Straight red cards

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Am I imagining it but have there been more controversial 'straight reds' than usual this season, in both Scotland and England?

We all remember Chris Hogg's diabolical one a few weeks ago v Celtic. And yesterday, yet another debatable one for Gillet. I couldn't really tell from the highlights (should I say lowlights?) just how much contact he got on Barrowboy, but he seemed to win the ball. A red card? Surely not.

Bolton had a shocker a few weeks ago too (successfully appealed I think), and just yesterday Kompany for City v United was surely not worth a red, and almost certainly put City out of the FA cup.

Trouble is of course that even when successfully appealed it doesn't alter the fact that a game has been spoiled as an even contest for the paying public. And the potential loss of points for the innocent side could have, who knows, what consequences at the end of the season.

I really don't know what the answer is, other than full, instant replays of every on field incident, with all the attendant problems this would bring. But surely referees at least should be held more to account when it has been proved that their over zealous decisions have been blatantly wrong.

[tm4tj]

Oh I don't know, the game was more even with us reduced to 10 men. Dunfermline were utter gash.

Referees have a difficult job and get criticised from one side or the other, but in general they are not up to standard. I suppose because of the nature of the beast every game is different and getting the balance right is not so easy. The third eye scrutiny of every decision nowadays makes it easier for us and harder for them. Gone are the days when all you had was Jack Harkness' report on the back pages of the Sunday Post to go by.

[CaleyD]

What does "getting the balance" right have to do with refereeing? Surely their job is to apply the rules in a fair and consistent manner and has nothing to do with creating balance???

It is something, without doubt, that referees do...seek balance. We've all seen it, he makes a dubious call for a corner or a foul and then the moment the ball is kicked he blows for the slightest bit of contact between two players in the area just so he can give the ball back to them. It must be one of the very few places where two wrongs are considered to make a right and only serves to highlight that Refs are incapable of admitting when they make a wrong call in the first place and reversing the decision...instead of allowing play to continue and then trying to undo one error with another. Totally bizarre.

On the subject of wrongfully issued red cards....Without bringing in technology (which I am against, but accept it may be inevitable and a necessary evil) then the only practical and workable solution I can think of is that the Referee is not allowed to make a straight red card decision on his own and must have the agreement of one other official (one of the assistants or fourth official) before issuing the card. If nothing else, this would force him to stop and take a moment to think about it before brandishing the card.

As an aside, and on the subject of assistant refs. They need to start earning their keep as well. More and more over the last few years there seems to be this trend for them to wait to see what the ref does before giving their opinion/decision on something...or more accurately, mimic the refs decision.

[RiG]

The red card for Kompany was fully justified. I don't know why it has generated so much debate.

[Scotty]

Refs have a hard job to do .... a very hard job. They have to make a split second decision based on their viewpoint of an incident which can often be obscured due to the action going on around them .....

With the ever increasing sophistication of technology allowing armchair fans an instant replay from 20 quazillion angles within a fraction of a second of the incident, it is made even harder. Over and above that, the fans themselves will often get a better view of the incidents from the stands given that they are elevated above the level of the pitch .... and of course home and away fans versions of any incident will vary greatly too so someone is going to moan no matter what .....

However, that does not remove the fact that someof our refs are, to put it bluntly, .... s*** !!!! and no amount of technology or assistance is going to change that. We do have some decent ones, but the overall perspective of refereeing in the SPL (and any other league) is dictated by just how bad the worst refs are ....

I am on the fence about technology. I think there is probably some that could enhance the game with little impact/delay on the game itself, and some that would definitely detract from it ... the main question for me is whether or not any technologies implemented would detract from the game more so than decisions such as an erroneous sending off or a goal award that was dodgy against my team would ???

The easy options .....

• Goal-line or side-line technology that detects when the ball goes out. Not much overhead there and a simple tone sent to an earpiece would indicate the ball crossing the line for a goal or when the full ball has gone out of play.

