Should Scotland be an independent country

[Alex MacLeod]

That's a valid reason to vote Yes.

 

However, I know more face painting, claymore waving flag shaggers than I do neddy Rangers fans so am going with my option.

 

I see the Grauniad suggested that the UK governemtnw anted to keep Faslane as a UK territory, the way that the bases in Cyprus are.  I think we should ask for Diego Garcia as a swap.

Dont recall ever seeing many of them in the streets of Merkinch but then again if the UK attempt to annex Faslane maybe we'll all take up our dirks and claymores once again and kick some ass.

[ictchris]

 

That's a valid reason to vote Yes.

 

However, I know more face painting, claymore waving flag shaggers than I do neddy Rangers fans so am going with my option.

 

I see the Grauniad suggested that the UK governemtnw anted to keep Faslane as a UK territory, the way that the bases in Cyprus are.  I think we should ask for Diego Garcia as a swap.

Dont recall ever seeing many of them in the streets of Merkinch but then again if the UK attempt to annex Faslane maybe we'll all take up our dirks and claymores once again and kick some ass.

 

 

You aren't looking hard enough.

[Alex MacLeod]

Over the past while I've heard and read about a number of reasons why we should stay together. All, so far, have been shot down in flames, not by the SNP or the Scottish people, but by the very people being employed to prove the contrary. The BetterTogether campaign has shown themselves to be very stupid people who bring about very stupid arguements but hey ho what do we expect. The latest now is that they are going to spy on and analyse every one of us so they can slot us into tribes. from that they will target the weak and the vulnerable to vote no. Do they not realise that tribalism (Clanism) died a death in Scotland around 500 years ago.

 

My conclusion thus far. THE CONSERVATIVES DO NOT WANT US TO BREAK AWAY FROM ENGLAND FOR TWO REASONS. 1. WE ARE THE VERY LAST OF THE OLD EMPIRE THAT THEY CAN CONTROL. 2. THEY ARE SH!T SCARED OF BEING AN INDEPENDANT COUNTRY.

[starchief]

Rubbish. The Tories would make substantial gains as they are overwhelmingly dominant in England. They are a Unionist party through ideaology, even at the expense of dominating an English parliament for decades. you may disagree with their manifesto but you are being disingenuous to suggest it is through greed or political gain.

oh, and both Labour and the Lib Dems are also unionist, so how does a party with so little support like the Tories become the vanguard for anti independence. Make your case but less of the scare stories and bluff. It only turns off the undecideds like myself.

[Renegade]

Make your case but less of the scare stories and bluff. It only turns off the undecideds like myself.

 

Indeed.  To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually.  For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime.  And what has it become?  Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest.

 

I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way.  If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Renegade

[PullMyFinger]

All very valid and interesting viewpoints. Let's take this out of the box though and start from scratch. What do you want our newly independent country to be like?

What if anything would you like to keep?

What should we introduce?

How should we finance our institutions and welfare?

There is a very interesting conversation going on right now and it's only started, everyone is invited to contribute and it's the brainchild of those people at the Jimmy Reid Foundation. Remember him as the man who led industrial action on the shipyards like had never been seen before - a work in, in an effort to stave off redundancies and yard closure the workers carried on working without reward. It was futile in the end but showed what lengths the workforce were prepared to go, to preserve their futures.

The Common Weal invites everyone to have their say, no matter what walk of life you come from. This is our chance to create a democratically elected, socially just, independent country in Scotland.

 

This is a pdf file, only 5 pages but provides food for thought.

 

http://reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Common-Weal.pdf

 

Scottish Common Weal website

 

http://scottishcommonweal.org/

 

Scottish Common Weal library

 

http://scottishcommonweal.org/the-library/

 

Hours of fun

[PullMyFinger]

 

Make your case but less of the scare stories and bluff. It only turns off the undecideds like myself.

 

Indeed.  To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually.  For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime.  And what has it become?  Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest.

 

I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way.  If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all.

 

 

Sorry to correct you here but as a voter is it not also your responsibility to look into the options? This isn't a run of the mill election, it's a referendum which could mean years more austerity as the Forbes list get so filthy rich that they're writhing in their own excrement or the good guys win. Not that I'm biased or anything.

 

Haven't heard much from Lawrence about the post office lately.

[starchief]

...and the level of debate continues in the gutter....

[Renegade]

 

 

Make your case but less of the scare stories and bluff. It only turns off the undecideds like myself.

 

Indeed.  To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually.  For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime.  And what has it become?  Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest.

