Our First Signing Failure

[kencar]

In today's P&J....CALEY Thistle have missed out on Morecambe midfielder Garry Thompson ? but Inverness manager Craig Brewster won?t slacken his recruitment search.

Brewster made an approach to Thompson, 27, but the player has agreed a three-year-deal with relegated Championship side Scunthorpe.

Thompson made more than 300 appearances for the Shrimps, but has turned down the chance to play in the SPL for the opportunity to move up to League 1.

Brewster said: ?I will keep trying to identify players, go after them and see if they will come to Inverness.?

Apparently he is a winger

[RiG]

Disappointing we have missed out on a target but at least we are looking. And I would prefer we did it this way instead of naming our targets in the press as we have done in the past.

[Kingsmills]

Totally agree, that's the best way to do business.

[MissICT]

Its proof that brew is serching!

[Hiro]

Good to see we are active in the transfer market and even better that we're doing it behind closed doors for a change. However, I'm worried about the quality of the target mentioned. A 27 year old Morecambe midfielder is not really what we should be looking at. If we're looking at a level as low as that I'd prefer it to be a 20 year old with potential because if at the age of 27 this guy had not been picked up by a higher level it suggests he probably won't improve our squad (Dean Macdonald anyone?)

[SMEE]

Exactly my thoughts James. From that level, you should need to be an exceptional talent for anyone to take a punt for SPL

[BornCaley]

i totally agree that by the ages of 27, a player with talent should be playing at a higher level.

Ive said before that we made a big deal with Dean Macdonald, so i wouldnt want to be caught out again.

[Caley Mad In Berks]

To be fair, the guy has gone up a level now in England.  I doubt very much whether we could afford players from England at a much higher level.  Championship players will be on thousands per week, and I would suspect that even Div 1 teams and the better Div 2 teams pay at least what we do (maybe with one or two exceptions, eg Marius). So I don't think Brew has much option than to scour the lower leagues in the hope of finding a bargain, perhaps not yet spotted by anyone else.

[Alex MacLeod]

Woooaaaahhhhhh guys and Girls...................positive comments on a thread about failure.

Stark contrast to the 'why are we not hearing anything' brigade on some other threads.

Oh and I agree with the comments. Business should be done quietly. If I ran a supermarket I wouldn't be sending out info to my customers about who I intended to hire or fire.

[4ize]

Have any of the boo boys actually seen him play? He went through a spell at Morecambe where frankly the manager hadn't a clue where to put him. Once he settled on the right under McIlroy he never looked back.

Last season he was instrumental in getting the Shrimps promoted to the football league for the first time in their history, not least by scoring the equaliser and making the winner at Wembley in the play-off final against Exeter (I was there). This season he's made the step up effortlessly, topping the League 2 table for assists (11) and banging in eight goals.

Morecambe, the club whose youth academy he came through and to whom he's shown immense loyalty (yes, it does exist) despite other offers, offered him the best deal they'd ever put on the table to try and keep him. Meanwhile Scunthorpe, who'll be looking to get right back into the Championship, offered him more money than we could afford.

So carry on looking down your noses - one day you might see beyond the end of them. He would have been a fantastic signing for the club.

[SMEE]

I think you underestimate the SPL more than we do the skill of this player

[4ize]

There are a fair few SFL second division teams who'd struggle in League Two, but we're bidding for Barrowman, and I tell you what, if Scunthorpe win promotion Thompson will be playing at a higher level than the SPL the season after next.  I think you wildly overestimate the quality of this league, certainly towards the bottom (you know, where we are?).

[Scotty]

I cant comment on the player because I know nothing about him whatsoever but i see three positives in this "failure"

1. We seem to be actively looking at players.

2. We seem to be doing it quietly which gives us a chance not to get involved in bidding wars.

3. We are looking further afield than Ross County.

Tend to agree with 4ize in that we cannot afford to be looking down our noses at other teams. We all love ICT, we all think they are the best thing since sliced bread, and we can all be proud of what we have achieved since 1994 which culminated in getting to the highest level in our country. but lets have a reality check ... We may be in the "Premier League" ... but it is the Scottish Premier League and whether we like it or not, or are prepared to admit it or not, outside the big two, it is a very poor relation to most of the leagues in England and on a different planet when compared to the English Premiership.

