Police and Stewards

[Guest TinCanFan]

Away tickets are sold out. You are offerred a seat in the home end. Do you...

a. Turn it down because it's not right and miss an amazing game. ( and victory. )

This is what I would do.  If I couldn't get a ticket for the game with the fans I'm supposed to sit with then I wouldn't go.

[jamie ictfc]

my friend said to stewards there is rangers fans in the caley end to which his reply was "do you want to go and tell them to get out"

sums the stewards up!

[CaleyD]

I only have 2 real issues when it comes to all of this.

1.  The club tell us they are doing all they can whilst at least one Senior Club Official is passing large numbers of tickets to people connected to the local supporters club for visiting OF fans.  Meanwhile other people at the club are left to carry the can and deal with the fallout when they have a genuine desire to stamp out the problem.

2.  Yet again the issue of home fans not receiving the same treatment in regards to stewarding/policing as the visiting fans on the basis that as we are the "softer" touch then it is easier for them to "deal" with us and ignore the exact same events at the other end of the ground because they are "scared" of them or what might kick off.

If it is getting to the stage whereby police are "scared" to deal with any element of any support then the answer is simple....they should not be allowed to enter the stadium in the first place.  Either that or the team responsible for those fans must provide/meet the cost of sufficient manpower to deal with any situation that should arise.

I don't give a feck about the money we would lose by not having them there.  You know the whole world has gone mad when the generally better behaved support receive harsher treatment than the morons who are left to do as they please....just because your scared you might lose a few quid.

[strathyjags]

do you know the seat numbers?  The club will know who bought these seats and will be able to block these sales for future games.  Season ticket holders could see themselves penalised if they have bought tickets for away fans. 

this is brought up after every old firm game,but as usual nothing is ever done to stop it

[dead_ball_specialist]

I couldn't care less about the Rangers fans in the home end. Anybody who was 'offended' when they cheered Rangers goals needs to get a life. Most of those Rangers fans travel hundreds of miles to support their team every week - should they be locked out to make way for the thousands of 'part time' home supporters who only emerge when we play the OF? I don't think so.

It's not like they choose to sit in the home end, they just take any tickets they can get their hands on. It's understandable - wouldn't you do the same if you were in their situation? The police were right to leave them be.

[CaleyD]

The police were very much in the wrong to "leave them be".  They are paid by the club to come in and act as part of the security which is there to ensure fan safety.  Part of the rules and guidelines laid down for that is that we have segregation which means opposition fans should be removed from either end if they become aware of them.

Sad fact of life is that people cannot always be relied upon to behave in a civil manner at events such as football which is why segregation was introduced.  It is not up to the SPL, ICT, The Stewarding Company, the Police or any individual to take it upon themselves to ignore the law/legislation on such matters.  And in failing to take action they have, in effect, ignored a situation which could potentially lead to a breach of the peace or worse.

You can argue that fans shouldn't be in the area designated to them, you can argue that others shouldn't make an issue of it or turn a blind eye and ignore it....but at the end of the day "IF" something had kicked off and people were injured or whatever, then the club, the police and the stewards have zero grounds to defend themselves as they failed to enforce the rules and guidelines as they are set out.

[ICTFCkev]

A few of my mates were told when they asked if they were gona do anything about the Gers fans in the ICT end that 'it is not a crime to support your football team'    :029:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXHbCYvzjI        :015:  :023:

[Guest eliza]

Thank you, Caley D, for your comments.

Week in, week out, I sit in the North Stand, and also in the away Section delegated for ICT fans at away games, without (so far and I hope always) no fear of intimidation.  However, on Sunday I am glad that Rangers did not score until the 88th/89th minute as the atmosphere changed immediately thereon.  Up til then, we were aware that there could be many away fans within us, but silent.  After the Gers goal, it was obvious that many away fans were in the North Stand, to the annoyance of the Home fans, and it could have turned very ugly.

The situation was not assisted at the start of the game  by a Police Officer marching up to the back seats and demanding that "everyone must be seated at all times" and then stating "no swearing - there are children all around you".  When the comment was made "Are you going to say that at the Rangers end" his response was "I have my eye on you", supposedly at one particular fan!.  This officer was conspicuous by his absence from then on. 

The situation regarding "away" fans sitting in the "home" end must be addressed before a really bad situation arises - I would never dream of sitting in the end other than mine, whether Premier, Division 1, 2 or 3, or even Highland League, so why should they? just because they couldn't be bothered to phone up their "home" team and book a ticket?