 

I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way.  If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all.

 

 

Sorry to correct you here but as a voter is it not also your responsibility to look into the options? 

 

That is what I do and unlike some people, can see arguments from both sides.  Are these two groups about convincing people to vote their way, or are they just about preaching to the converted?  If they're so poor at convincing people like myself I'll probably remain undecided until election day.

[Kirishima]

What I have recently discovered is that the Scottish embassy question is null and void. I'm in Japan and the embassy doesn't issue passports (I don't think they do much but have dinner) I just send off to Hong Kong for mine. That's the same for every other country in Asia. The national audit office 5 years ago cut swathes through the FCO, now they are but a building and a civil servant. Soon, there won't be any embassies, thanks to the progress in travel and communication.

[dougiedanger]

Surely people must know whether they want to live in an independent country or not. 

 

Waiting for others to convince you either way is no real excuse for looking inwards and asking yourself: do I want to live in a free and independent country or not?

 

It's quite simple, the rest will take care of itself.

[PullMyFinger]

...and the level of debate continues in the gutter....

 

Please explain why you think my post was gutteral.

 

 

 

 

Make your case but less of the scare stories and bluff. It only turns off the undecideds like myself.

 

Indeed.  To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually.  For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime.  And what has it become?  Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest.

 

I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way.  If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all.

 

 

Sorry to correct you here but as a voter is it not also your responsibility to look into the options? 

 

That is what I do and unlike some people, can see arguments from both sides.  Are these two groups about convincing people to vote their way, or are they just about preaching to the converted?  If they're so poor at convincing people like myself I'll probably remain undecided until election day.

 

 

The Better Together arguments tend to be along the lines of scaremonguering, whereas YesScotland offer a positive alternative. Claims made by YesScotland can sometimes only be confirmed post referendum, such as EU membership but it is increasingly looking like there will be a UK referendum on that and support for withdrawing is on the up south of the border.

 

Moving Trident is being discussed too with MoD stating it will cost £billions whereas a report they commisioned stated the cost of decommisioning would likely be less than £150 million.

 

I can see why undecided voters are in a dilemma, there will be a perion immediately before the election when the media have a responsibility to be impartial and this is when most undecided voters will decide.

[starchief]

Surely people must know whether they want to live in an independent country or not. 

 

Waiting for others to convince you either way is no real excuse for looking inwards and asking yourself: do I want to live in a free and independent country or not?

 

It's quite simple, the rest will take care of itself.

You already live in a pretty free country.  Struggling to see what more freedom there will be.

 

Is a Scotland in closer ties with the EU than the UK is willing and with the Bank of England as the keeper of it's monetary union really independant?  If England changes the interest rates, Scotland will have to jump but with less consideration paid to it's needs.  And with such a large competitor next door, will Scotland become a much less desirable place to do business?  It's not about blind bravehearts but about fiscal sense. It's not so simple, so I'm undecided.

 

For me, it's mostly about a more representative government.  That's why I'm much more in favour of devo-max and even more increased federalism.  Power at the most local level.  Below that of London or Holyrood.  So, neither option especially appeals. The case isn't simple for me, so I'm still undecided.

[PullMyFinger]

 

Surely people must know whether they want to live in an independent country or not. 

 

Waiting for others to convince you either way is no real excuse for looking inwards and asking yourself: do I want to live in a free and independent country or not?

 

It's quite simple, the rest will take care of itself.

You already live in a pretty free country.  Struggling to see what more freedom there will be.

 

Is a Scotland in closer ties with the EU than the UK is willing and with the Bank of England as the keeper of it's monetary union really independant?  If England changes the interest rates, Scotland will have to jump but with less consideration paid to it's needs.  And with such a large competitor next door, will Scotland become a much less desirable place to do business?  It's not about blind bravehearts but about fiscal sense. It's not so simple, so I'm undecided.

 

For me, it's mostly about a more representative government.  That's why I'm much more in favour of devo-max and even more increased federalism.  Power at the most local level.  Below that of London or Holyrood.  So, neither option especially appeals. The case isn't simple for me, so I'm still undecided.

 

 

Yep, totally agree with most of that  especially the freedom bit.

 

Re Scotlands EU membership being closer to the EU than the UK is at the moment, where do you get that from? Do you realise that our fisheries were sold down the river by the UK govt. to maintain "our" rebate? The UK negotiates on our behalf but we haven't seen any benefits for an awful long time. The rebate the UK gets goes to Westminster and does not make it's way here in Barnett consequentials. Westminster managed to find £billions for the Olympics though. What did Scotland get? One football match.

