The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Yngwie]

I really don't know what's going to happen this week.  The No camp played their trump cards last week (getting their act together a bit on the devo-max/plus timetable, the banks giving their vote of no confidence, and major retailers going public with the consequences) and it seems to have halted the seemingly unstoppable momentum, but hasn't really won anyone back.  As far as I can make out, and given that Queen is going to keep her views to herself,  they have no cards left to play. But neither have Yes. It's like 2 heavyweights slugging it out in the final round, just waiting for the bell and for the judges to decide.

 

What I do know is that on Wednesday, Salmond will deliver a rousing and passionate speech with great sound bites that will grab the news headlines, and that No don't have anyone capable of doing that remotely as well, and that could well make the difference when it is on a knife edge like this.

[Yngwie]

 they have no cards left to play. 

 

Scratch that, I hadn't counted on a letter from an English footballer

[starchief]

But what really will upset me...is that most of my own people...think we are too poor, too wee and too fecking stupid.as well, when the reality is that they are too bliddy feart, or too well off.

There's none that hate their fellow countrymen as much as a nationalist.

 

The reality is, polls have shown the biggest reason for voting 'no' is a love of Britain.  A positive choice for them.

 

Anyway, I've been predicting a Yes since it was announced, no matter which side I was veering to.  I remember the Arab Spring, when all came out for change.  It's much more inspiring but not necessarily best.  Mind you, the polls do show a No consistently leading with a high probablity of "shy no's" (a phenomenon most associated with "shy Tories" - they always do better than the polls as people feel intimidated to say they vote Tory, despite them being the largest party in England for the GE and over 1 in 4 voting Tory/Ukip in Scotland for the EU election) but I'll be voting 'no' and I've never been on a winning side, despite being a floating voter that has IIRC voted for six different parties in my lifetime (SNP, SSP, Green, Lib Dem, Labour and, if it counts, Independent if you're wondering).

 

My big hope is, whether Yes or No, Scotland accepts it and unites behind their people.  I suspect that will happen with a Yes vote.  But will Yessers agree to bury the hatchet, accept the result and move on with the choice of the majority in Scotland in the event of a No?

Edited September 15, 2014 by starchief

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

 

 

Doofers Dad -your post 1370. You say this is a Referendum, not an Election.---------------Correct!

Except that it will be the first that Scotland has been allowed to hold by Westminster in 300 years, I do believe. And if the "no" vote succeeds it will in all likelihood be the last.  This is show-time, or showdown-time, ladies and gentlemen. 

If you do not vote "yes" you could  live with regret for the rest of your lives because there will be no second chance as Westminster tightens it's grip on your life -- and your pocketbook. It will be same old, same old, after the dust settles and they realize thatb nthey have won and escaped doom and gloom. 

Did they let William Wallace off the hook with a slap on the wrist after they caught him after a 7 year-hunt? Not only did they kill him they physically ripped him to shreds in vengeance for his rebellious spirit to let the populace know who was the boss.

 

 

Dougie Danger: Post # 1372. ...." The whole idea of British fair play has been exposed as a myth. The British elite are the most conniving, serf-interested group that you could imagine."

Now, you and I are about 6,000 miles apart so clearly there is no collusion between us as to what we think or want to post.but isn't that almost exactly what I said in my thread about the expat pensioners based on my own experience and observations. 

The fact that British Justice and fair play is a myth.

 

Folks,  it always has been about greed, money or power. It's only about fair play when it serves their interest or agendas.

There have been referendums on devolution but this is the first on Independence.  But the point here is that there has not been one before simply because the level of support for Independence in the past has always been so low.  Far from being the case that if we don't vote for Independence now we will never get another chance, I think the very fact we are having a referendum when the historical support for independence has been so low is actually quite revealing.

 

It is actually quite extraordinary that not only are we having a referendum, we are having one which simply requires a majority of votes cast to make this major constitutional change.  Compare that with the requirements common within businesses and other organisations for constitutional changes!   We are also having a referendum without first having a lengthy procedure to develop a package for separation for putting to the electorate at the referendum.  In these circumstances, in the event of a "No" vote and a continuing sustained level of support for independence then it is inconceivable that the UK Government would not allow a further vote.

 

I think we have moved on a bit from William Wallace (at least we in the "No" camp have   ).  Following the "No" result on Thursday there will be no public execution of Alex Salmond or any other form of retribution.  The better together camp is of the view that we are better together.  That means that Scotland is better off in the Union and that the Union  is better off for Scotland being in it.  Any kind of backlash against Scotland for having dared to consider leaving the Union would be totally counter-productive as it would only serve to add fuel to the nationalist fire.