Please, ICT, Police and Stewards, this must be sorted soon, and especially before any games against OF.

[Row S]

Is the TCS not the only ground in the SPL where away fans get to sit in the stands allocated to home fans? As far as I'm aware it is not allowed at Pittodrie, Celtic Park, Tannadice, Ibrox, Easter Road or Tynecastle.  Is it perhaps the case that it is more obvious at the TCS because the demand from OF fans by far outstrips the capacity of the away section?

Apart from the three Huns thrown out of the west stand after the goal, police and stewards failed to take heed of complaints from home fans. It also did not help yesterday that before the game many home fans were openly selling wads of home tickets to Rangers fans.  Unless the club stamp the whole nonsense out now we will continue to see a tirade of postings on this website for as long as us and the OF remain in the SPL.

Finally, as for other wrong doings, was any action taken against the Sash singing bigots in the away end? Perhaps it is the case that evidence was being gathered during the game, at least I would like to think so.  The singing was clearly audible to all in the ground and it is also within the power of a certain Mr Murray to sort it out, given his much publicised stance on the matter.

[L_G]

Is the TCS not the only ground in the SPL where away fans get to sit in the stands allocated to home fans? As far as I'm aware it is not allowed at Pittodrie, Celtic Park, Tannadice, Ibrox, Easter Road or Tynecastle.  Is it perhaps the case that it is more obvious at the TCS because the demand from OF fans by far outstrips the capacity of the away section?  It's not allowed, just difficult to manage.  You are right the demand outstips the capacity and the police will not allow any cordoning of the main stand (eg the uncovered area) to increase their allocation

Apart from the three Huns thrown out of the west stand after the goal, police and stewards failed to take heed of complaints from home fans. It also did not help yesterday that before the game many home fans were openly selling wads of home tickets to Rangers fans.  Unless the club stamp the whole nonsense out now we will continue to see a tirade of postings on this website for as long as us and the OF remain in the SPL. If we had a note of the seats that were used the ICT fans who sold the tickets could be traced.  As I said earlier it's not an offence to sit in the 'wrong' end, but if you are in anyway offended by their behaviour, your first point of contact should be a steward, who should address the problem and call in the police if required to assist with ejection

Finally, as for other wrong doings, was any action taken against the Sash singing bigots in the away end? Sash isn't banned, just the ad libsPerhaps it is the case that evidence was being gathered during the game, at least I would like to think so.  The singing was clearly audible to all in the ground and it is also within the power of a certain Mr Murray to sort it out, given his much publicised stance on the matter.  Rock Steady have stewards who are contracted to Rangers for both home and away games, this is to stamp out the inappropriate songs as they are trained in what is and isn't acceptable. I'm sure the monitoring was better for this game as ICT would be penalised if it wasn't.  I would hope that action would be taken to these numpties

I have asked people with complaints to get in touch and so far not one response.  If we know where these fans were sitting in the home end, we can find out who sold the tickets and act accordingly.

[maimie]

1.  The club tell us they are doing all they can whilst at least one Senior Club Official is passing large numbers of tickets to people connected to the local supporters club for visiting OF fans.  Meanwhile other people at the club are left to carry the can and deal with the fallout when they have a genuine desire to stamp out the problem.

tbh and i'm not defending anyone here at all but i suspect that this is a bit of a smokescreen started by someone earlier.  i'll bet my bottom dollar that a 'senior club official' did not pass on large numbers of tickets for the home end to the local rangers supporters club.  if there were a block of folk sitting together i bet they all just came down at a specific time and bought 2 or how ever many tickets you were allowed each at the time.  they may well have been folk from the town but i'll guess that they did that when they did not know whether or not they would get an allocation for the away section.  they would then choose to sit in the away end and probably pass the home tickets on to someone else...  it may well be that there are tickets put aside for the local old firm supporters clubs but i'll also bet they aren't for the home end...

:sherlock2: :sherlock2:

[Bronson]

Having read all the replies to my original post, i think i should clear a few things up.

My complaint is not with the club, as there is only so much they can do on the selling of tickets. My problem iswith the police and stewards. The stewards sit for the entire game watching the home crowd, then when tensions rise and it is OBVIOUS that there are away supporters in the home end which has led to a situation, it simply has to be addressed.

If i sat in the wrong end to watch my team i would not be daft enough to be jumping around like a loony when my team scored, as i would worry rightly about the reaction of the people surrounding me.

The police apparently ejected rangers fans in the west stand, so why not in the north stand?

They ejected fans at the celtic game, but not on sunday, why?

