Conspiracy theory?

[Hamish]

I was chatting with a pal today who has a theory that Israel's over-reaction to it's 2 soldiers being held by Hezbollah is deliberately designed to cause a much larger conflict, drawing Iran into a fight. I'm not sure if I agree or not but I can follow his line of argument. 'Best getting Iran sorted before they have nukes' I think were his words. And this way is less controversial than just invading or bombing Iran. Israel has already stated that Iran is supporting these 'militant' Palestinian groups. An old Chinese curse is 'May you live in interesting times' (although maybe something's lost in translation  :001:)

[Johnboy]

Hamish : Not sure if this is a sensible subject to debate on this forum - I thought WW3 was about to break out during your debate with Mee on musical tastes, etc... You might the following comments of interest...

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/george...tack_on_ir.html

[Hamish]

That link's very interesting. But surely we can have an intelligent, constructive debate on such issues without getting worked up into a frenzy?  :001:

[kaiser]

It's interesting to see how hard-line The Israelis  ( and US ) have become very quickly for what started  with a couple of kidnapped soldiers - it would be naive to think there is no other force driving it than the initial incident and customary Middle Eastern escalation...of course there is an agenda on the table , and on the front cover it simply reads " War on Terror " which these days gives the US and it's few remaining lapdogs carte blanche with any strategic initiatives they see fit.

It also seems the Syrians are lying quite low with most of the flak ( media wise ) aimed over their heads at the Iranians...it could prove dangerous to overlook them at this stage - don't forget the Syrians have serious historical issues with the territories involved and probably wouldn't mind getting their water supplies back...bet they'd love another Arab-Israeli war.

[Johnboy]

Fair comment, Kaiser.... Wasn't the US "War on Terror" a response to 9/11? That, along with the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, a one time close friend of the Bush family, seems to have been largely forgotten.....

I'm still not sure that this is a suitable subject for debate on this forum.... Wouldn't it be better to stick to subjects like Immortal Howden Ender's skid marked drawers, or F*tballers wife's voluptious breasts? Much safer ground..!!  :005: :005:

[kaiser]

Well whatever floats yer boat, as they say , but I'm not sure IHE's dirty duds or FW's norks are matters I'd want to get too immersed in... :010:

...I think WW3 is a safer bet. :003:

[f*ballers wife]

oh my!!!

i had no idea that my (OYO) were up for discussion..... but FEEL free!

(well, not free exactly, but dam reasonable!)

PERSONALLY, i think those chappies should have been in the pier in portree at the weekend, with the 'nuns on the run' with your very own mother superior (FWB!)

if any one group of people could sort out international relations..... they could!

:015: :015: :015:

[Kingsmills]

There's little doubt that the U.S.A are quite happy to stand back for just now and allow Israel to indulge in what is quite clearly a crime in international law.

[Guest airbornejake]

What Israel is doing, is exatly what we would do if some jumped up little sh*t* started firing rockets at us, and the Lebonese govt allowing those terrorists to roam freely, are getting there *** uppance. Just protecting there own.

[Johnboy]

What Israel is doing, is exatly what we would do if some jumped up little sh*t* started firing rockets at us, and the Lebonese govt allowing those terrorists to roam freely, are getting there *beep* uppance. Just protecting there own.

Do you mean we would wipe out over 300 innocent women & children in response? Get a fecking grip....

By all means target the fanatics..  but the whole of Lebanon does not deserve this.......

You disappoint me, Jake..... How much fecking brainwashing have you had today?

[Hamish]

I'd agree it certainly isn't as easy as Israel being the only aggressor. Hezbollah are not blameless in all this...

[Johnboy]

Hezbollah aren't blameless.... but was the Israeli response appropriate?

[Hamish]

I would say that on the face of it at least, Israel's response has been excessive. But, then again, none of us know exactly what's going on behind the scenes...

[Johnboy]

Israel's response is always excessive, Hamish.....

Jake : Hezbollah aren't terrorists... they are a political party who have much to do with running hospitals and Schools in Lebanon......

What do you think should have happened when the London bombers were identified as having come from the Beeston area of Leeds? Should Yorkshire have been blitzed?

Thats the kind of scale we've got going on here.......

[Johnboy]

I would say that on the face of it at least, Israel's response has been excessive. But, then again, none of us know exactly what's going on behind the scenes...

Don't you get pictures on Californian TV of blown up women & kids strewn around everywhere, Hamish?