 

As for fair play - I am sure the UK Government could always introduce that and remove the extra £1200 per head public funding Scotland currently gets.

 

 

Uh-oh, mask slipping again.  The inner Nigel. 

 

 

 

 

Ah, feigned ignorance following a veiled threat, a classic British move.

 

As are most of yours, so fair play.

 

It starts out all jolly japes and what-oh chaps, but as soon as the natives start to pipe up and dare think for themselves, the mask slips and the congenital inability to consider an alternative viewpoint kicks in. My way or the highway.

 

Next step: the threats, in your case the "bugger off back across the border" and the UKIP/Daily Mail nonsense about the subsidized Scots and withdrawing the handouts.

 

Thank you for being too witless or arrogant to even try to hide the classic paternalism and we-know-best attitude of the British, and for providing a timely reminder of exactly why we must and will free ourselves for good from the little Englander attitude that you so amply demonstrate.

 

 

What utter nonsense! And rather unnecessarily offensive nonsense at that.  Your response deserves to be completely ignored or given another shrug at most.  But hey, I'll bite.

 

"the mask slips and the congenital inability to consider an alternative viewpoint kicks in."  I wonder if you are referring to me or yourself in that comment?"  You have previously stated that you are in the "Independence come what may" camp which, to me suggests an unwillingness to consider an alternative viewpoint.  On the other hand, as I have stated before, I came into this referendum leaning towards the "No" side but open to persuasion.  I have been more than willing to consider an alternative view point - it is just that I have found that alternative viewpoint to be unconvincing.

 

"Next step: the threats, in your case the "bugger off back across the border"."  As you well know, I have made no threats.  As you also well know the remark you quote specifically related to the the fact that if there is a YES vote and we become an Independent country on 24th March 2016, Scottish MPs at Westminster will have to relinquish their seats.  No threat - simple statement of fact.

 

"Thank you for being too witless or arrogant to even try to hide the classic paternalism and we-know-best attitude of the British, and for providing a timely reminder of exactly why we must and will free ourselves for good from the little Englander attitude that you so amply demonstrate."  Charming!  Just whose mask is it that's slipping?

 

For your information I'll tell you why I simply posted the shrug emoticon in response to your earlier bizarre reference to the "inner Nigel".  It certainly wasn't feigned ignorance!  It was simply to say, "what a pointless response!"

 

Over the last few days and weeks I have made a number of posts on a range of subjects and have tried to use facts to make reasoned arguments and to draw attention to uncertainties or apparent ambiguities in the pro-independence case.  I am genuinely interested in what the YES supporters views on these issues are.  Instead of engaging in constructive and reasoned debate your standard response is to make some dismissive comment or some obtuse reference to UKIP.  And I thank you for that.  Typical of the "Independence come what may" brigade, you want to stifle reasoned debate because you know it harms your case.  It is precisely the kind of behaviour that will drive any remaining undecided votes into the "No" camp on Thursday.

[dougiedanger]

It's appropriate and good that you are voting No, as you just don't 'get it'. The union is in tatters, and No people are in and of the past, while the Yessers are the Scots of the future, those bold and wise enough to hold on to the power they will have in their hands on Thursday.

[Ayeseetee]

 

A wee video of yessers in inverness yesterday

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alwLk4t4xtA#t=12

 

 

This is a very poor turn out considering there are around 60,000 people in the vicinity of Inverness.  Of all the people that I know in Scotland none of them are voting Yes -  that includes many, many people in Inverness.  I reckon there will be a lot of disappointed Yes voters the day after the Referendum.

 

 

 

Nice of you to jump to conclusions like that.... Did I ever say it was a show of numbers or that we invited everyone in inverness to come down?

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

 

 

 

Doofers Dad -your post 1370. You say this is a Referendum, not an Election.---------------Correct!

Except that it will be the first that Scotland has been allowed to hold by Westminster in 300 years, I do believe. And if the "no" vote succeeds it will in all likelihood be the last.  This is show-time, or showdown-time, ladies and gentlemen. 

If you do not vote "yes" you could  live with regret for the rest of your lives because there will be no second chance as Westminster tightens it's grip on your life -- and your pocketbook. It will be same old, same old, after the dust settles and they realize thatb nthey have won and escaped doom and gloom. 

Did they let William Wallace off the hook with a slap on the wrist after they caught him after a 7 year-hunt? Not only did they kill him they physically ripped him to shreds in vengeance for his rebellious spirit to let the populace know who was the boss.

