The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

 

 

Why on earth would an independent Scotland, already with a higher GDP than the UK as a whole and blessed with a world profile and natural resources that most of those other newly independent nations could only dream of uniquely in a pan European context become worse off ?

 

 

 

Because Scotland is where it is as a result of 300 years of a very successful political union.  The YES campaign's desperation to maintain a currency union with the UK is evidence that the leadership knows that to be true, even if they won't admit it.

 

 

This is more pompous nonsense--how can anyone know where Scotland would be without the union? The suggestion is, as it has been all along, that we are not capable of looking after ourselves, when in fact we are and always have been a dynamic, entrepreneurial, hardworking nation, with a social conscience.

 

Weren't you the guy that said the Scots MPs in Westminster should b**gger off back north? One bad poll for No and the inner UKIP quickly rose to the surface.

 

Of course nobody can say where Scotland would be if we had never had the Union in the first place.  What we can say quite clearly is that having been in the Union for over 300 years, Scotland is a prosperous country and a great place to live.  What the YES campaign have manifestly failed to do is to give arguments as to why Scotland will do even better if it goes it alone. 

 

And as I have pointed out previously and as you well know, my reference to Scottish MPs heading back North was simply in the context that in the event of a "YES" vote, they will be required to do so because as from the 24th March 2016 they will no longer be entitled to sit in the Westminster Parliament.  I was simply stating fact.  Your rather silly remark is typical of the way the YES campaign deliberately twists and misinterprets things.  I'm really not sure where your constant references to UKIP come from.  They really have more in common with you lot - you both want their countries to leave a political union.

[dougiedanger]

We will not be b##gering of anywhere, don't worry.

Yes, where would Scotland be without the wonderful union, where would we be without the clearances, the wars, the land broken and in the hands of absentee landlords, loss of language and culture, mass emigration, poverty, Margaret Thatcher, the poll tax, Tony Blair, disastrous interference in the Middle East, Cameron, the bedroom tax, tax cuts for the rich, the social fabric of the nation in tatters?

[Ayeseetee]

 

scare stories about supermarket prices (again, a non-story that has subsequently debunked??

 

Supermarket prices WILL be higher than the rest of the UK.  I would be happy to explain the various reasons why, if you were prepared to listen.

 

Some major retailers have confirmed that this will be the case. None have denied it, as far as I can see.  All Tesco said was that it was "speculation", which is code for "it is actually correct but we have enough problems on our plate with being perceived as too expensive without saying we're going to put our prices up further, and nor do we want to p1ss off half our customers by being seen to take sides".

 

Making people aware of the various implications of their choice (ranging from possible to probable to definite) is irrefutably an essential part of the referendum process, so that people can make a balanced and informed decision.  It's certainly better than finding out when it's too late!

 

 

 

"Mohammed Ramzan, chairman of United Wholesale Grocers, also described the claims as "scaremongering".

The entrepreneur, who has lived in Scotland since 1974, said: "I am hugely disappointed with the scaremongering on food prices in an independent Scotland - there is just no truth in these claims.

"My business supplies to 4,000 corner shops and 2,000 carry outs - as well as owning 275 stores - and regardless of the outcome of the referendum I am planning to reduce prices in my shops over the next five years."

 

 

A wee list

 

aldi

 

Asda

 

co-op

 

lidl

 

iceland

 

farmfoods

 

morrisons

 

tesco

 

sainburys

 

waitrose

 

 

If you seriously think ALL of them are going to rise their price you are pretty deluded.... it only takes one of them to keep the prices the same and everyone will shop their and that will force the others to do the same or lose our custom!

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

A former head of the British Army, Lord Dannatt, told the sunday telegraph that a "Yes" vote could be "letting down" the Scottish soldiers who "died to keep Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom".

 

 

 

using dead soldiers to swing votes how nice...

[Ayeseetee]

Live BBC bias protest: https://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/BBCBiasV

[Yngwie]

Ayesettee, the Cash & Carry chap you quote is a prominent SNP/independence supporter so what else is he going to say?!

