Bilingual Signage Causes Accidents!

[Heilandee]

Should you have the need to phone Porterfield prison,it's comforting to know there's an option to hear all options in Gaelic! i never realised so many offenders were Gaels!!

[DAM]

The reason we speak such a clear (or more accurately, non accented) English in Inverness is to do with the fact that we were, and to some extent still are, a market town which services the needs of a wide variety of dialects and it was something which was born out of necessity.

Getting back to the road signs again, which is what this topic is about. I had to take a trip to Skye today and as a result of this conversation I took special note of the road signs. Aside from the fact that I still think bilingual signs are totally unnecessary, it was interesting to note that not only do they become more prominent the further west you travel, but in many places the bilingual signs are then followed by other (official) signs about 50 yards further on which are entirely written in Gaelic, there's even places where there's official road signs entirely in Gaelic with no English reference whatsoever.

The whole situation is far more bonkers than I had realised!!!

You've seen nothing yet, I hear that plans are afoot to add Polish names once the proposed Tornagrain development is completed.

[Johnboy]

You've seen nothing yet, I hear that plans are afoot to add Polish names once the proposed Tornagrain development is completed.

Well now, that would make sense.....

There are far more Polish speakers than Gaelic speakers around this area many of whom aren't fluent English speakers.

[Charles Bannerman]

The reason we speak such a clear (or more accurately, non accented) English in Inverness

Aye, righ'ee nuffmun. Ah wuz in the Hulton Chapper the u'ur day ge'een a chucken sapper from yer brurr.

[old caley girl]

Not anti-Gaelic but still think they are a waste of money especially when the roads are falling to bits especially the A82 which I have to drive every day. Don't think they cause accidents though. Seems to work well enough in Wales when we go.

We just seem to have less pride in our heritage than Wales. It always surprises me that Wales, so close to England, can defend their identity and yet we, away up here, seem to be so keen on Anglicisation.

''Gaelic is dead, an embarrassment to all the local English residents, only the thick West Coasters use it, why can't they speak English like us''

So sad and so wrong!

In Wales they rejoice in their native tongue and indeed I have heard it used for their regional news on TV.

Just ponder on why Inverness and Dublin are the best English speaking places in Britain!!

No wonder we let our natural resources outflow from our country and give thanks for Kishorn, Cromarty and Ardersier, a bone thrown to the locals to keep them happy.

Backbone? I don't think so! Wales wins at more than rugby, I'm afraid.

.

Should have added that where we normally go in Wales about 88% of the population speak Welsh. It is like going to a foreign country with young and old speaking Welsh on the streets in everyday life. I don't remember Inverness and the likes ever having a Gaelic speaking heritage like this.

[The Mantis]

And here's another thing. Is it just me, or have the Gaelic gang become far more arrogant in recent years.

No, it's just you (that's become more arrogant, judging by some of your dismissive posts on just about anything) :thumb04:

I can assure you that the average tourist knows hee haw about Gaelic and wouldn't care less if it went down the tubes.

I'm not, er, assured. Care to provide a bit more than just prejudice? In my experience, the tourists think it's what makes the Isles what they are.

Before anybody accuses me of representing the 'Gaelic Gang' (eh?) can I say Mrs Mantis is a native speaker from Lewis and I visit the Isles every year. I did a learner's O Grade over 20 years ago and find the language and culture fascinating - but not something that should be preserved artificially. That would be pathetic. Maybe to push Gaelic in the Sneckie area is too much (but let's have some reasoned argument without the abuse).

However I do think some effort should be put into preserving it (in the heartlands) and just see whether it bottoms out and recovers, or continues to die. This would be a small price, in return for all the efforts by various governments since Culloden to eradicate the language and the culture completely, ethnic cleansing in effect.

In my experience over 30 years, all of you won't have much to worry about shortly as all the natives are dying off anyway.

Edited March 21, 2009 by The Mantis

[Heilandee]

not something that should be preserved artificially.

However I do think some effort should be put into preserving it (in the heartlands) and just see whether it bottoms out and recovers, or continues to die.

Thats the problem though Mantis,most of the attemped preservation is totally artificial and the costs incurred for little or no return is obviously starting to irk many.I'd be all for support being given in the western isles and communities where there is a genuine historical connection with Gaelic and the culture but Gaelic medium schools in Perth,Glasgow and Inverness are ludicross.As i've mentioned on here before, my old man is a native speaker ,learning English when he went to Secondary school,and reckons to have never seen one person from the medium system continue there interest and support into adult life,numbers supporting mods etc continue to dwindle and as you say a couple of generations will probably see it gone, sad but inevitable

[RichieKass]

when abroad you have to cope with bilingual signs even when driving on the 'wrong' side of the road but in the Highlands bilingual signs put the lives of innocent people at risk, in your opinion!