The attitude that the police displayed was disgusting. I will be writing to the club, not to complain, but to seek clarification as to what roles the police and stewards should be playing at our stadium and about how they enforce the conditions printed on the reverse of our tickets.

A blind eye was turned which potentially could have led to an incident, yet they can pick out my jacket on cctv which happens to cover a third of a letter on an advertising board. Think the priorities are somewhat confused.

If someone feels the need to make a complaint to the police, isit too much for that complaint to be acted upon?

From the point of the disalowed goal going in, the mood changed in the north stand and i didn't like it. In fact i would have to seriously think about whether to bother going to the next home game against either the old firm.

With regards to contacting you about it lg, i will do, but in my own time. I work 24 hour shifts, and have a life outwith football but i will supply the row, section and seat numbers to the club and look forward to any response i get.

My problem is not with the club, but with the stewarding and policing.

I would rather not attend these games than have to sit with rangers fans. Perhaps small minded of me, but i have seen the negative side of some of these fans which included a girlfriend of one this sites users, being spat in the face and being called a fenian bast ard.

[Johnboy]

The police were very much in the wrong to "leave them be".  They are paid by the club to come in and act as part of the security which is there to ensure fan safety.  Part of the rules and guidelines laid down for that is that we have segregation which means opposition fans should be removed from either end if they become aware of them.

Sad fact of life is that people cannot always be relied upon to behave in a civil manner at events such as football which is why segregation was introduced.  It is not up to the SPL, ICT, The Stewarding Company, the Police or any individual to take it upon themselves to ignore the law/legislation on such matters.  And in failing to take action they have, in effect, ignored a situation which could potentially lead to a breach of the peace or worse.

You can argue that fans shouldn't be in the area designated to them, you can argue that others shouldn't make an issue of it or turn a blind eye and ignore it....but at the end of the day "IF" something had kicked off and people were injured or whatever, then the club, the police and the stewards have zero grounds to defend themselves as they failed to enforce the rules and guidelines as they are set out.

CaleyD...

I hope you will consider combining that very cogent post with elements of your previous post on this thread, print it out and send it on to the Chief Constable, at Northern Constabulary....

[Stirling Observer]

I can see the point about it being money for the club by having the away supporters in and in no way am i represent the majority but i rarely go to home games against the old firm due to the number of away fans in the home end.  I would rather watch it on setanta and save my money for a game v well/hibs ect and non OF.

Why? because at these games there is segregation where i dont have to listen to opposition fans sitting around me spouting bigoted songs and abusing the home players.  I reckon i can be quite passionate but not confrontational at games but i feel myself getting so frustrated at these games that i dont enjoy them.

[madsooz]

My husband, 2 young teenagers and I had the misfortune to be sitting in the uncovered area of the main stand nearest to the south stand - this was the second time we've been sitting there when playing against Rangers and unfortunately it was no more pleasant than the last. We try to go to as may home games as possible (work permitting) and also to take the youngsters to games when the bigger teams come calling. I was horrified to realise that there were probably as many Rangers fans in this particular section as there were home support and were any of them lifted???????????? No surprise to learn that they weren't and no-one even got a warning. Were there any stewards to be seen????? Were there heck as like!!! I really enjoy going to the home matches, but when it's a match against Rangers you are made to feel in the minority in your own stand. I actually told one Rangers supporter to get a ticket in his own stand the next time, only to be told "it wasn't my fault". Er, who bought the flamin ticket? I don't suppose he was hammered by an ICT fan & told to take it???????? Alex Macleod reckons that times have moved on and we should just accept what happens - no flamin way!!!!! Why should we??? Do we have to wait until there's a fight between fans and then the proverbial will well and truly hit the fan. Yes, times have moved on, but we live in a more violent and racially abusive society now - some football fans can be the worst offenders, and none more so than the old firm. My husband used to go to all the Hearts home games and says that any OF fans that were in the home stands were given short shrift to put it mildly - stewards and police were quick to remove them because they know how things might kick off if they don't. Incidentally, if season ticket holders are allowed to buy extra tickets, is it being monitored who they're passing them on to????? Friends/relatives who are OF fans???? I think the club needs to have more discussions with both the police and stewards and take on board the views of the fans (who pay out the money after all) to stamp out this blatant disregard by OF fans of club rules/policies etc.

[Guest TinCanFan]

Imagine if TCS was Celtic's home ground and the same amount of Rangers as there were in the home end on Sunday sat in the Celtic end.  There would a riot.  They wouldn't put up with it and neither should we.