• Headsets and earphones so the refs and other officials are in constant contact and can actually assist each other with in-game decisions.

• More involvement from the 4th official, perhaps putting him in an elevated area of the stadium to give a birds eye viewpoint of any incidents such as offsides, bad tackles etc. His current role (watching club benches and organising substitutions) taken over by one of the standside officials.

• Additional Officials - We often see comments about the linesman (sorry Asst Ref) being miles away from the action so instead of one linesman per side, maybe 2 per side .. and unlike now, fully involved. I think these would be more important to have than the officials behind the goals that are being touted for testing at future UEFA/FIFA competitions, especially if goal-line technology was also used.

• If you have 5 officials as noted above, then for a straight red, 2 of them must concur on the decision as suggested by CaleyD. A red card can have such an effect on a game, and we have seen a rash of dodgy ones recently, so it would take a bit of pressure off the referee, and spread it around to all the officials.

Harder options .....

The harder options all make it more like NFL (American) Football ... instant replay, timeouts, challenges to a decision etc and I dont think any are workable in the SPL. The technology is not there at every club to support the method of these things, and unless it can be done at every ground it is not fair .....

as an aside ..... its not just the SPL !!! MLS has a few good refs, and a plethora of absolutely shocking referees, including several full-time ones ! They do use headsets to stay in touch during the game, but its the same as the SPL ... 1 ref, 2 linesmen, and one 4th official and as with the SPL, the ref is the one with ultimate control, and the one who struts around owning the place. The fans moan long and loud about this as much as fans of SPL teams !

The worst part for me ... and I know this is not the ref's fault, as its dictated by the rules, but pretty much every TFC game is broadcast on TV, and the footage of the game, including replays is shown live on a large screen above one of the stands in the ground ... After a controversial incident or bad tackle etc, we (the fans) see it instantly on the screen (within 2-3 seconds), and the referee has to purposely turn away from the screen and not form an opinion based on the action on screen .... there have been some fair old howlers of decisions that could have been corrected if he had been allowed to look and take the appropriate action 5 seconds later than he actually did !

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

A lot of the trouble for refs seems to stem from players trying to con them into making decisions by blatantly cheating , maybe if managers clamped down on their players for diving, feigning injury etc then the refs job would be a lot easier .

[CaleyD]

They don't have to make a split second decision though. There's nothing to say they can't take a moment to let it run through the head and/or ask for input from their assistants....that's why they are mic'd up.

[Sorted]

The red card for Kompany was fully justified. I don't know why it has generated so much debate.

This is why we all love football.

I disgree entirely with RIG and believe it was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen by a referee. What makes it worse (had Citaay on my coupon!) is that Foy couldn't see clearly. He's probably moved above Howard Webb on the list of Fergie's favourites and that's saying something.

Give me technology any day!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sorted

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Totally deserved red card for Kompany IMHO , 2 footed tackles must be red carded .

[Scarlet Pimple]

Technology in . Bad decisions controlled.

In the National (ice) Hockey League in North America an official is always willing to explain a controversial decision to the captain of the team against whom the call is made. There are two rexperienced referees on the ice, maybe more. I don't watch the refs, just the puck.Each of these referees has the ability to call and stop the play with their whistle which makes sense because one may be at one end of the rink and the other may be at the opposite end.

Cameras are everywhere and the officials are never loathe to consult "upstairs", where the suited officials are sitting at their T.V's watching the videos, for a ruling on any play. And the suits have the final decision.

There are also at least two cameras at the goal nets--one directly above them looking down at the goal-lines and one inside the net looking outward. Cameras also seem to have huge fields of view which is very helpful so that other action around the nets can be seen and assessed as to whether a foul has been committed against,say, the goalie; which of course could alter the decision as to whether a goal has been scored. Some goalies are beaten but seem to smother the puck under their arm or body at the last minute so no one actually see it going over the line but he frequently slides back himself over the line and lies there pretending he has brilliantly saved a goal....that can be a trucky one if he can slide forward gain really quickly .Smile.

The fans do not resent or argue about these decisions based on technology and it is a great way to take the personal biases of refs, or anyone else, out of the picture.

Instant replays on huge screens ensure that all the fans have a good view of the action and the refs get a lot of respect, except when a huge fighting melee breaks out on the ice, like what happend in Boston last Saturday when the Vancouver Canucks re-visited the team that beat them in the final game of the Staney Cup last year in a league game. It was expected but the refs were helpless and ignored by all the combatants. LOL .

Vancouver were the winners on this occasion 4-3, just as the riot trials have started back home in Vancouver.

So I am sold on technology and it seems extremely ridiculous in this day and age that Scottish football is not in the forefront of these deveopments.

[tm4tj]

Don, it's not like you to misinterpret something. When I said "the balance right" It was a poor choice of phrase. My line of thinking was more to do with the fact that every game, every decision, every circumstance is different and the balance was more to do with what goes and what does not go. I know, a fouls a foul and all that, but they come in all shapes and sizes and from every conceivable angle and the ref has to blow that whistle when the foul is committed. He could then take longer to mull over the seriousness of the crime, but he still only has one view and one second to make the initial judgement. His balance is not to even out crimes, but his inner balance to police the rules of the game fairly.

Unfortunately as I said earlier they just appear to be inept.

Technology for crucial errors of judgement would be a good thing, but where do you draw the line? Goal line camera's are a must for all major games surely?

[CaleyD]

I never "misinterpret", I just see the world differently :colour:

[Sorted]

See that the appeal panel in England agreed with RIG and not me........

Standard has now been clearly set and await the plethora of red cards to follow or a procession of bleats about inconsistency.

[RiG]

I am on the appeal panel

For what it's worth I thought it was a red card as you could argue the challenge can be counted as serious foul play based on the description given in the laws of the game. For me it would be classed under any of the categories which cover serious foul play. These are "using excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play", "endangering the safety of the opponent" or "lunging at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent".

If a challenge comes under either of the above then it is a red card. The fact that nani jumped out the way, the ball was played or no injury was received do not mitigate the challenge.

[bauhaus]

Personally I am all for technology. Should be used at all international matches, and top league football throughout the world, but only where the national association can afford to implement this. ie at Caley and not County if it was this season. It is said that technology will take away the debate of wrong calls, but sorry, I would rather the correct calls were made - ie France v Ireland, Englands goal v Germany, O'Hanlons tackle v Foran, Rangers recent "goal" v Celtic etc etc etc.

These situations are all in the professional game, with full time players, managers and supporters effected by the outcome. Why should these professionals not be allowed to use a professional system to make the big calls, as referees and assistant referees cannot see all that goes on in a fraction of a second and get it right every time. The game is so much faster now and more skillfull, as are the cheats, compared to when the rules were written. I think the rewards for the game itself are greater than any down, and the disruption of the game can take less time than the free kicks themselves

[bauhaus]

Wonder how Platini would feel if it was Keane who handled the ball into the net, rather than Henry, and his country then missed out on the world cup finals. And if he says it wouldnt change his opinion then that would not be as his feeling were sweetened by the decision, I bet if it was France who lost out he wouldnt be praising the ref and feeling good about it. :******:

[AJS]

The red card for Kompany was fully justified. I don't know why it has generated so much debate.

I agree but im sure Man City fans will have plenty to say about Glen Johnson's challenge against Lescott tonight.

[RiG]

Definitely. I haven't seen it yet but I have heard it was pretty bad and was deserving of a red as well.

[AJS]

Definitely. I haven't seen it yet but I have heard it was pretty bad and was deserving of a red as well.

It really was, he was higher off the ground than Kompany was, he also won the ball but it was a clear two foot challenge and the referee didnt even deem it a foul.