The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Oddquine]

Given the Credit Rating agencies only slight worry about the Scottish economy was the level of our Financial Sector compared to our population, the banks, particularly RBS,  moving their Group/RBS brass plates to rUK would be a bit of a blessing.  Wonder if it can keep the "of Scotland" in its name if it does.   Their Direct Line Group is already registered in England,

 

It had already been decided, btw, to satisfy the EU Commission over the bank bailout, to sell off/hive off  the Scottish NatWest branches, to a financial services consortium, and rename them Williams & Glyn, registered in England, along with the RBS branches in England and Wales, and their personal customers and some business and corporate customers from around the UK, and the Direct banking division, around 2016. Nothing to do with the referendum. Afaik, anyway, though happy to be corrected....it is an EU requirement that a bank is registered in the country in which the bulk of its business takes place..which, for Royal Bank Group, is in England, not Scotland. It's a wee bit sneaky to make it sound as if it is all down to possible Independence. They have also said  RBS intends to retain a significant level of its operations and employment in Scotland to support its customers there and the activities of the whole Bank.

 

Be interesting to see, if the UK comes out of the EU, whether the £85,000 guarantee will still apply...as that is an EU requirement, not a UK choice. If Scotland is in the EU, they will be obliged to continue it, if rUK isn't, they might not.  Just saying!

 

It is only sensible to do contingency planning...as all the banks, and likely other sensible businesses are doing...shame Westminster doesn't think contingency planning is necessary for them!

 

It is a real pity that it has been spun in the media as it has, because it makes it look vindictive rather than a logical preparation for eventualities. None of them are removing  their branches, the jobs etc from Scotland, just deciding to hedge their bets and stick with "the regulation they know they can manipulate" in case the new Scottish regime, whatever flavour it is, doesn't let them dictate their preferred regulations to them.

 

 

 

[+DoofersDad]

For the fearties, even the BBC is saying that the previous capital leaving the 'UK' is not due to the referendum, but due to forthcoming changes in interest rates.

... due to the strength of the UK economic recovery.

 

Salmond wants to separate Scotland from the UK economy in a political sense but doesn't have the confidence in the Scottish economy to propose a separate Scottish currency.  I thought being independent was supposed to be about taking control of your own destiny.  Instead he plans to shackle Scotland to the UK's economy so rUK can bail us out when it becomes clear that his bribes to the voters cannot be afforded.  At the same time he wants to shackle Scotland politically to the EU and have our laws decided for us in the forlorn hope that foreign workers currently here stay and that others come in order to give the economy the kind of boost necessary to pay for his bribes.

 

As the IFS paper on the NHS in Scotland showed, even with the extra funding Scotland currently receives, Salmond's Government is failing to protect funding to the NHS in Scotland, whilst the English NHS is receiving real increases in funding despite the greater squeeze on public funding South of the Border.

 

No wonder Salmond avoids debating these issues. With just a few days to go before a vote which could end a 300 year union, rather than debate the issues, the First Minister of Scotland instead demands an inquiry into a leak of an RBS statement that we all knew about in any case and which Salmond himself dismisses as a mere technicality.  If that isn't the pinnacle of irresponsibility I don't know what is.

 

Yesterday Johann Lamont said  "The SNP lies about our NHS have been the most shameful piece of political campaigning I have ever seen. They have deliberately misled the Scottish public, and preyed on the fears of the most vulnerable people in our communities to bully them into voting for separation.

"This expert, impartial report has exposed that what Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Neil and the rest of the nationalist campaign are saying about the NHS is completely untrue.

"The reality is, separation would see those with the least lose the most. It would mean huge austerity to our public services, our schools and our hospitals."

 

That is a damning indictment of the "YES" campaign by the leader of the opposition. But instead of rising to the challenge and responding to that, he pompously demands an inquiry into a completely inconsequential leak.  This is a man who knows his lies and misinformation do not stand up to scrutiny and who is desperate to keep attention diverted from the real issues for a few more days.  My guess is that enough folk will have come to their senses by polling day to realise that this man is not to be trusted.

[Ayeseetee]

Doofer and the no camp see the question like this...

 

should Scotland be ruled by salmond

 

yes []

 

no  []

Edited September 13, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

Ignoring the fact that he is 60 and will no doubt be retiring pretty soon either way...