For those who write a player off just because they come from a lower league, I have two words for you ....... Dougie Imrie

playing Junior Football not that long ago and now a regular starter for an SPL side .... His performances over the last few months also saw him shoot up the POY rankings that fans on here vote for based on performance ..... Sure, he is raw, but his talent can be worked upon and that seems to be happening. One of the things that made me question some of the doubts I have about Brewster was seeing how he cajoled, encouraged and coached him through the one game I saw in person this season ... If Brewster has the ability to spot a raw talent like Imrie (or someone else from lower leagues in England or Scotland) and then mould that talent into a decent player, then maybe, just maybe, we may actually prove to have a good coach on our hands ....

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

One of the guys at our work supports the Shrimps and he feels that Thompson is a classy player and deserves a step up. I am more worried what Brew does to the cnuts when we do get them.

[troublegum007]

Encouraging to see that there seems to be players identified and things are being kept quiet. Scotty mentioned Imrie regarding stepping up in levels, if i remember his signing was pretty much kept quiet until it was done as well, so hopefully that's a sign of how business is going to be done (regular Barrowman updates aside).

[CaleyD]

I agree with doing the specifics "on the quiet" but I still think it would be a positive thing if the club were to say what plans are for the new season in terms of how they want to build/rebuild the squad.  You look at Falkirk and whilst Hughes has never named targets, he has said that he is looking to bring in older more experienced players...and that's what he's doing.  ICT should be undertaking similar communication with fans....it's become my favourite saying, but "The club need to manage fan expectation better"

Personally, I don't know enough about players outwith ICT and the SPL, so I won't comment on the standard of player we may or may not be looking at.  That's a job for the club to do and I will only comment in hindsight.  I also don't really give a toss where we look either.  I've seen enough players come to ICT from all other areas of football over our short history to realise that signings from lower leagues/teams can often prove more valuable than signing/loaning players from bigger leagues/teams - Fetai v Imrie anyone?

I have fears about next season, but they have very little to do with who we do or don't sign and more to do with the managers ability to get the best from whatever the final squad is.....so I won't be getting to upset or excited about anyone we might sign (or not) during the summer.

[mikeyrob73]

I cant comment on the player because I know nothing about him whatsoever but i see three positives in this "failure"

1. We seem to be actively looking at players.

2. We seem to be doing it quietly which gives us a chance not to get involved in bidding wars.

3. We are looking further afield than Ross County.

Tend to agree with 4ize in that we cannot afford to be looking down our noses at other teams. We all love ICT, we all think they are the best thing since sliced bread, and we can all be proud of what we have achieved since 1994 which culminated in getting to the highest level in our country. but lets have a reality check ... We may be in the "Premier League" ... but it is the Scottish Premier League and whether we like it or not, or are prepared to admit it or not, outside the big two, it is a very poor relation to most of the leagues in England and on a different planet when compared to the English Premiership.

For those who write a player off just because they come from a lower league, I have two words for you ....... Dougie Imrie

playing Junior Football not that long ago and now a regular starter for an SPL side .... His performances over the last few months also saw him shoot up the POY rankings that fans on here vote for based on performance ..... Sure, he is raw, but his talent can be worked upon and that seems to be happening. One of the things that made me question some of the doubts I have about Brewster was seeing how he cajoled, encouraged and coached him through the one game I saw in person this season ... If Brewster has the ability to spot a raw talent like Imrie (or someone else from lower leagues in England or Scotland) and then mould that talent into a decent player, then maybe, just maybe, we may actually prove to have a good coach on our hands ....

i think there is a world of difference between a coach and a manager scotty, and i dont think anyone would question his coaching abilities, whereas his man managment skills seem to be lacking

[Hiro]

For those who write a player off just because they come from a lower league, I have two words for you ....... Dougie Imrie

I agree with you Scotty and I don't really care where we sign our players from. The point I was trying to raise is that this player is slightly older, if he could really play at a higher level he would have been snapped up at a younger age surely. I don't agree with others on this thread saying that League 1 is of a similar level to the SPL because I'm afraid it's not. I've seen a couple of games live this season (Leeds as I was there on work) and the quality is pretty low. Much less emphasis on football ability than you would think and more on physicality.