 

Secondly, his business only operates in Scotland and is not therefore currently using UK-wide flat rate prices which subsidise the higher cost of doing business in Scotland.

 

Thirdly, what is his current grocery market share? 0.001%?

 

Fourthly, good bit of self-publicity to say that he's gonna cut his prices whatever. 

 

Fifth, I'd be willing to bet an awful lot of money that in 5 years time his prices will be a fair amount higher, not lower.  His suppliers will put up their prices, his wage costs will be higher, and he will do whatever is needed to maximise his profits.

 

Sixth, when he says "I am planning to reduce prices in my shops" that is a strange comment because I know who he is and he doesn't actually have any shops.

[Ayeseetee]

Ayesettee, the Cash & Carry chap you quote is a prominent SNP/independence supporter so what else is he going to say?!

 

Secondly, his business only operates in Scotland and is not therefore currently using UK-wide flat rate prices which subsidise the higher cost of doing business in Scotland.

 

Thirdly, what is his current grocery market share? 0.001%?

 

Fourthly, good bit of self-publicity to say that he's gonna cut his prices whatever. 

 

Fifth, I'd be willing to bet an awful lot of money that in 5 years time his prices will be a fair amount higher, not lower.  His suppliers will put up their prices, his wage costs will be higher, and he will do whatever is needed to maximise his profits.

 

Sixth, when he says "I am planning to reduce prices in my shops" that is a strange comment because I know who he is and he doesn't actually have any shops.

 

 

1. Asda are cosying upto number 10 so the same could be said for that

 

2. If the supermarkets can afford the prices now they can do it after indy which is a political border nothing more

 

3. what does market share have to do with it?

 

4. a bit cynical but whatever

 

5. Ah so take your word for it nice argument

 

6. ahh so you ignored all those super markets I listed and just focused on that one guy nice try 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[starchief]

As I've posted on here, I was a "don't know" for a number of months but the White Paper  and election material completely lost me.  There was no wieghing up of the evidence, just sheer blind optimism.  All it was is "if everything goes right on the currency, the EU and oil it'll be ok".  But what if it doesn't go right?  I'd much have preferred a paper/election materials that spoke of the dangers and opportunities.  As it is, it's just a pig-in-a-poke, as if questions like currency and EU membership weren't important enough to be examined fully and presented.

 

As a federalist, I can accept that localising power to the Scottish level is appealing but it's complete pie-in-the-sky of how we will automatically be in Europe, even though Junckers himself said there is no other route other than to apply (took Iceland 10 years before they gave up).  It would be even more unlikely with the follow through with the threat of not taking any debt.  No international loans, except at punitive rates.  No EU membership.

 

As for economics, someone on UK Polling Report summed these up:
 

The Nats don’t trust:

1) The chief secretary of the Treasury, who is a career civil servant with no political party affiliation;

2) The governor of the Bank of England, who is a Canadian, and also has no partisan affiliation;

3) The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, who is a German with a PhD from Princeton and also a former employee of the IMF;

4) The former president of the European Comission, who of course is Portuguese and has no conection to UK political parties;

5) The PMs of Australia and Canada,

6) The American Nobel prize laureate, Paul Krugman, and,

7) Incidentally, the IMF itself.

They do however trust Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon abd others alike who tell them that all of the above, plus the CEOs of most top 100 UK companies, the Scottish banks and insurance firms, most Scottish newspapers, etc. are in league with those “effing English Tories” to lie to the Scottish people and scare them about the economic consequences of independence.

Project Fear?  Yeah, I have fears about the economic consequences.  Only idiots don't.  No, that doesn't make me a member of Better Together.  I veered towards Yes before the White Paper. 

 

That also doesn't make me a Tory or Ukip.  Never voted for either, although, given at the last EU election over 27% voted for them, that means 1 in 4 people are being told a vote of Yes means your affilitation will never have a say in Scotland's future again.  I don't even believe that myself but disenfranchising such a large part of the population just isn't right.

[robbylad]

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

Now you're just being logical. No room for logic from no better together.