 

 

You can vote yes and then vote lab / con / lib dem / green in the Scottish general elections!

Edited September 13, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

Doofer and the no camp see the question like this...

 

should Scotland be ruled by salmond

 

yes []

 

no  []

 

Then they are amply demonstrating their ignorance. We have 16 year old YES voters who know the difference between an election and a referendum.

[dougiedanger]

Doofer and the no camp see the question like this...

 

should Scotland be ruled by salmond

 

yes []

 

no  []

 

In a nutshell, and that is their fatal flaw. In focusing on one man they have neglected the 5 million others whose future this vote is about. In the end they just don't get it. 

 

Doofer, Yngwie and conservative types like them will have much to offer an independent Scotland, indeed their voices will be heard far more prominently than they are now.

Edited September 13, 2014 by dougiedanger

[Oddquine]

Forgot to throw this in at the end of my RBS post

 

 

 

And it applies to every other financial institution who has made contingency plans! Sheesh!

Edited September 13, 2014 by Oddquine

[Ayeseetee]

Salmond , he , his , he , his , Salmond's ,  Salmond , the First Minister of Scotland , Salmond himself , SNP , Alex Salmond , Nicola Sturgeon , Alex Neil , nationalist , he , This is a man , this man is not to be trusted.

 

 

I Edited out everything but the salmond / snp references

 

 

that is alot for one post 

 

 

(17 in fact)

Edited September 13, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[JockWatt]

Doofers dad quote - "a 300 year union" !

 

You mean "a 300 year RULE" don't you ?

[Oddquine]

 

Salmond , he , his , he , his , Salmond's ,  Salmond , the First Minister of Scotland , Salmond himself , SNP , Alex Salmond , Nicola Sturgeon , Alex Neil , nationalist , he , This is a man that this man is not to be trusted.

 

 

 

I Edited out everything but the salmond / snp  references

 

 

that is alot for one post 

 

A shade obsessed? A Nulabour voter for a polished turd sporting a red rosette, d'you think?

 

Have to say, the NO lot don't appear overly bright.....from Newsnet Scotland.........

.http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/9723-david-cameron-pleads-with-newsnet-scotland-editor-to-back-no

 

Below is the email sent on behalf of the Prime Minister:

Lynda,

My message to the Scottish people is simple: we want you to stay.

As the United Kingdom, we have punched above our weight for centuries - and we've done so together.

When the world wanted representation, we gave them democracy. When they wanted progress, we had the Scottish enlightenment and the industrial revolution. 

When slavery bound innocent people, we abolished it; when fascism threatened freedom, we defeated it.

As individuals and as nations, we have done extraordinary things. This is the special alchemy of the UK - you mix together Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland and together we smash expectations.

The UK is a special and precious country. So let no one in Scotland be in any doubt: we desperately want you to stay; we do not want this family of nations to be ripped apart.

Across England, Northern Ireland and Wales, our fear over what we stand to lose is matched only by our passion for what can be achieved if we stay together.

So please, if you don't have a vote in this referendum, join me in signing a letter to everyone who does, letting them know that we passionately want them to stay: http://email.conservatives.com/a/tBUEIHRB81Nm6B88VEVAAEKGatW/cons2

If we pull together, we can keep on building a better future for our children. We can make sure our destiny matches our history, because there really will be no second chances. If the UK breaks apart, it breaks apart forever.

So if you have a vote, please choose a brighter future for Scotland by voting No.

And if you don't have a vote, please sign this letter to the voters of Scotland, expressing our heartfelt desire to keep our proud family of nations together: http://email.conservatives.com/a/tBUEIHRB81Nm6B88VEVAAEKGatW/cons2

Thanks,

David Cameron

 

You'd have thought, if they were actually bothering with the campaign, they might have noticed Newsnet Scotland was a wee bit inclined to be pro-indy. Wonder if Rev Stu got a similar email!

 

Also wonder what their definition of democracy is......maybe any set-up of government which leaves us in Westminster in charge of everything, from the kids' pocket money to who we are going to fight with tomorrow, and what/who we are going to use to do it.

[Oddquine]

Media manipulation example..though I know it won't  convince some as to the media bias.