Your logic is difficult to understand or is the Gaelic content that upsets!

The difference is AF,european signs are bi or multilingual for a reason so tourists and foreign visitors can be informed,Gaelic signing serves no useful purpose other than to kid on the tourists their is some thriving mythical community still useing Gaelic as their only language.Other than small pockets in the western isles where it could possibly be justified the dual signing is in my and most tax payers opinion, a waste of resources.

I'm all for preserving history but not for funding the futility of resurecting a lost cause.

:thumb04: :018: ;) :015:

[kilda]

And here's another thing. Is it just me, or have the Gaelic gang become far more arrogant in recent years.

No, it's just you (that's become more arrogant, judging by some of your dismissive posts on just about anything) :thumb04:

I can assure you that the average tourist knows hee haw about Gaelic and wouldn't care less if it went down the tubes.

I'm not, er, assured. Care to provide a bit more than just prejudice? In my experience, the tourists think it's what makes the Isles what they are.

Before anybody accuses me of representing the 'Gaelic Gang' (eh?) can I say Mrs Mantis is a native speaker from Lewis and I visit the Isles every year. I did a learner's O Grade over 20 years ago and find the language and culture fascinating - but not something that should be preserved artificially. That would be pathetic. Maybe to push Gaelic in the Sneckie area is too much (but let's have some reasoned argument without the abuse).

However I do think some effort should be put into preserving it (in the heartlands) and just see whether it bottoms out and recovers, or continues to die. This would be a small price, in return for all the efforts by various governments since Culloden to eradicate the language and the culture completely, ethnic cleansing in effect.

In my experience over 30 years, all of you won't have much to worry about shortly as all the natives are dying off anyway.

Quite right Mantis, the sad but true fact off life in the Western Isles is the rejection, in large part, by the young of Gaelic. I work in that area and hear Gaelic spoken all the time. They certainly have a different culture and a possibly better way of life but I fear that it is doomed. I have to admit that I know very little of the language despite having a family heritage, my mother spoke the Gaelic as a first choice and was forced to speak the english at school, understand only a little myself.

The Gaels now have Gaelic language first schools, even in the sneck but it won't save the language, except as part of some romantic and improbable history. Perhaps we have to let times change and some things are not worth preserving at any cost.

[Johnboy]

not something that should be preserved artificially.

However I do think some effort should be put into preserving it (in the heartlands) and just see whether it bottoms out and recovers, or continues to die.

Thats the problem though Mantis,most of the attemped preservation is totally artificial and the costs incurred for little or no return is obviously starting to irk many.I'd be all for support being given in the western isles and communities where there is a genuine historical connection with Gaelic and the culture but Gaelic medium schools in Perth,Glasgow and Inverness are ludicross.As i've mentioned on here before, my old man is a native speaker ,learning English when he went to Secondary school,and reckons to have never seen one person from the medium system continue there interest and support into adult life,numbers supporting mods etc continue to dwindle and as you say a couple of generations will probably see it gone, sad but inevitable

Could not agree more Mantis and H/Dee...

It would make a lot of sense to spend more on preserving the language throughout the Western Isles than to squander it on needless creations like bi-lingual signs in areas where Gaelic was never ever spoken.

I don't accept that the language will die out altogether within a couple of generations. I know of a family who moved from Sheffield to Ness in Lewis about 4 years ago and have successfully manged to become bi-lingual in that short space of time. As long as there is a healthy interest in these parts in preserving the language there is no reason why it shouldn't survive.

[The Mantis]

Aye, Ness is quite a healthy community with a bit of pride in itself.

The Uig district where I go is a bit remote and it's about an hour's commute to Stornoway, with a lot of single track. Most of the population are aged, but there's a fair number of incomers having kids. Many of them are very interested in going native, but there are very few natives left! And sadly others come up from England and only want to turn the place into the place they've just left.

[Renegade]

And here's another thing. Is it just me, or have the Gaelic gang become far more arrogant in recent years.

No, it's just you (that's become more arrogant, judging by some of your dismissive posts on just about anything) :thumb04:

I can assure you that the average tourist knows hee haw about Gaelic and wouldn't care less if it went down the tubes.

I'm not, er, assured. Care to provide a bit more than just prejudice? In my experience, the tourists think it's what makes the Isles what they are.

But an honest poster it has to be said.

Well it's interesting to note that in some parts of Ireland where they put up bi-lingual signs, the foreigners just got confused thinking that the Gaelic interpretation was somewhere else near the English interpretation.

[Renegade]

Link

Gaelic school's in crisis apparently. My heart bleeds for them.

