall principle, Its just a few of the details where we might have slightly different takes.

However, it was refreshing to have a somewhat serious debate where views and opinions could go back and forth without too much bickering ;) 

EDIT: OK, time to go jump in my car and navigate the mighty 401 !!! They call a portion of it the "Highway of Heroes" because the bodies of Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan travel along it on their way to the main coroner's office in Downtown Toronto .... but the section I drive (a different part, further west) could quite easily be named the Highway of Halfwits !

[CaleyD]

EDIT: OK, time to go jump in my car and navigate the mighty 401 !!! They call a portion of it the "Highway of Heroes" because the bodies of Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan travel along it on their way to the main coroner's office in Downtown Toronto .... but the section I drive (a different part, further west) could quite easily be named the Highway of Halfwits !

You'll have Feb 8th to contend with on your drive if your not careful!!!

Birdog, I appreciated the points you were making, and I was just trying to make the point you conceded to Alex.....Although I suspect that had I made the same point then you would have come back asking for me to provide evidence that someone had had a heart attack at the wheel on their way home from a heart check-up at the hospital  :023:

And to think, people could have been sitting a few years ago having a similar argument when someone thought they would take it to the extreme and said something like "....don't be so ridiculous, you'll be suggesting we fit cushions to the steering wheel next!!!"

And with that thought, I'm off to patent the idea for a falling tree detector.  :015:

[Guest birdog]

CD I know I said it would be my last post but, and taking this way O/T I have said before and I say it again I enjoy debating with you, I am gracious enough to accept defeat and had you come up with Alex's reply I would have afforded you the same respect as I can now remember at least four accidents with those reasons attributed as the cause. We have had our debates before which have deteriorated into chit but this one has been enjoyable all the way through.

Now I think we can have more without it turning into a slanging match and pettiness, I think we are both adult enough to admit our guilt on that front.

[alimci]

Having just survived a war on another board with people calling each other everything under the sun, I would like to say we are in general remarkably civilised here  :clapping03:

[12th Man]

I think we are all guilty of taking our own lives for granted and even hearing of death and accidents it still doesn't play an important enough part in our lives.

Only last week whilst sitting in stationary traffic on the Kingsway in Dundee, which was coned and starting to narrow off to a single lane.

I watched in my side mirror as if in slow motion, two women walking across the road who must have been so engrossed in conversation that they didn't even bother to look when crossing, 

I also noticed a motorcycle approaching.

The motorcyclist spotted the pedestrians and slowed down and attempted to manoeuvre around behind them,It wasn't until the very last second that they noticed the motorcyclist, one jumped forward and one stepped back,the latter collided with the biker and was knocked to the ground and laid motionless.

I started to think of things like the police turning up at the woman's door telling a family member that their wife or mum wouldn't be coming home as they had died that morning whilst walking to work. 

The good news is, she was OK and stayed in Ninewells overnight for observations but it could all of gone so horribly wrong that day, just like on the A9.

So instead of moaning about Brewster not taking us in to Europe, why not take time to think of the importance of life and how easily it can all go wrong and how valued your family and friends are.

[Yngwie]

I passed that very accident just when the ambulances were arriving. Glad to hear everyone survived.

[CaleyJulz]

No offence against older drivers but some should simply not be allowed on the roads.

Last week my younger sister whom is a learner driver was driving with my mum along by the airport this older person didnt stop at the t junction the he was all over the road towards Castle Stuart. Then he thought it was safe to round Castle Stuart on the middle of the road!!! And just to top it he turned in to the castle with out indicating!!!

So do you think once you reach a certain age you should have to resit your test ???

[SMEE]

Theres an argument chic, that once you reach a certain age, you should be retired from driving. You no longer have the facilties that at least enable you to drive safely. My uncle is one...he is a liability on the road!

[Yngwie]

We finally persuaded my grandad to stop driving when he turned 90, and had become a danger to everyone. It's very hard for old folk to willingly give up a part of their independence, but it has to be done.