 

 

Dougie Danger: Post # 1372. ...." The whole idea of British fair play has been exposed as a myth. The British elite are the most conniving, serf-interested group that you could imagine."

Now, you and I are about 6,000 miles apart so clearly there is no collusion between us as to what we think or want to post.but isn't that almost exactly what I said in my thread about the expat pensioners based on my own experience and observations. 

The fact that British Justice and fair play is a myth.

 

Folks,  it always has been about greed, money or power. It's only about fair play when it serves their interest or agendas.

There have been referendums on devolution but this is the first on Independence.  But the point here is that there has not been one before simply because the level of support for Independence in the past has always been so low.  Far from being the case that if we don't vote for Independence now we will never get another chance, I think the very fact we are having a referendum when the historical support for independence has been so low is actually quite revealing.

 

It is actually quite extraordinary that not only are we having a referendum, we are having one which simply requires a majority of votes cast to make this major constitutional change.  Compare that with the requirements common within businesses and other organisations for constitutional changes!   We are also having a referendum without first having a lengthy procedure to develop a package for separation for putting to the electorate at the referendum.  In these circumstances, in the event of a "No" vote and a continuing sustained level of support for independence then it is inconceivable that the UK Government would not allow a further vote.

 

I think we have moved on a bit from William Wallace (at least we in the "No" camp have   ).  Following the "No" result on Thursday there will be no public execution of Alex Salmond or any other form of retribution.  The better together camp is of the view that we are better together.  That means that Scotland is better off in the Union and that the Union  is better off for Scotland being in it.  Any kind of backlash against Scotland for having dared to consider leaving the Union would be totally counter-productive as it would only serve to add fuel to the nationalist fire.

 

As for fair play - I am sure the UK Government could always introduce that and remove the extra £1200 per head public funding Scotland currently gets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is precisely the kind of behaviour that will drive any remaining undecided votes into the "No" camp on Thursday.

 

 

 

http://www.retail-week.com/sectors/food/grocery-bosses-meet-david-cameron-as-scottish-independence-debate-escalates/5064114.article

 

 

I wonder if that will sway undecideds more than doofer moaning, he can't accept the fact it's not about the snp.... and when I bring up the parties that support the no camp (UKIP/BNP) he goes off on one!

Edited September 15, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

Interestingly I saw the geographical split of a poll the other day that showed the Highlands was by far the most "No" part of the country, followed by Edinburgh/Lothians some way behind. The Yes heartlands were the west/central belt.

 

This seems fairly consistent with a previous demographic analysis I saw which suggested that your average Yesser is a working class male whereas your ABC1 female in a rural area is the person most likely to be a No.

[Ayeseetee]

I was just looking at some pictures of politicans before they started in politics and it reminds me of the before and after pictures of crystal meth users...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if that will sway undecideds more than doofer moaning, he can't accept the fact it's not about the snp.... and when I bring up the parties that support the no camp (UKIP/BNP) he goes off on one!

 

 

Of course it's not just about the SNP.  There are folk in other parties and none who support the YES campaign, and, as I have pointed out before, the next time there is a Scottish parliamentary election the electorate may well decide to put another party in power.  But the SNP are the party of Government and it is their proposals for running the country after a "YES" vote that the YES campaign is constantly pushing as if this was an election and not a referendum.  As the SNP are so prominent in the YES campaign, one can hardly ignore them.

 

UKIP and the BNP are both opposed to independence but that should come as no surprise given their names.  But they are not associated with the Better Together campaign, I doubt whether anyone in the BT campaign thinks that those parties stating their views is of any support to the NO camp and it is rather silly to suggest that anyone who who is opposed to independence must somehow share their views.

 

UKIP are simply exploiting the situation for their own political ends.  I have no idea what arguments the BNP may have but I suspect their prime motivation for urging a "No" vote is so that they don't lose the fees of their Scottish members.

[+DoofersDad]

I was just looking at some pictures of politicans before they started in politics and it reminds me of the before and after pictures of crystal meth users...

 

 

 

 

 

Go on!  Don't keep us guessing?

 

Who are they?

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if that will sway undecideds more than doofer moaning, he can't accept the fact it's not about the snp.... and when I bring up the parties that support the no camp (UKIP/BNP) he goes off on one!

 

 

Of course it's not just about the SNP.  There are folk in other parties and none who support the YES campaign, and, as I have pointed out before, the next time there is a Scottish parliamentary election the electorate may well decide to put another party in power.  But the SNP are the party of Government and it is their proposals for running the country after a "YES" vote that the YES campaign is constantly pushing as if this was an election and not a referendum.  As the SNP are so prominent in the YES campaign, one can hardly ignore them.