[Scotty]

Alex Macleod reckons that times have moved on and we should just accept what happens

forget about everything else for a second and just ask yourself if this was an OF match at Parkhead or Ibrox whether this would be allowed to happen or even Aberdeen V Rangers at Pittodrie etc.

If the answer is no (as it would be) then there is no grounds to say we should "just accept what happens" because its only ICT V the OF. Our fans have just as much right to feel safe and content in the designated home areas at the TCS as any other fan has at their own ground and to say any different is treating them with contempt.

It is clear that many of the Rangers fans were not a problem behaviourwise, but it is equally clear that many home fans also felt intimidated or had their enjoyment somewhat spoiled and that is a problem.

It is also a problem to have such a wide variety of ways of dealing with fans. If OF fans are not going to be removed from the home areas of the stands, then lets just get rid of segregation. no wait, we cant, its in the rules. ok then, lets apply the rules in the same way as we would for fans of Hearts, Hibs, St Mirren or Gretna .... no wait, we cant, against other teams we could happily move fans from home areas into empty seats in the away stand but for OF games we have already filled that one up. and of course we can't throw them out for breaking the stadium entry conditions, they might get angry.

We need consistency, and if that takes a few games where there are extra police and opposing fans are horsed out of the home ends then so be it. The next time the fixture comes up again, the same thing should happen until it is realised by the fans themselves that the only way you are going to get away with being an opposition fan in the home end is if you are happy to make the trade-off of sitting quietly on your hands.

And while we are on about consistency, I have seen a few mentions of the standing/sitting debate again in relation to this game. Again, if you are going to berate home fans at every game when they stand even for a minute or two, and do the same to opposing fans that travel in smaller numbers but then turn a complete blind eye to the OF standing or even sitting in the aisles then that also needs to be looked at.

-rant over-  :015:

[dead_ball_specialist]

we live in a more violent and racially abusive society now - some football fans can be the worst offenders, and none more so than the old firm.

I completely disagree with that. Most of the things people are complaining about on this thread are frivolous compared to the anti social behaviour / hooliganism that used to be endemic in British football until fairly recently. You're probably more likely to be assaulted by a steward than by an opposition fan these days.

I also take umrbidge at the casual way that some people slur Old Firm fans as if they're a homogenous rabble of walking stereotypes. In doing so you're commiting the same form of blanket group prejudice that you accuse them of.

[SMEE]

There is little point mumping and moaning on here about OF fans being in the home end. You need to make the little extra bit of effort and contact the club directly. Surley then they would have to take notice if enuff people take the time to do so.

[SMEE]

I also take umrbidge at the casual way that some people slur Old Firm fans as if they're a homogenous rabble of walking stereotypes. In doing so you're commiting the same form of blanket group prejudice that you accuse them of.

Totally agree, posted something similar on a thread a few days ago. There are good and bad people among the OF support (as with all teams) and I do believe that the vast MAJORITY are real football fans!

[Johnboy]

There is little point mumping and moaning on here about OF fans being in the home end. You need to make the little extra bit of effort and contact the club directly. Surley then they would have to take notice if enuff people take the time to do so.

The police are the body to whom complaints should be directed. They are paid by ICT to ensure rival groups of supporters are kept apart. As CaleyD has already pointed out roles and guidelines have been established by the game's ruling bodies over the years and it is up to the police to ensure that these are adhered to.

They quite clearly failed in their duty on Sunday and they should be called to account for their actions by the club.

[Guest Calum-Red-an-Blue]

i agree, we should not have away fans in the home end of the stadium, but as far as i am aware they are not breaking any rules because i think(although someone might want to check) the signs outside the stand say that: it is only an offence to were away colours in the home end .  surely if the club want to stop away fans getting in then they should clearly state that it is an offence to do this.  although someone please correct me if i am wrong with this.

also the comments about them only being loyal to their club ect is not right because many of thease OF fans live in inverness and only turn up to their teams game when they are in inverness, the reason they cant get in the away end in because  they dont have any priority in getting the ticket, so the next step is to get themselves into the home end, i think we should be getting them to the caley games every week to show them that there is more to scottish football than just the old firm  :symbol_question:

[Guest macgint71]

Can I just add to this and try to clear up a common misconception that most people have about the roles of the Police and Stewards.

The club are responsible for ensuring that the rules and regulations (not laws) are abided with during the period of a designated sporting event. This is usually contracted to a stewarding company by the club(whoever they are rock steady, ace security or the club could have there own stewards), this would include fans standing up, covering advertising boards!!, away fans sitting in home fans seats, home fans sitting in other home fans seats etc and any other RULES and REGULATIONS which the SPL, SFA place on the club.