[Scotty]

i think there is a world of difference between a coach and a manager scotty, and i dont think anyone would question his coaching abilities, whereas his man managment skills seem to be lacking

Thats why I used the word coach  :004:

[The Mantis]

I kind of share James' reservations and wonder why the guy reaches 27 and suddenly wakes up and becomes ambitious.

The trouble with people like Garry Thompson and Dougie Imrie, is not that they can't get a game for us (they obviously can), but that they're only good enough to play against the likes of the Midden and Falkirk. When I saw Imrie against the Hearts and Hibs I thought he was well out of his depth. And don't even get me started on Dean McDonald........  anybody who disagrees needs to get the rosy tinted glasses off and come and see us in away games. Teams like Motherwell have torn us a new ersehole this season.

[4ize]

I don't agree with others on this thread saying that League 1 is of a similar level to the SPL because I'm afraid it's not. I've seen a couple of games live this season (Leeds as I was there on work) and the quality is pretty low. Much less emphasis on football ability than you would think and more on physicality.

So, you went to Elland Road a couple of times and judged the footie to be bog-standard. It may well have been -  you see crappy, scrappy, spoiling football from sides in all leagues and divisions from time to time, especially from those going for a title (all aboard for Ibrox or Stamford Bridge!). But let me throw just two names at you - from another team I follow and who I therefore know about, because I'm not going to spend my Friday night trawling through stats  :016:. They're both from a fairly pedestrian League One club which has only been in the top flight for two seasons in the last 100 years. May I introduce:

Chris Killen - age 27

2004/5 (Oldham, League 1) 15 goals

2005/6 (Oldham, League 1) 6 goals (but only played half a season)

2006/7 (Hibs, SPL) 15 goals

2007/8 (Celtic, SPL) 2 goals (bought so they didn't have to play against him and left on the bench if lucky Heresy! Heresy!)

Did feck all with Wrexham, Port Vale and Oldham until he eventually came good in 2004, then publicly slated the manager and was released on a free. Now picking up splinters for a living in one of the two sides that could give a Championship/lower Premiership side a run for their money.

Chris Porter - age 24

2005/6 (Bury, League 2) 10 goals

2006/7 (Oldham, League 1) 22 goals (second top goal scorer)

2007/8 (Motherwell, SPL) 18 goals (third top goal scorer)

Brought on to the peak of his game under Sheridan, reputedly got a nice signing-on fee at Fir Park after FIFA rules meant that, despite his age, he was moving cross-border and therefore Latics were due no compensation.

If the SPL is such a step up from English League One, why didn't these players' goal tallies collapse the minute they set foot on Scottish turf in this superior league? If the answer isn't already smacking you about the head, it's unlikely ever to gain entry...

[4ize]

I kind of share James' reservations and wonder why the guy reaches 27 and suddenly wakes up and becomes ambitious.

The trouble with people like Garry Thompson and Dougie Imrie, is not that they can't get a game for us (they obviously can), but that they're only good enough to play against the likes of the Midden and Falkirk. When I saw Imrie against the Hearts and Hibs I thought he was well out of his depth. And don't even get me started on Dean McDonald........  anybody who disagrees needs to get the rosy tinted glasses off and come and see us in away games. Teams like Motherwell have torn us a new ersehole this season.

I'm guessing that you haven't seen Thompson play, whereas you have seen Imrie play; lumping them together with 'people like' then doesn't make sense, unless you can judge Thompson by watching Imrie (in which case I guess you can judge Tokely by watching Julian Clary).