 

UKIP and the BNP are both opposed to independence but that should come as no surprise given their names.  But they are not associated with the Better Together campaign, I doubt whether anyone in the BT campaign thinks that those parties stating their views is of any support to the NO camp and it is rather silly to suggest that anyone who who is opposed to independence must somehow share their views.

 

UKIP are simply exploiting the situation for their own political ends.  I have no idea what arguments the BNP may have but I suspect their prime motivation for urging a "No" vote is so that they don't lose the fees of their Scottish members.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/07/poll-scottish-independence-nationalist-yougov

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

 

This proves it works boths ways....

 

I am guessing he made the transition from acid to anti-depressants too quickly hence the whole hair / eyebrows situation?

[KingBeastie]

 

 they have no cards left to play. 

 

Scratch that, I hadn't counted on a letter from an English footballer

 

A multi millionaire English footballer.

A multi millionaire English footballer telling us that child poverty and foodbanks are ok, just carry on as normal.

[KingBeastie]

I posted my fiancee's postal vote for her this morning.

       

[KingBeastie]

The no campaign say if you don't know then just vote no.

This is because they know that if people bother to find out answers to their questions they will vote Yes.

 

If anyone out there is still undecided, rather than "just vote no" here's some info that may help inform:

http://www.yesscotland.net/still-undecided

[robbylad]

I really don't know what's going to happen this week.  The No camp played their trump cards last week (getting their act together a bit on the devo-max/plus timetable, the banks giving their vote of no confidence, and major retailers going public with the consequences) and it seems to have halted the seemingly unstoppable momentum, but hasn't really won anyone back.  As far as I can make out, and given that Queen is going to keep her views to herself,  they have no cards left to play. But neither have Yes. It's like 2 heavyweights slugging it out in the final round, just waiting for the bell and for the judges to decide.

 

What I do know is that on Wednesday, Salmond will deliver a rousing and passionate speech with great sound bites that will grab the news headlines, and that No don't have anyone capable of doing that remotely as well, and that could well make the difference when it is on a knife edge like this.

Salmond May we'll make a rousing passionate speech, but I doubt it will be on any front pages.

[robbylad]

Well..... grr, predictive text.

[robbylad]

Then you are bound to be able to explain, in that case, how Lidl and Aldi can sell stuff just as good as the big supermarkets......but a lot cheaper, right now, given they are bound to have as much, if not more, costs in getting their goods from where they are made to the warehouses in England and then up to the shops in Scotland where they are sold, (given I've never heard of most of their brands and can't pronounce a lot of them, I kinda assume they are not all UK produced goods).

 

Basically Aldi/Lidl operate a low cost model, from start to finish, top to bottom, with a small product range, basic stores, low staffing and relatively little marketing. A fair amount of their stuff, especially chilled, is sourced locally in Scotland/UK. But an awful lot of their stock is procured abroad through massive contracts that supply all of their European stores, with major economies of scale. Moreover, the brands you've never heard of aren't actually brands at all, it is just Aldi/Lidl own label, dressed up to be a brand. So they are paying a relative pittance for the goods. And they are damn good at what they do. They will always be cheaper than Tesco etc, but like any retailer they set different prices for each country they operate in.

You forgot to point out that aldi/lidl pay there staff far better than the rest.

[culduthel]

I too believe that we Yes voters are likely be disappointed come Friday. On the other hand, by far the majority of the people I know and speak to will be voting Yes and that too includes a fair few people in Inverness. Guess it just depends on who you know and the character and views of the people you speak to.

 

The important thing is that, whoever wins there is no gloating or triuphalism on the part of the victors. Scotland has the potential to win either way if we can work together and build on this unprecedented engagement with politics and democracy and put aside the differences of the campaign and work together to forge a better future for this ancient nation of ours whether that is within or without the confines of the United Kingdom.

 

Kingsmills I will have to introduce you to some of my friends.

[IBM]

Interestingly I saw the geographical split of a poll the other day that showed the Highlands was by far the most "No" part of the country, followed by Edinburgh/Lothians some way behind. The Yes heartlands were the west/central belt.

 

This seems fairly consistent with a previous demographic analysis I saw which suggested that your average Yesser is a working class male whereas your ABC1 female in a rural area is the person most likely to be a No.

That sounds good as the population is much greater there!