 

The picture the BBC chose to illustrate events in Glasgow’s Buchanan Street today

 

 

 

 

What it really looked  like.......

 

 

 

Wonder where the Orange March photos are?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Oddquine

[Ayeseetee]

O/T (ish)

 

One of the comments on that page mentioned "willie macrae" so I googled him

 

*tin foil hat time*

 

He was investigating nato operations in Scotland in 1985 and on the 5th of april 1985 he was found in his car on an off-road track with a gunshot wound to his head (but still alive) and the gun that he used to supposedly shoot himself with was found 60 feet away from his car in a burn and had been fired twice he was not wearing gloves but the gun had no finger prints... Neither MacRae's medical reports nor the post-mortem data have ever been revealed. Nor has there been an accident report

 

At the time of his death, McRae had been working to counter plans to dump nuclear waste from Dounreay into the sea. Due to his house being burgled on repeated occasions prior to his death, he had taken to carrying a copy of the documents relating to his Dounreay work with him at all times. However, they were not found following his death, and the sole other copy which was kept in his office was stolen when it was burgled, no other items being taken

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_MacRae

 

 

spooky!

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

It looks as if the No campaign has convinced Kevin McKenna to vote YES.

 

My two-year journey to a new kind of political and cultural understanding during the referendum campaign on Scottish independence has been far from straightforward. I had expected the last few steps to be the most arduous and emotionally fraught of the entire process, but they have not. Thanks to BP, Standard Life, Royal Bank of Scotland, TSB, John Lewis and the mad Gadarene dash to Scotland of the Westminster elite, the final few days of the journey which had once promised to be rocky have been a breeze.

I am grateful to all of them. Together they are a microcosm of what the entire no campaign has been all about: money; raw corporate power and a naked sense of absolute entitlement. So I will be voting yes for an independent Scotland on Thursday, with a confidence and certainty that, until last week, I would never have thought possible."  Rest at...........

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/kevin-mckenna-why-i-am-voting-yes-for-scottish-independence

[Oddquine]

O/T (ish)

 

One of the comments on that page mentioned "willie macrae" so I googled him

 

*tin foil hat time*

 

He was investigating nato operations in Scotland in 1985 and one day he was found in his car on an off-road track with a gunshot wound to his head (but still alive) and the gun that he used to shoot himself with was found 60 feet away from his car in a burn and had been fired twice he was not wearing gloves but the gun had no finger prints... Neither MacRae's medical reports nor the post-mortem data have ever been revealed. Nor has there been an accident report

 

At the time of his death, McRae had been working to counter plans to dump nuclear waste from Dounreay into the sea. Due to his house being burgled on repeated occasions prior to his death, he had taken to carrying a copy of the documents relating to his Dounreay work with him at all times. However, they were not found following his death, and the sole other copy which was kept in his office was stolen when it was burgled, no other items being taken

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_MacRae

 

 

spooky!

 

The David Kelly of his day? 

[Ayeseetee]

Well he either he tried to shoot himself and missed and then shot himself in the head and continued to get out of his car throw his gun 60.ft away and then got back in his car.

 

Or

 

he knew something he shouldn't have and someone silenced him

 

 

Sorry I hate these type of conspiracy theory's but that doesn't add up  

[Ayeseetee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Murrell#Murder

 

The same thing happened to this English anti nuclear power / weapons campaigner who was scheduled to present her paper "An Ordinary Citizen's View of Radioactive Waste Management"

 

their deaths were 6 months apart and both were investigating the same subject!

 

 

 

(Sorry I will shut up now)

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

If you think if we vote no we automatically get new powers...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think again.

[Ayeseetee]

 

Also the English guy on this see's no problem that the debate coverage is mostly one sided

 

 

6:15 to 6:20

 

bonnie: let's talk about the other side

 

English guy: WHY?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[dougiedanger]

Doofers dad quote - "a 300 year union" !

 

You mean "a 300 year RULE" don't you ?

 

Well in Jock, the expats know the score.  

[+DoofersDad]

Doofer and the no camp see the question like this...

 

should Scotland be ruled by salmond

 

yes []

 

no  []

Not at all.  What the "No" camp have consistently been saying is quite the opposite of that.  The emphasis I gave to Salmond in my previous post was a reflection of that because Salmond is the First Minister who is fronting the "YES" case and he is the one who is primarily responsible for treating the referendum like an election with his bribing of the electorate with a short term plan which will require massive borrowing and throw Scotland further into debt.

 

What the "No" camp is saying is that this is NOT an election where if your plans go pear shaped you can simply vote someone else in in 5 years time.  The "NO" position is that the long term future of Scotland's economy is more secure with a continuation of the Union.  The arguments are simply ignored by the YES camp who are dominated by folk who want independence come what may.

 

The choice we have is do you want an independent Scotland or do you want what is best for Scotland?  If they were one and the same then I too would be voting YES.  Unfortunately, all the facts point towards us being "Better together".  I know the YES camp are making a lot of noise and all that but they have completely given up any pretence of making a plausible case.  Next Thursday I sincerely hope that people do remember it is a referendum and not an election and realise that if they are taken in by the lies and bribes of the YES campaign, there will be no turning back.

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

Why on earth would an independent Scotland, already with a higher GDP than the UK as a whole and blessed with a world profile and natural resources that most of those other newly independent nations could only dream of uniquely in a pan European context become worse off ?

 

 

 

Because Scotland is where it is as a result of 300 years of a very successful political union.  The YES campaign's desparation to maintain a currency union with the UK is evidence that the leadership knows that to be true, even if they won't admit it.

[dougiedanger]

How can anyone defend the Westminster government after it has been exposed that they broke city rules to leak the story (actually a non-story) about the RBS headquarters and that Cameron orchestrated the scare stories about supermarket prices (again, a non-story that has subsequently debunked??

 

Whose interests are they fighting for here? Certainly NOT those of the Scottish people who are looking for reliable information on which to base their vote, but all they get from Westminster is lies, half-truths and scare stories.

 

How can anyone trust Westminster to do the best for Scotland when they have shown that all they are concerned about is self-preservation and narrow self-interest?

 

The whole idea of British 'fair play' has been exposed as a myth--the British elite are the most conniving, self-interested group you could imagine.

 

Are we really better together with this lot? 

[dougiedanger]

 

 

 

Why on earth would an independent Scotland, already with a higher GDP than the UK as a whole and blessed with a world profile and natural resources that most of those other newly independent nations could only dream of uniquely in a pan European context become worse off ?

 

 

 

Because Scotland is where it is as a result of 300 years of a very successful political union.  The YES campaign's desparation to maintain a currency union with the UK is evidence that the leadership knows that to be true, even if they won't admit it.

 

 

This is more pompous nonsense--how can anyone know where Scotland would be without the union? The suggestion is, as it has been all along, that we are not capable of looking after ourselves, when in fact we are and always have been a dynamic, entrepreneurial, hardworking nation, with a social conscience.

 

Weren't you the guy that said the Scots MPs in Westminster should b**gger off back north? One bad poll for No and the inner UKIP quickly rose to the surface.

[old caley girl]

Media manipulation example..though I know it won't  convince some as to the media bias.

 

The picture the BBC chose to illustrate events in Glasgow’s Buchanan Street today

 

bs2.jpg

 

 

 

What it really looked  like.......

 

photo1.jpg

 

 

Wonder where the Orange March photos are?

Glasgow was bouncing yesterday! Only saw 3 BT folk all day. Young girlie wrapped in union jacks with Naw stickers on them!

Very effective silent anti nuclear protest by the Green Party on Buchanan St late afternoon as well!

[Yngwie]

scare stories about supermarket prices (again, a non-story that has subsequently debunked??

 

Supermarket prices WILL be higher than the rest of the UK.  I would be happy to explain the various reasons why, if you were prepared to listen.

 

Some major retailers have confirmed that this will be the case. None have denied it, as far as I can see.  All Tesco said was that it was "speculation", which is code for "it is actually correct but we have enough problems on our plate with being perceived as too expensive without saying we're going to put our prices up further, and nor do we want to p1ss off half our customers by being seen to take sides".

 

Making people aware of the various implications of their choice (ranging from possible to probable to definite) is irrefutably an essential part of the referendum process, so that people can make a balanced and informed decision.  It's certainly better than finding out when it's too late!