 

A monetary union is in the UKs best interests and initially is what the current Scottish Government propose to do. They are not going to raise interest rates any time soon and I can say that with an unbeleivable amount of confidence. How? Look how much the national debt is and what effect interest rates would have on repayments. They aren't going to bankrupt themselves to spite us. Even if rates increased, savers here would benefit.

 

Devo is not on the ballot paper even though it was the most popular option according to countless opinion polls. This was a condition imposed by Westminster in order to approve the referendum deal. Now ask yourself why they didn't want it; they want to govern us not serve us!

[starchief]

Re Scotlands EU membership being closer to the EU than the UK is at the moment, where do you get that from?

 

The current UK direction is more Euroscepticism with even possible withdrawal. All the likely Scottish government parties are Europhiles.  Don't get me wrong, I was much more in favour of Euro-integration than most in the past, but it's become way too centralised, anti-federalist and undemocratic for me.

 

Westminster managed to find £billions for the Olympics though. What did Scotland get? One football match.

 

The argument there is that the Olympics brought in billions for the whole of the UK.  I doubt it but I'm not qualified to dispute any figures.

 

A monetary union is in the UKs best interests and initially is what the current Scottish Government propose to do. They are not going to raise interest rates any time soon and I can say that with an unbeleivable amount of confidence. How? Look how much the national debt is and what effect interest rates would have on repayments. They aren't going to bankrupt themselves to spite us. Even if rates increased, savers here would benefit.

 

It's not about rates or likliehoods but about control over a nation's finances.  A Tory government for England and Wales can dictate and legislate.  Scotland can only shout.

 

Devo is not on the ballot paper even though it was the most popular option according to countless opinion polls. This was a condition imposed by Westminster in order to approve the referendum deal. Now ask yourself why they didn't want it; they want to govern us not serve us!

 

All through the Labour years, England voted Tory but was ruled by the other countries, including the Scots-born Blair and Brown, with opposition leaders being the Scottish Ducan-Smith and Kennedy. Look at how many Scots represent English constituencies or the Trade Unions.  Seems it's more us that wants to rule them.

 

Still undecided.

 

[Alex MacLeod]

UK treasury subsidise Olympic games to the tune of some £11 billion. UK treasury subsidise Commonwealth games to tune of £0. Thats how much they think of us.

[starchief]

More scare stories and bluff.  Most of the funding will come from the Scottish Government.  And where do you think they get their money from?  Here's a clue, it's the same pot as the Olympics Committee got their funding from.

[Renegade]

Surely people must know whether they want to live in an independent country or not. 

 

Not necessarily.

 

Waiting for others to convince you either way is no real excuse for looking inwards and asking yourself: do I want to live in a free and independent country or not?

 

So if you were to cut me open, you'd find not just blood, bone and organs, but also all the answers to our economic and social concerns?! 

 

It's quite simple, the rest will take care of itself.

 

No it isn't and no it won't.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Renegade

[dougiedanger]

 

Surely people must know whether they want to live in an independent country or not. 

 

Waiting for others to convince you either way is no real excuse for looking inwards and asking yourself: do I want to live in a free and independent country or not?

 

It's quite simple, the rest will take care of itself.

You already live in a pretty free country.  Struggling to see what more freedom there will be.

 

Is a Scotland in closer ties with the EU than the UK is willing and with the Bank of England as the keeper of it's monetary union really independant?  If England changes the interest rates, Scotland will have to jump but with less consideration paid to it's needs.  And with such a large competitor next door, will Scotland become a much less desirable place to do business?  It's not about blind bravehearts but about fiscal sense. It's not so simple, so I'm undecided.

 

For me, it's mostly about a more representative government.  That's why I'm much more in favour of devo-max and even more increased federalism.  Power at the most local level.  Below that of London or Holyrood.  So, neither option especially appeals. The case isn't simple for me, so I'm still undecided.

 

 

Freedom from living under a government that the country did not vote for, that is run by and for an elite that grows richer and more powerful by the day. Freedom from sending our children to wars that mean nothing to us, from spending billions on those wars and the weaponry they require; freedom to decide what your own economic and social priorities are; and the freedom to take responsibility for those decisions.

 

Those kinds of freedoms.

[Alex MacLeod]

More scare stories and bluff.  Most of the funding will come from the Scottish Government.  And where do you think they get their money from?  Here's a clue, it's the same pot as the Olympics Committee got their funding from.