[Kingsmills]

 

I too believe that we Yes voters are likely be disappointed come Friday. On the other hand, by far the majority of the people I know and speak to will be voting Yes and that too includes a fair few people in Inverness. Guess it just depends on who you know and the character and views of the people you speak to.

 

The important thing is that, whoever wins there is no gloating or triuphalism on the part of the victors. Scotland has the potential to win either way if we can work together and build on this unprecedented engagement with politics and democracy and put aside the differences of the campaign and work together to forge a better future for this ancient nation of ours whether that is within or without the confines of the United Kingdom.

 

Kingsmills I will have to introduce you to some of my friends.

 

 

A kind offer but, on balance, I suspect I would prefer my own.

[culduthel]

 

But what really will upset me...is that most of my own people...think we are too poor, too wee and too fecking stupid.as well, when the reality is that they are too bliddy feart, or too well off.

There's none that hate their fellow countrymen as much as a nationalist.

 

The reality is, polls have shown the biggest reason for voting 'no' is a love of Britain.  A positive choice for them.

 

Anyway, I've been predicting a Yes since it was announced, no matter which side I was veering to.  I remember the Arab Spring, when all came out for change.  It's much more inspiring but not necessarily best.  Mind you, the polls do show a No consistently leading with a high probablity of "shy no's" (a phenomenon most associated with "shy Tories" - they always do better than the polls as people feel intimidated to say they vote Tory, despite them being the largest party in England for the GE and over 1 in 4 voting Tory/Ukip in Scotland for the EU election) but I'll be voting 'no' and I've never been on a winning side, despite being a floating voter that has IIRC voted for six different parties in my lifetime (SNP, SSP, Green, Lib Dem, Labour and, if it counts, Independent if you're wondering).

 

My big hope is, whether Yes or No, Scotland accepts it and unites behind their people.  I suspect that will happen with a Yes vote.  But will Yessers agree to bury the hatchet, accept the result and move on with the choice of the majority in Scotland in the event of a No?

 

 

A lot of Yes supporters seem to be fueled by a very strong anger and hatred.

I have found this to be a common denominator of "Nationalists" in all the countries I have lived in. They are angry with their lot in life and Nationalism is an escape and target for their frustrations and hatreds. It seems to give meaning to a life that had no meaning or direction before and so they embrace it with a born again zeal and fanaticism that becomes divisive, intolerant and bullying and dismissive of non-believers.

 

I too hope that whatever the outcome of the referendum that Scotland will move forward peacefully and united.

[Kingsmills]

 

 

But what really will upset me...is that most of my own people...think we are too poor, too wee and too fecking stupid.as well, when the reality is that they are too bliddy feart, or too well off.

There's none that hate their fellow countrymen as much as a nationalist.

 

The reality is, polls have shown the biggest reason for voting 'no' is a love of Britain.  A positive choice for them.

 

Anyway, I've been predicting a Yes since it was announced, no matter which side I was veering to.  I remember the Arab Spring, when all came out for change.  It's much more inspiring but not necessarily best.  Mind you, the polls do show a No consistently leading with a high probablity of "shy no's" (a phenomenon most associated with "shy Tories" - they always do better than the polls as people feel intimidated to say they vote Tory, despite them being the largest party in England for the GE and over 1 in 4 voting Tory/Ukip in Scotland for the EU election) but I'll be voting 'no' and I've never been on a winning side, despite being a floating voter that has IIRC voted for six different parties in my lifetime (SNP, SSP, Green, Lib Dem, Labour and, if it counts, Independent if you're wondering).

 

My big hope is, whether Yes or No, Scotland accepts it and unites behind their people.  I suspect that will happen with a Yes vote.  But will Yessers agree to bury the hatchet, accept the result and move on with the choice of the majority in Scotland in the event of a No?

 

 

A lot of Yes supporters seem to be fueled by a very strong anger and hatred.

I have found this to be a common denominator of "Nationalists" in all the countries I have lived in. They are angry with their lot in life and Nationalism is an escape and target for their frustrations and hatreds. It seems to give meaning to a life that had no meaning or direction before and so they embrace it with a born again zeal and fanaticism that becomes divisive, intolerant and bullying and dismissive of non-believers.

 

I too hope that whatever the outcome of the referendum that Scotland will move forward peacefully and united.

 

Wow... I don't know who you talk to but I assure you that does not describe me or the very many people I know who will be voting Yes. Not even David Cameron has made such an insulting and abusive assertion.

[IBM]

The dozens of people I know that are voting YES are easy going hard working who just want a fairer society............And the three who are voting no are the same!