[Johnboy]

Link

Gaelic school's in crisis apparently. My heart bleeds for them.

They should close this fecking abhoration down now.... What a pathetic waste of tax payers money...

To add insult to injury they are now even squabbling over free transport and demanding that the council provide it.

I have no objection at all to any parents who want their children to learn the gaelic language. But why the feck do they think that we tax payers should stump up and pay for it???????

Edited March 30, 2009 by Johnboy

[CaleyD]

Listened to a very interesting programme on this subject on radio at the weekend which raised a couple of very worthy points which I don't think have been covered here yet.

1. There's no valid argument from the "education" angle to be had. Gaelic signs cannot educate as they offer no guidance to pronunciation and Gaelic is not a language given to phonetic type pronunciation. The only people who gain any benefit are those already familiar with the language.....and there's so few of those who do not speak English that the money being spent works out at tens, and maybe even hundreds of thousands of pounds per head for those who may genuinely need them.

2. Bilingual signs are not only confusing in many instances but entirely misleading. Gaelic signs are being erected at historic locations, locations which have no connection to Gaelic whatsoever. They are sending out a false impression that Gaelic is an ancient language associated with pictish sites and other sites which pre-date it. It's not only historic sites that are effected, but we have signs going up in Gaelic giving directions to places which have never had a Gaelic name....so much so that they have set up a central group who's job it is to not only agree on spellings, but to come up with Gaelic names/translations for places which have never previously had one.

It's now reached the stage whereby it's no longer about "educating" people and more about fooling them into believing that Gaelic was something it never was and used far wider than it ever has been and this is where the reality check is required.

[Renegade]

Here's another thing, since when was Gaelic the "national" heritage of Scotland? The Gaelic zealots always say "oh it's our culture, it's our heritage". A very large chunk of Scottish folk, if not the majority are not of Gaelic heritage at all. Utter selfishness from the Gaelic gang.

[Renegade]

I saw a car the other day advertising driving lessons in Gaelic. Thank goodness for that!

[TheKnowledge]

And your point is caller?

I know this is old news but I was reading over this topic for the first time and that is very poor come back. I expect much more from you renegade.

[TheKnowledge]

How much extra does it cost to put extra letters on a sign? Do Gaelic speakers not pax tax? Is heritage not more important than money?

[TopSix]

How much extra does it cost to put extra letters on a sign? Do Gaelic speakers not pax tax? Is heritage not more important than money?

Well said. If they're replacing signs through age then it can't be an extraordinary amount to make them bilingual.

Everything which can be done to save the language should be carried out. I wish I was fluent in Gaelic.

[Renegade]

And your point is caller?

I know this is old news but I was reading over this topic for the first time and that is very poor come back. I expect much more from you renegade.

I'm sorry, I'll try better next time. :)

How much extra does it cost to put extra letters on a sign? Do Gaelic speakers not pax tax? Is heritage not more important than money?

First all, who's heritage do we save? Is Gaelic Scotland's true heritage? How many Scottish people have a "Gaelic heritage"? I'm Scottish, and it ain't mine. But still, these roadsigns aren't about the money, it's about safety. Something, as can be seen earlier in the thread, that these roadsigns do not help.

[TheKnowledge]

It's part of Celtic heritage, which Scotland is a part of.

I just kept reading about money in a lot of the posts but, you are right, the op states about the safety of these road signs. All the same though, how long does it take to work out which one is the English phrase, and which one the Gaelic Phrase. I'm just saying this from memory but are they not written in different colours?

As another caller pointed out, signs are bilingual in other countries. Ireland, wales and Finland all have them. Even though the wikipedia page I looked at (can you believe there are people out there with such dedication to ex[anding others knowledge that there is an entire page dedicated to road signs?) didn't include Spain, I'm fairly certain I saw such signs in Catalunya. Caley D said he is not convinced by arguments based on precedents or likenesses but, I'm not convinced by arguments that dismiss other arguments, to further the original argument, with no explanation. I'm more convinced by comparisons to similar situations.

People are driving too fast, or thinking too slow.

[SMEE]

Meh.....Gaelic is dying on its arse...why....coz theres not enuff interest. Now....if they wanna resurect something truly scottish and worth while....i say...pump the dosh into reviving...CREAMOLA FOAM!!

[Yngwie]

It has kind of been revived by a Scottish sweet shop called something along the lines of Kremola Fizz. My missus got me some for my birthday, by mail order online. Very pricey, but has a similar bicarb effect, sickly sweetness and horrendous colouring that I recall from my childhood, and from my teenage years when it was a great mixer for vodka.

[Zoid]

This is quite funny

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7702913.stm