The Scottish Governments 80% share will come from within our budget. It will come from the the rebate we get from subsidising England and will not amount to anywhere near the 11 billion that the treasury managed to find, from outside the budget for England, to pay for the olympics. The overspend for the Olympics was helped by large funding from lottery whereas the Commonwealth games will not be asking for any lottery money. The lottery fund have, however, pledged £9.3 million to help sports clubs, and to promote sport for all, across the country in the run up to and beyond the games.

[Alex MacLeod]

There are many who have already decided which way they lean. There are many undecideds who will be swayed by debate. There are many who dont care one way or the other and will likely not even vote. (Perhaps we should follow the Australian rules on voting but thats another subject) At the end of the day a decision will be made and it will be made by the starchiefs of the country. Those people who are undecided at the moment and debating all aspects of the subject. These are the ones who will turn the table.

 

I am a nationalist and I believe our country can survive and prosper as an independant nation. I dont, however, go into this with blinkers on. I look at the real world, not the one the politician sees. I see the re-generation of Dundee. I see the abolishment of tolls. I see the building of new bridges. The regeneration of Glasgow through the Commonwealth games. I look forward to the dualling of the A9 and A96. I enjoy the benefits af free eye tests and prescriptions. I take heart in the fact that unemployment in Scotland is below that of England. I take pride in our health service north of the border. Having three children go through university I have benefited from free education. All that is an example of the things that have affected me. Things that come about within the budget of a devolved Scottish Government. How much more could we benefit from having total control of our own destiny.

 

What amazes me in this whole debate is some of the reasons I've heard for and against. For: I'm SNP. I hate the English. My dads SNP etc. Against I hate the SNP. I hate Alex Salmond. I'm a Royalist. I'm a Protestant Unionist etc. People, if any of those are your true reasons for voting one way or the other then you deserve what you may not like.

 

Finally, for those yet to be educated, this country of ours has existed for thousands of years but has been under English rule for only 306. Prior to 1707 England, Norway and even the Romans tried and failed to impose their rule on Scotland. We will be free once again.

[Yngwie]

Finally, for those yet to be educated, this country of ours has existed for thousands of years but has been under English rule for only 306.

 

English rule? Really?

 

The English players in the ICT squad have for most of their lives been under the rule of prime ministers and chancellors who were Scottish born and educated. 

 

And the reason the UK economy is so ****** today is due not just to those particular Scots but to the Scottish banks based in Scotland and run by Scottish people and egged on so enthusiastically by the Scottish First Minister as each catastrophic decision was made.

 

I don't think we are really in a position to blame others for our woes. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[dougal]

As long as Alex Salmond is at the helm of the SNP Scotland will remain very much part of the union

There will be no independence in my lifetime but that's not to say it will never happen

If the vote was taken tomorrow I reckon 75% No to 25% Yes

Too much braveheart watchers on this thread, Scotland is not ready for independence at this time and nor will it be in 2014

Independence at present would result in a mass exodus of some of the main businesses based in Scotland across the border or further afield i.e abroad

Dougal

[Alex MacLeod]

Totally disagree with you there Dougal but thats your opinion.

 

Yngwie.........Apologies....substitute English for London

[+DoofersDad]

I can understand folk voting yes because they want to be independent and not be "shackled" under London rule, but I am less convinced by those who still wish to remain in the EU.  I mean, do you want to be independent or not?

 

Yesterday I spent some considerable time at work on an issue where legislation has had to be changed to comply with EU law.  This is EU law made by people who simply do not understand the way this particular activity is carried out in the UK.  The result is that the revised legislation forces us into changing something that up to now has worked very well.  Were we living now in an independent Scotland, I would have had exactly the same problem.

 

The ethos of the EU is to increasingly move toward a more united and integrated European state on the basis that common laws and freer movement across boundaries will lead to greater overall prosperity and peaceful co-existence.  It is a noble aim and if you buy into that you have to take the rough with the smooth.  Broadly speaking, I share the European vision but get frustrated by some of the nonsense that comes out of Brussels or wherever.  I struggle to see the logic of wanting to break free of a British union in which Scots enjoy very considerable influence and are gaining an increasing number of devolved powers, whilst at the same time wishing to remain within a European union which is getting increasingly controlling and which just 5 million Scots will have next to no influence over.

 

If folk are truly wanting an independent nation then they should be campaigning for an independent nation out-with the EU.  That would be a more credible position and a clearer and more convincing case could be made.  "Independence" within the EU strikes the public as anti British and slightly ironic given that an "independent" Scotland within the EU would still be in a union with the rest of Britain.