[Oddquine]

Yngwie, mortgages,and investment income etc can go up or down...as everything can........and the reasons all things go up or down are the policy decisions of Governments and the policy decisions of companies.  We have always known that.........so the problem has suddenly become something different, has it, because of independence?  You know exactly what the policy decisions of the first Independent Scottish Government will be.......and exactly how that will impact on business in Scotland?  Do tell! We're interested!  Your crystal ball polished?

 

And while you are about it, perhaps you can also forecast if/when Westminster is going to stop the austerity cuts, balance the UK budget and stop racking up the national debt, close food banks, give Scotland meaningful devolution, do something to close the wealth gap and reduce poverty, come up with a democratic Parliament, denuded of the expensive placemen in the House of Politician Pensioners and Party Donors, and stop creating terrorists in the Middle East and "Wee Things" like that?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Oddquine

[Ayeseetee]

 

The Nats don’t trust:

1) The chief secretary of the Treasury, who is a career civil servant with no political party affiliation;

2) The governor of the Bank of England, who is a Canadian, and also has no partisan affiliation;

3) The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, who is a German with a PhD from Princeton and also a former employee of the IMF;

4) The former president of the European Comission, who of course is Portuguese and has no conection to UK political parties;

5) The PMs of Australia and Canada,

6) The American Nobel prize laureate, Paul Krugman, and,

7) Incidentally, the IMF itself.

They do however trust Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon abd others alike who tell them that all of the above, plus the CEOs of most top 100 UK companies, the Scottish banks and insurance firms, most Scottish newspapers, etc. are in league with those “effing English Tories” to lie to the Scottish people and scare them about the economic consequences of independence.

 

 

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Secretary_to_the_Treasury - danny alexander the lib dem mp for inverness (it's a small world huh?)

 

2. You seriously don't think Wm can't pull strings in the bank of england?

 

3. They also said it would kick off the next great depression and aberdeen assests who are bigger than them and are based in scotland have no plans to move if it's a yes vote and dismissed the claims we would not be successful

 

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ADN.L

 

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=DBK.DE

 

4. we have 60% of Europe's gas and oil and 20% of the fish to think we wouldn't be considered would be a massive mistake...

 

5. again Wm pulling strings and a bit of hypocrisy coming from leaders of two countries that have been super successful after gaining independence from england

 

6. There is also and nobel prize winner on the yes side: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28929433

 

7. The imf have never known to be wrong:

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-08/comedy-forecast-errors-here-are-imfs-latest-projections-economic-growth

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/24/another-uk-growth-forecast-dollop-egg-face-imf-international-monetary-fund

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/uk-economic-recovery-imf-apologizes-osborne-getting-it-wrong-1596052

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

If you want scotland to be independent vote yes if not vote no because neither side has been able to prove if we would be £500 better or worse off and it's come to this!

 

 

Also the German bank has had 2-3 years to pipe up why did they leave until 7 days before we vote if it's going to cause a collapse of the world markets?

[Yngwie]

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

 

It is indeed a highly competitive market, but if ALL the major retailers are faced with the same upward cost pressures then sooner or later they all have to pass those costs on to the customer, that's just how it works. 

[Ayeseetee]

 

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

 

It is indeed a highly competitive market, but if ALL the major retailers are faced with the same upward cost pressures then sooner or later they all have to pass those costs on to the customer, that's just how it works. 

 

 

I fail to understand how prices will rise since everything is in place now so that each store makes a profit?

 

 

I worked in the eastfield way Tesco for 3 years and we turned out more profit than most English stores...

[dougiedanger]

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

 

It is indeed a highly competitive market, but if ALL the major retailers are faced with the same upward cost pressures then sooner or later they all have to pass those costs on to the customer, that's just how it works.

Are you really going to base your vote on the prospect of paying a couple of quid more or less for your messages?

[Yngwie]

No, there are other, much more important factors that will determine my vote.  I just think it is only right that people understand that supermarket prices will rise, particularly as it is something that hits the poor the most.