[SMEE]

there is a minimum age where you are considered capable of handling a motor vehicle, so why not an maximum age too :024:

[CaleyJulz]

The car this driver had was a big one and looked very powerfull.

[Guest birdog]

there is a minimum age where you are considered capable of handling a motor vehicle, so why not an maximum age too :024:

Because people look after their bodies and minds in differing ways and no-one person deteriorates at the same rate.

[CaleyJulz]

Yes some older people can still drive .... But some should just not be on the road at all !!!

[absent friend]

I have not noticed in the press reports of the recent spate of accidents, with the inherent loss of lives, any mention of older drivers being involved or at fault.

I would offer the opposite thought, that younger drivers should be banned from driving a motor car that has any power, other than allowing it to achieve say, 40 mph, until they have completed their apprenticeship.  That way we will keep our accident rate lower and all be safer on the roads.

The car insurance premium rates for drivers are arrived at actuarially, using, in part, the claims experience by age and this figure does not reflect the point you are making here, as young drivers will know to their cost.

We can all point to some idiot behind a wheel, irrespective of age or gender, but you require something more substantial to support your case. 

[Scotty]

I would offer the opposite thought, that younger drivers should be banned from driving a motor car that has any power, other than allowing it to achieve say, 40 mph, until they have completed their apprenticeship.  That way we will keep our accident rate lower and all be safer on the roads.

They do something like that over here in Canada ..... its called graduated licensing and is designed to let new drivers get driving experience and skills gradually. The two-step process takes at least 20 months to complete.

You start with a G1 license .... You have to have that one for a year before sitting your G1 test (you can cut the time to 8 months if you take govt. approved Driving courses that give you a certificate). As a G1 driver you have to have a 0.0 alcohol level, have a qualified driver with you at all times, and cannot drive on any of the high speed roads like highways or expressways.

Once you pass your G1 test, you become a G2 driver and must stay at this level for another 12 months. As a G2 driver you get a few more privileges, you dont need an accompanying driver, you can drive on the highways etc but you still have to maintain a zero alcohol level, and quite importantly, between the hours of midnight and 5am, if the driver is 19 or under, they are restricted in the number of passengers they can carry (3 max) and further limited in how many of those passengers can be under 19 (1 only unless the front seat passenger is older and has a full license) .... Its designed to cut down things like "boy racing" and such like.

Having said that ..... the carnage on the roads here is still bad !!! and that is from every age range !!!

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/dri...radu/index.html

[CaleyD]

The truth is, there's 1001 things that can cause accidents and we'll never have a system where it can be eliminated.  The best we can do is take measures to reduce the risk, and in the case of the A9, the most effective thing that can be done is to dual it.  That way fast drivers are less likely to meet traffic head on and slow drivers can be avoided by using the second lane and don't create so many accidents caused by frustration.

[SMEE]

Wonder how much it would cost to dual the A9. Hundreds of millions at least?

[CaleyD]

Estimate cost is ?600 Million.

A drop in the ocean when you consider that they spent ?8 Billion upgrading the rail line between London and Glasgow to improve travel times by 15 minutes.

[Alex MacLeod]

absent friend it was an older person who was driving the pick-up that is reported to have been at fault in the latest A9 incident.

As for the cost it should be budgeted over a few years so although the total cost may seem high if broken down over an eight or ten year period it wouldn't actually be that much on the annual budgets. Do it in sections from each city. Start by linking up the two sections between Perth and Dunkeld whilst simultaneously linking between Inverness and Slochd.

Someone suggested it may become a toll road but my understanding on that is that it cannot be a toll road unless an alternative route is also provided. Short of going via Aberdeen or Fort-William there is only one route betweem Perth and Inverness and imagine the load that would be put on the A82 and A96 if tolls were charged.

[SMEE]

Estimate cost is ?600 Million.

Just like the Scottish Parliment Building was estimated to cost ?40M and we all know what happened there :017: