Dear Mr Cameron,

[alternative maryhill]

Just emailed the Supporters' Trust, as per CaleyD's advice. I really hope Kenny Cameron is going to listen carefully to the views of the supporters; it will be utterly mortifying if ICT vote in favour of admitting some newco Rangers.

[cal234ey]

http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/saints-without-rangers-a-question-of/

Stole this from P&B but feel it is worth a read. This is done by a St Johnstone fan estimating how much they would lose without Rangers in the league and I think it makes a lot of sense. Applying the same calculations shown in this link I ended up with a loss of £383,075 for ICT compared to last year if we lost our two Rangers home games and 33% of the SKY deal.

Note this does not account for raised policing costs or food sales etc at said Rangers games. Only tickets are accounted for. Nor does it include any money raised from increased attendances when we play County at home.

[KingBeastie]

No. No. No.

That is all.

[CaleyD]

As much as I agree with much of what has been said on here and share many of the same feelings on the subject, I find myself coming back to the question I asked before.

Are fans willing to step up to the plate and plug the (potential) financial shortfall that comes with the loss of the "Rangers" related income (notably the League Sponsorship and TV Money).

The hows and whys of how we got here are, when push comes to shove, irrelevant. We can continue wasting our time arguing about how Chairman should or should not vote (a vote that's not even on the table yet and may never get there)....or we can start thinking and preparing for worst case scenario. Whether we like it or not the worst case scenario, financially, is no Rangers related club in the SPL.

If we, the fans, get what we want in that regard.....then what next? Where does the money come from to put a team on the park? Where does the money come from to honour existing contracts? Who pays the bills, who pays the wages of the off-field staff?

Just to be clear, I am not making an argument for accepting a Rangers NewCo into the SPL here. What I am asking is that will fans be as passionate about fighting for the survival of the club if such a move doesn't transpire as they have been about giving their opinions on what should happen?

If not, then the game's a bust regardless of what happens and we may as well all pack up now, wind up ICT and save ourselves the grief of even trying to make it work.

[+Tree]

Just to be clear, I am not making an argument for accepting a Rangers NewCo into the SPL here. What I am asking is that will fans be as passionate about fighting for the survival of the club if such a move doesn't transpire as they have been about giving their opinions on what should happen?

I think the answer was a pretty clear 'No' when this question was articulated on your recent thread.

I will start by stating that, on balance, I am of the opinion that Rangers should probably not be re-admitted directly. This said, I am also very clear as to the immediate and future impacts of this situation.

I find it very hard to take a positive view on many of the comments posted which appear to almost take delight out of the situation. The number of supporters who seem to be pleased to boast as to how they are going to punish the Club (though non-renewal of season tickets, etc) as their mechanism to make comment on the actions of others does nothing to ameliorate the sense that there is a complete lack of realisation as to the likely impact of the situation.

As things stand, recruitment of players will already be impacted as many players will be unwilling to sign for the club not knowing whether there will be fixtures against Rangers nor indeed knowing the likely impact of budget reductions due to reduced income.

As a club, we are already losing amounts on an annual basis and the positive benefit of potentially two sell out fixtures against Ross County has the potential to be offset by events, and to be clear for those already asking why we didn't offer Tokely 'the earth' to stay, the sums in question have the potential to equate to the equivalent to five or six first team players to be cut from the playing budget.

To go back to your original point, how many people will be willing to have an increase of say 25% on the cost of entry to a game to avoid the potential for financial spreading to ICT? The answer would appear to be very few (though I suppose we could always take the Ed Balls approach of trying to increase our expenditure as a means of reducing a budget deficit)!

[old caley girl]

The problem is that whatever happens the club will probably take a financial hit. If ICT vote Rangers back in then there is no doubt that some will not renew season tickets, sponsorship etc. Indeed if you read the player sponsorship topic it is unlikely that we could offer sponsorship to the same level as previous years if newco stays. The loss of goodwill between fans and club may well never be repaired.

On the other hand if we dont vote them back in then the financial hit could be even greater ie loss of hospitality, away end gate, possible some telly revenue etc. As we all dont have access to what the full financial implications are then it is difficult to work out the amounts that would be lost.

However this is our club and hopefully is in existance for the fans without whom well there is probably not any point in having a club. It seems that to a man (and woman) that the feeling is that we should vote NO and the club have to take that on board. Otherwise they will have full away ends when the OF and County come to town and empty home stands at the other games so the club will suffer financially anyway.

Personally I hope the club step up to the mark and do the right thing and that as Don says we have to all to go that extra mile to help them when times get tougher. We also have to realise that things may never be the same again either way!

[CaleyD]

If you are right, Tree, then as I said....we're screwed either way.

The Status Quo isn't manageable - as stated above we are already operating with a £250,000 average shortfall year on year. If Rangers were allowed to submit a new team and the threatened "walk out" occurs then that position will be made worse and could push us over the edge....even allowing for the additional income from C*unty.

The other side of the coin is as outlined above.

Not sure I want to accept the reality of a situation which says that ICT fans would be willing to sit back and watch the club die....never before have I hoped so much that I am wrong.

[Oddquine]

How would we go about donating to help the club out financially, though? I can't currently attend games......but I could afford the cost of at least one home game a month regularly......but how to do it?

[Alex MacLeod]

The first point I'd make here is this: I do not see myself punishing the club I support by not supporting them if Rangers Newco stay in the SPL. I will not only be walking away from the club I will be walking away from football in Scotland simply because my conscience will not allow me to have any part in supporting a crooked regime. To do otherwise would, in my mind, be aiding and abetting the cheats and taxdodgers of the game.

Everyone is talking about loss of revenue and clubs will struggle in a league without Rangers. Wheres the facts and figures. Its all supposition. Sky have never said they'll pull out, nor have they said they'd invoke any clause in contract. Why should they. With over a million customers in Scotland Sky make a lot of money here. They pull out of football and many, many customers will pull the plug on them. No Scottish football on the box and I wont be paying for their package.

Loss of gate reciepts? Next season we will likely have one home game against Rangers so we could lose some 3500 ticket sales. A potential maximum loss of 88,000 except it wont be because many of those tickets will be children and concessions. Next season we have two local derbies to look forward to. Ticket sales for them will more than offset the loss from a Rangers visit.

A level playing field for everyone with league monies being distributed in a much fairer way would offset the losses to clubs like us. A more realistic chance of finishing a season on top of the league would offset the losses. But how much the loss if people with the same principals as myself decide to forsake football. For every 100 that stay away thats a potential loss of income of £22,000 or more. Having watched and read as things unfold I believe many more than that will stay away if Newco are permitted into the SPL

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

How would we go about donating to help the club out financially, though? I can't currently attend games......but I could afford the cost of at least one home game a month regularly......but how to do it?

Please send to PO Box 121, Chorley PR7 4RT

[Sir C the 3rd]

If Rangers are out of the SPL, that means they have no voting rights in the SPL. SO if sky do want to renegotiate the deal and say offer half of the £80m, then Celtic have no leverage without there horrible twin. Therefore then money could theoretically be split completely equally making every club bar Celtic much much better off!

At the moment of the £80m TV deals bring in, the old firm get 85% of that, which is £68m over 4 years between the 2 clubs. Meaning the other 10 clubs get £12m over 4 years between them, which is £300,000 per season. Absolutley outrageous..... £40 million split evenly over 12 clubs over 4 years equates to just over £800,000 per club per season. Now obviously this is just theoretical, but its possible the clubs could be much better off by getting Rangers out of the league and voting fairly and not completely in the interest of the Old Firm.

By having that financial fairness it would make a much more competitive league and more importantly a league with improved quality. When that happens the TV money goes up and we could seriously entertain the idea of a good quality 16 team league. Crowds would be improved, lots of derbies, the national team should improve. Its win win for me but the clubs have to have the foresight and most importantly the balls to say NO, Enoughs enough, and get Rangers out.

The funny thing is that when Rangers eventually get back to the SPL all those changes would benefit them, they'll still have huge crowds bringing in more money but at the same time actually getting pushed by teams week in week out which will in turn help them progress in Europe, rather than the mindless procession to the title each season along with Celtic.

This has to happen for the sake of the game in this country.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Sir C the 3rd

[bishbashbosh]

rangers or what ever the newco name will be should not be allowed to stay in the spl....... do the right thing.

let them enter the sfl at the lowest entry point, if there is a spot available assuming that other teams are not on a waiting list for entry .

let scottish football find its true level, if that is part time footie so be it.

[old caley girl]

Could someone explain to me why Rangers are still able to vote re the SPL newco vote?

[CaleyD]

Could someone explain to me why Rangers are still able to vote re the SPL newco vote?

It's actually the liquidators who will have the vote as they (will) control the company.

Rangers (the OldCo) still own the share and that share entitles them to vote.

As I understand it though, there's a whole lot that needs to happen before a vote can be taken and it's feasible that by then the SPL will have found a legally sound way in which to take back that share.

Before a vote can take place.....

A NewCo needs to be formed.

It needs to have joined the SFA.

It needs a compliant stadium.

It needs a team.

Directors need to be declared "fit and proper persons to run a club".

And before any of the above can happen.....they need money!!!! It's one thing to offer up a few million to buy the assets, quite another to get the money together to put everything else in place...and to put it all in place in a VERY short timescale.

[Proctor]

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing to express my opinions on a Rangers Newco. I am of the opinion that a new version of Rangers should under no cir***stances be voted into the SPL. From an ICT perspective I feel they should not vote for a newco for the following reasons.

Football is still fundamentally a sport. While there has often been a clash between commercialism and football; this is the reason the SPL scores are reported in the sports section of the news and not at the same time as the FTSE 100. To let someone (in this case a football club) off for cutting corners in order to achieve commercial gain eliminates any notion of ICT being a sports team and Scottish football being a contest. Dwaine chambers was a big name in his sport but was still banned from competing for breaking the rules.

Surely allowing Rangers newco into the SPL would have an adverse effect on the reputation of Scottish Football abroad? This would make Scottish Football look low-rent which for a league with a number of International TV Deals could have a negative impact on the reputation of ICT and other clubs overseas as a result.

Inverness Caledonian Thistle had to jump through a number of hoops to get into the SFL and even more to get into the SPL by sacrificing two clubs with passionate independent support and going to great expense to meet stadium criteria. Many figures at the club have worked hard over the years (the late Jock McDonald for example). Our neighbours Ross County are upgrading their stadium as we speak to play in the SPL. Why should a newco automatically enjoy the privileges of SPL membership others have had to go to great expense to achieve?

Inverness Caledonian Thistle have always tried to live within their means and remain debt free. It could be argued that trying to do things the right way has meant the club has struggled to compete with teams who spend more and are in debt as a result. ICT voting Rangers newco back into the SPL would mean the club are being hypocritical and devaluing their own good ethics. Why should the club go through the annual frustration of not being able to hold on to their top players when other teams that have effectively cheated can keep theirs and achieve higher league positions and cup runs?

The television deal with SKY is often used as an excuse to ensure Rangers stay in the SPL. In my opinion Scottish Football should not rely on television money as TV is a fickle industry. It’s possible that if TV ratings for the SPL or football in general decreased SKY could pull the plug regardless of the presence of the Old Firm? British Professional Wrestling has never fully recovered from being pulled from ITV by Greg Dyke in the late 1980’s; this was a TV sport that famously got higher ratings than the FA Cup Final. Football clubs should ensure that they can survive without this money in the long term as one day it may not be there.

I would also like to point out there has been no guarantee that SKY would pull the plug completely on the SPL TV Deal should Rangers not be in the league. I also feel that Scottish football would still appear on TV without the Old Firm. After all SKY show leagues with less appeal than ours such as the Australian Hyundai A-League and other fringe sports like Elite League Ice Hockey.

Having spoken to a good friend of mine who is a Celtic Season ticket holder and a member of a Celtic supporter’s club. He has informed me that supporters clubs of many SPL teams are planning boycotts of the grounds of clubs who vote for newco. I am unsure on how accurate or widespread this is but I feel the club may suffer in terms of attendances if this were to happen.

Both halves of the Old Firm have expressed interest to leave the SPL which shows a disregard for the wellbeing of other clubs in Scotland. Why should these clubs be sympathetic to them? A few years from now when Rangers are in a better position there is nothing stopping these clubs from saying the same thing again. The SPL clubs (ICT included) should try and ensure they can survive without the Old Firm regardless of how difficult this is. I would rather see ICT playing in a lower league and living within their means than see them being subsidy junkies in the SPL.

Finally, making a newco Rangers begin life in the Third Division may be a once in a lifetime chance to show how difficult it is for a team to survive out with the alleged land of milk and honey that is the SPL and to ensure that things change for the better down the pyramid. For a club like ICT who have had recent stint out with the SPL and may very well find themselves in that situation again, I feel this is vital.

I appreciate the opportunity to express my opinion on the matter.

Yours sincerely

James Proctor

[Proctor]

I shall point out that I sent that to the admin@ictst.co.uk address, not Kenny Cameron. I do plan on contacting him too with those reasons. I also think its rather amusing part of my post was censored.

[ICTRoughi]

Could someone explain to me why Rangers are still able to vote re the SPL newco vote?

It's actually the liquidators who will have the vote as they (will) control the company.

Rangers (the OldCo) still own the share and that share entitles them to vote.

As I understand it though, there's a whole lot that needs to happen before a vote can be taken and it's feasible that by then the SPL will have found a legally sound way in which to take back that share.

Before a vote can take place.....

A NewCo needs to be formed.

It needs to have joined the SFA.

It needs a compliant stadium.

It needs a team.

Directors need to be declared "fit and proper persons to run a club".

And before any of the above can happen.....they need money!!!! It's one thing to offer up a few million to buy the assets, quite another to get the money together to put everything else in place...and to put it all in place in a VERY short timescale.

By obtaining the assets of the Old Company, I assume the bits in bold have been done?

[grahamstuart1971]

'weegie glory hunters' FC to apply to 3rd Division like any other new team.

at least they will fulfill one of their long lasting dreams, they have always wanted to play in England..

................. Berwick awaits them.

[CaleyD]

ICTRoughi...as I understand it, the sale of the Assets will still have to be given the thumbs up by the liquidators (BDO), which might not be as straight forward as they first thought given that Smiths consortium had made a higher bid for the assets. There's also the small matter of one of the people Green said was part of his consortium now denying that is the case and that particular person is believed to have been one of the larger financial contributors!!!

The player thing is also up in the air and Greens claims that Players cannot walk-away have been undermined by an expert in Sports Law and a lecturer in law from the University of Stirling.

The only thing that seems certain at the moment is that Green has a company called "The Rangers Football Club" which he intends to use as the vehicle for the new club.

If either of the above end up in a legal tussle then it's game over for Rangers in terms of getting anything in place to allow them to participate in any league next season as it could take months (or longer) for it all to be sorted out.

[skifreak]

Are fans willing to step up to the plate and plug the (potential) financial shortfall that comes with the loss of the "Rangers" related income (notably the League Sponsorship and TV Money).