The POLICE role is to ensure that the laws of the land are not broken during a designated sporting event such as entering whilst drunk, entering with a container (hence no cans or bottles allowed for sale within) or entering with a firework. They would also ensure that no person attending the event commits a common law offence such as Breach of the Peace or assault. They are there to assist the stewards but only when an offence has been committed or to prevent an offence being committed. Yes they do get involved telling people to sit down but that will be because of safety issues (don't always agree with this one) and not because the person behind cannot see, the steward would use this reason when they instruct people to sit down.

Again the police and stewards are individual people and are not programmed so will use their human discretion when dealing with a situation and Yes they will get it wrong and sometimes get it right but whatever they do there will always be people having a go, a dig because of ignorance, being unaware of the full facts and situation and also  (unfortunately) through bitterness due to past experiences with the club, stewards and police.

Now I know you can make a complaint of a Breach of the Peace if you are alarmed and annoyed at a persons actions (usually shouting and swearing) and some may say that they are alarmed and annoyed when an away supporter sits beside you, but do you honestly believe that a person should be arrested for buying a ticket for a football match! I'm sure if you read in the paper that someone was arrested out on the street for a similar petty annoyance then you would be complaining that resources and tax money is being wasted. It is the Clubs responsibility via the stewards to put this person out, if they shout, swear or struggle then yes the police would get involved.

I know what I'm saying isn't what a lot of people want to see or hear but I'm afraid that's life.

[CaleyD]

Now I know you can make a complaint of a Breach of the Peace if you are alarmed and annoyed at a persons actions (usually shouting and swearing) and some may say that they are alarmed and annoyed when an away supporter sits beside you, but do you honestly believe that a person should be arrested for buying a ticket for a football match! I'm sure if you read in the paper that someone was arrested out on the street for a similar petty annoyance then you would be complaining that resources and tax money is being wasted. It is the Clubs responsibility via the stewards to put this person out, if they shout, swear or struggle then yes the police would get involved.

I know what I'm saying isn't what a lot of people want to see or hear but I'm afraid that's life.

You don't have to cause an actual Breach of the Peace to find yourself being arrested.  You simply have to perform an act which could lead to a Breach of the Peace and whether people's attitudes to away fans in the home end is right or wrong, the very presence of these people could lead to such an incident and it gives the police the power to arrest and remove.

Standing up is not against the law, sitting in the wrong seat is not against the law.....yet we have witnessed people being removed from the stadium by police because some people have refused to adhere to these regulations.  These people were removed because they were considered to be a threat to a persons safety or their actions were threatening to cause a breach of the peace.

The Police are their to fulfil a role and as people have said above, they turned a blind eye to incidents which posed a threat to crowd safety and had the potential to result in a Breach of the Peace.  It's bad enough that nothing was done when people complained, but some officers refused to even acknowledge the threat.  To date the Police/Stewards have been pretty lucky as nothing has kicked off, but if they keep on refusing to act then it's only a matter of time before people get so peeved that they will start taking matters in to their own hands......that may not be what you wanted to hear, but that is life!!!

And one other thing.  It's not taxpayers money that is paying for the police at matches, the cost is met in full by the club.  So your argument about wasting resources/taxpayers money doesn't really hold water.

Just to finish off, I think the policing/stewarding at TCS has, on the whole, improved leaps and bounds since the end of last season/start of this season...and credit has to be given for that.  Their was a few issues at the last home match v Celtic and these were also dealt with in an appropriate manner and away fans in the home end who made themselves known were removed by police and/or stewards.  All they needed to do was follow the same routine last weekend, but for whatever reason they chose not to.

[Guest macgint71]

Caley D, I don't want this to turn into who's right and who's wrong.

I would be worried if people took things into their own hands, If a person doesnt think a steward or police officers is not doing their job correctly I hope they are not going to get involved and  decide to start escorting others out.

Yes the club does pay for the required number of police officers on duty but a lot of the time they have to come out early to police the city centre and trains and stay on until the centre is clear or the supporters leave on a train. These hours are outwith what the club pays for.

Its always easy to stand at the side and criticise. I believe that when the SPL deligate submits their report this includes the stewarding and policing of he event and maybe for those who do have concerns they could bring it up with the SPL. I wouldn't be surprised if in general they have been quite happy about the stewarding of these matches however nothing is perfect and there will always be the odd incident that occurs and displeases individuals.