[dougiedanger]

That's right, 'cause the poor are really high on the list of priorities of the Westminster government.    

 

The glorious UK is the most unequal of all 'developed' societies, and 1 in 4 people in Scotland live below the poverty line, do we really think we can do no better for the poor in our society?

Edited September 14, 2014 by dougiedanger

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

This cloud has just drifted over my house.

[Oddquine]

 

tesco raise their price

 

adsa raise their price

 

morrisons stays the same

 

 

who will get the most business and who will lose customers and money?

 

It is indeed a highly competitive market, but if ALL the major retailers are faced with the same upward cost pressures then sooner or later they all have to pass those costs on to the customer, that's just how it works.

 

Well, of course.......that's the situation everywhere.......DUH. I'd have thought that if all the major retailers are faced with the same upwards pressure on current prices, there would still be a differential from retailer to retailer....otherwise they will be deemed a cartel, won't they?

 

Then you are bound to be able to explain, in that case, how Lidl and Aldi can sell stuff just as good as the big supermarkets......but a lot cheaper, right now, given they are bound to have as much, if not more, costs in getting their goods from where they are made to the warehouses in England and then up to the shops in Scotland where they are sold, (given I've never heard of most of their brands and can't pronounce a lot of them, I kinda assume they are not all UK produced goods). 

[+Wanderer]

This cloud has just drifted over my house.

 

 

"Giant Rabbit Invades Chorley" says intoxicated resident.

[Ayeseetee]

This cloud has just drifted over my house.

 

 

You get clouds going past your house, we have clouds AND nukes 

 

Want to trade?

 

http://glasgow.stv.tv/articles/282363-nuclear-weapons-driven-through-scotlands-streets-cnd-chief-john-ainslie/

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Scarlet Pimple]

Doofers Dad -your post 1370. You say this is a Referendum, not an Election.---------------Correct!

Except that it will be the first that Scotland has been allowed to hold by Westminster in 300 years, I do believe. And if the "no" vote succeeds it will in all likelihood be the last.  This is show-time, or showdown-time, ladies and gentlemen. 

If you do not vote "yes" you could  live with regret for the rest of your lives because there will be no second chance as Westminster tightens it's grip on your life -- and your pocketbook. It will be same old, same old, after the dust settles and they realize thatb nthey have won and escaped doom and gloom. 

Did they let William Wallace off the hook with a slap on the wrist after they caught him after a 7 year-hunt? Not only did they kill him they physically ripped him to shreds in vengeance for his rebellious spirit to let the populace know who was the boss.

 

 

Dougie Danger: Post # 1372. ...." The whole idea of British fair play has been exposed as a myth. The British elite are the most conniving, serf-interested group that you could imagine."

Now, you and I are about 6,000 miles apart so clearly there is no collusion between us as to what we think or want to post.but isn't that almost exactly what I said in my thread about the expat pensioners based on my own experience and observations. 

The fact that British Justice and fair play is a myth.

 

Folks,  it always has been about greed, money or power. It's only about fair play when it serves their interest or agendas.

[Sneckboy]

LOL!

But, uncanny, surely!..... WOW!

Maybe an omen.....

 

Like Fife's completely marginalised and all the women with pointy noses are heading-off to vote NO!!!!!

 

Joking aside, I t looks like the YES brigade will miss out - but only by a NOSE! hahaha

 

But in all seriousness, it's a democratic election and we have to go with the winner - and if it means another minimum 150 years of the status-quo, so-be-it.

There won't be a celebratory party as such, but Yngwie and I have painted (in icing sugar) NO on all our grapes to acknowledge the Unionist ideal! One of which has just been popped in my mouth! Thanks, mate.

Bowls of fruit aplenty, but If one of us were to leave it would be rubbish. See where this is going? One leaving?? A microcosm of the big picture?

But, anyway, I'm certain he'll be dangling his plums for my mouth before the night is out...

[Scarlet Pimple]

 Ach, yer plum loco, Sneckboy.

All yer grapes will be sour ones after a "No" vote. Grrrrrrrrrr!