[The Mantis]

Well by watching Tokely I know that Julian Clary has more pace......

Jeez, Gav, you're like a dug that's got hold of a rabbit: I surrender to your superior anorakishness. I'm sure every scout in the realm is mistaken and your 27 year old will go on to be the next Henrik Larsson, even beyond his peak.

You're right, of course: I should have left Thompson out of it (and nearly did). Right, I'm off, up at 6 tomorrow :010:

[4ize]

He's not my player by any chalk; the means by which he came to ICT's attention gives me no confidence at all in our scouting setup; I do, however, think he's an excellent footballer who would have brought something extraordinary to the team.

If I chase rabbits it's because they stand still in the headlights and go fnp fnp fnp.

If I point out the painful fact that League 1 away south is more or less the same as the SPL, and that bidding for English League 2 players is no shame, I make no apologies.

And Julian Clary only has more pace after he shouts 'Chase me': it's a bit like Popeye and spinach.

:003:

[Hiro]

I don't agree with others on this thread saying that League 1 is of a similar level to the SPL because I'm afraid it's not. I've seen a couple of games live this season (Leeds as I was there on work) and the quality is pretty low. Much less emphasis on football ability than you would think and more on physicality.

So, you went to Elland Road a couple of times and judged the footie to be bog-standard. It may well have been -  you see crappy, scrappy, spoiling football from sides in all leagues and divisions from time to time, especially from those going for a title (all aboard for Ibrox or Stamford Bridge!). But let me throw just two names at you - from another team I follow and who I therefore know about, because I'm not going to spend my Friday night trawling through stats  :016:. They're both from a fairly pedestrian League One club which has only been in the top flight for two seasons in the last 100 years. May I introduce:

Chris Killen - age 27

2004/5 (Oldham, League 1) 15 goals

2005/6 (Oldham, League 1) 6 goals (but only played half a season)

2006/7 (Hibs, SPL) 15 goals

2007/8 (Celtic, SPL) 2 goals (bought so they didn't have to play against him and left on the bench if lucky Heresy! Heresy!)

Did feck all with Wrexham, Port Vale and Oldham until he eventually came good in 2004, then publicly slated the manager and was released on a free. Now picking up splinters for a living in one of the two sides that could give a Championship/lower Premiership side a run for their money.

Chris Porter - age 24

2005/6 (Bury, League 2) 10 goals

2006/7 (Oldham, League 1) 22 goals (second top goal scorer)

2007/8 (Motherwell, SPL) 18 goals (third top goal scorer)

Brought on to the peak of his game under Sheridan, reputedly got a nice signing-on fee at Fir Park after FIFA rules meant that, despite his age, he was moving cross-border and therefore Latics were due no compensation.

If the SPL is such a step up from English League One, why didn't these players' goal tallies collapse the minute they set foot on Scottish turf in this superior league? If the answer isn't already smacking you about the head, it's unlikely ever to gain entry...

Although I have only seen a couple of teams from League 1 this season the fact is Leeds would have been comfortably promoted if they had not had the 15 point deduction. This to me suggests that they are one the best teams in the division and as such provide a decent benchmark for the overall quality.  Although it may be the particular games I went to see, Swindon in particular was bruutal.

The two players that you have highlighted to me actually prove my point about age being an important factor. Porter was 23 when he moved up to the SPL and Killen was 24. If a player was any older than 24/25 then you would have to wonder why they haven't stepped up a couple of levels. I wouldn't read too much into their respective scoring records, it can depend on the system etc. being played and sometimes players just socre no matter where they are. In Killen's case I think he just had a lucky streak, I think he is a woeful footballer but Porter I like a lot. Undoubtly there is quality in the lower leagues of England (and Scotland) and they would flourish in the SPL but it tends to be younger players who will make the step up. If you reach 25 or 26 without making your big move (i.e. up 2 divisions +) then the chances are you are not good enough.