In so far as I'll still be going to games next season if there is no Rangers. However if the Rangers lookalike FC is in the SPL next season I shall not be setting foot inside the Caledonian Stadium (that might also be the case if there is no Rangers in the SPL but ICT voted in favour of the newco). I'm not paying good money to watch something that is simply rigged, allows massive scales of cheating if your one of the chosen two and has not one shred of sporting credibility left.

[Oddquine]

Could someone explain to me why Rangers are still able to vote re the SPL newco vote?

It's actually the liquidators who will have the vote as they (will) control the company.

Rangers (the OldCo) still own the share and that share entitles them to vote.

As I understand it though, there's a whole lot that needs to happen before a vote can be taken and it's feasible that by then the SPL will have found a legally sound way in which to take back that share.

Before a vote can take place.....

A NewCo needs to be formed.

It needs to have joined the SFA.

It needs a compliant stadium.

It needs a team.

Directors need to be declared "fit and proper persons to run a club".

And before any of the above can happen.....they need money!!!! It's one thing to offer up a few million to buy the assets, quite another to get the money together to put everything else in place...and to put it all in place in a VERY short timescale.

But if the Administrators of Rangers get a vote, then there is no vacancy to fill in the SPL is there? Wouldn't they have to resign, or whatever it is they have to do to create the vacancy to be filled by Dundee or Falkirk.or any newco? Sounds to me a bit illogical that you get to vote for the replacement for you.

[Scarlet Pimple]

What it sounds like to me is that the whole of Scottish Football is on the brink here if this vote takes place.

Who really thinks that ICT will die if they don't vote for the entry of Rangers without having to suffer the penalties discussed?

Why would they die if they entered any of the lower three divisions?

And why would they die if they even went back to the Highland League. Heck, theysurvived in that League for many years before the Pimple was even born and he's ancient?

Would not everyone feel a lot better watching ICT in action in any league which runs itself in an upright and legitimate manner; meaning that We know that we CAN survive without Rangers. What a refreshing thought that is!

[CaleyD]

Sounds to me a bit illogical that you get to vote for the replacement for you.

Me too, but that is how it sits at present.

[PullMyFinger]

There's still another vote to take place too, what punishment they get for not paying their taxes/NI contributions at all for a whole season. They got the transfer ban overturned and possible punishments are suspension/expulsion/SFA cup ban. It makes sense to have this vote immediately prior to any newco vote. Get it right up them.

[FoolPhysio]

Before a vote can take place.....

A NewCo needs to be formed.

It needs to have joined the SFA.

It needs a compliant stadium.

It needs a team.

Directors need to be declared "fit and proper persons to run a club".

And before any of the above can happen.....they need money!!!! It's one thing to offer up a few million to buy the assets, quite another to get the money together to put everything else in place...and to put it all in place in a VERY short timescale.

From a report on the radio last night, the sequence of events listed above is missing an important step - to be registered with the SFA the proposed club needs to have a firm offer of being included in a competitive league. Therefore they need to have the SPL vote sooner rather than later, as this underpins everything else. If the result was a resounding NO! then they would have to apply to the SFL and this adds yet more delay, before they can even consider any other aspect. As I understand it they have missed the deadlines for applications for the coming season to the SFL so why are we even still discussing it? As CaleyD notes above, time is not necessarily on their side and it supports the comment from Green that they may not be in competitive football for the next season which will give them the time required to sort it out.

The main problem in all this is the negative impact on all the other clubs due to the uncertainty of it all. Supporters are holding off on buying season tickets, no one truly knows who the 12th team in the league will be and hence the league fixtures are in limbo until this is confirmed. They (Rangers NewCo) should do the decent thing and just declare the next season as fallow, thereby removing all this uncertainty and allowing the rest of us to get cracking on our preparations for the year ahead. Of course decency is not one of their strong points.

Upshot is, as excruciatingly protracted this all seems to be, certain deadlines will force the issue and we are rapidly approaching that s**t-or-get-off-the-pot moment. And that cannot come too soon.