Whatever is going on behind the scenes, nothing but nothing can possibly justify that..... Can it?

[Kingsmills]

There is no prospect of peace unles and until Israel returns all of the land that it is currently occupying without any right or justification.

[Guest airbornejake]

anyone who fires rockets specifically at civilian targets, and not at the military are terrorists. the only reason not many dead Israelis is more luck than judgment. when Iran have nukes hezbollah will do the deed for them its only a matter of time. so the sovereign state of Israel are only trying to protect themselves.

[Johnboy]

anyone who fires rockets specifically at civilian targets, and not at the military are terrorists. the only reason not many dead Israelis is more luck than judgment. when Iran have nukes hezbollah will do the deed for them its only a matter of time. so the sovereign state of Israel are only trying to protect themselves.

Jake : You know perfectly well why there are 25 times as many casualties in Lebanon as there are in Israel. You are not seriously telling me that it is more luck than judgement that has destroyed so much of Lebanon's infrastructure......

You'll be telling us next that Saddam Hussein had WMD capable of activation within 45 mins.....

Why don't you listen to your colleagues who are sick of all the bull5hit and who are desperately trying to get out the armed forces. You should seriously consider joining them......

[Guest airbornejake]

the Talaban were the legal govt of Afghanistan, but we seem quite happy to be rid of them. i am about to give up and become a civvy JB  but thats after 25 years of ar@@oles like the hezbollah, when you face tossers like that all your life you see it slightly differently than thousands of miles away on a TV screen. you and i will have to agree to disagree hope it doesent affect any future jokes. take care Jake

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[Johnboy]

I thought we (or the US) had got rid of the Taliban - but unfortunately it seems there are still quite a few of them around. I agree - they are complete nutters caught in a 2000 year old time warp..... the problem is they have a lot of support thanks to the aggression of the US since 9/11....

I honestly don't think comparisons should be made between Hezbullah and the Taliban, and I certainly don't think the whole of the Lebanon should have suffered the carnage that has been inflicted on them.... It's not that long ago that you & I both got upset about about kids getting beaten up in Scotland just for wearing England strips. Did the sight of toddlers lying in hospital beds in Beirut with their legs blown off not affect you....??

As you say - We'll have to agree to disagree....  I'm just sorry I haven't been able to persuade you that Israel's action (supported by Bush & Blair) could only be described as cruelly grotesque......

Also watching all that stuff from thousands of miles away on a TV screen doesn't really put you in the mood for telling jokes.....

[ictchris]

Israel was attacked, a terrorist group crossed into Israeli territory and took Israeli soldiers hostage.  What can they be expected to do in response?  The results of the war are terrible and it can certainly be said that Israel have responded harshly.  However, Hezbollah (like Hamas in the Gaza Strip) mingle with the civilian population, effectively using them as a human shield and often station their rockets in the basements of apartment buildings.  Israel has dropped leaflets warning civilian populations of upcoming strikes.  If Israel wanted to kill civilians they could certainly have killed more than several hundred in two weeks.  Hezbollah on the other hand fire Katushya missiles tipped with ball-bearings at Israeli cities and towns designed to cause maximum death and injury to any Israeli unlucky enough to get in the way.

Hezbollah aren't terrorists... they are a political party who have much to do with running hospitals and Schools in Lebanon......

True Hezbollah do run schools and hospitals in Lebanon as do Hamas in Gaza.  This doesn't mean their military wing isn't a terrorist group who have used suicide bombings and launch rockets at civilian populations though.  Considering that

This crisis highlights the underlying problem in the Israeli-Arab conflict - Israel wants to withdraw and disengage from the vast majority of the occupied territories (they have already packed up settlements in the West Bank and completely withdrawn from Gaza) but when Israel have done this terrorist organisations move into the breach and use these territories as launch pads for attacks on the Israeli population.  Israel cannot ignore these attacks.  I think the answer needs to be an international force to oversee the introduction of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank to ensure security.  Given taht such a force would not doubt the seen as 'occupiers' and subjected to attack I doubt there will be many nations queuing up for the job.

Another factor that may complicate the situation is that the political/security situation in Lebanon could deteriorate.  I think all indications are at the moment that most Lebanese are united but given the highly divided nature of the country Christian groups might start to resent being bombed as a result of the Shia Muslim's attacks on Israel.  There were some quotes in the Sunday papers from Lebanese Christians who weren't pleased with Hezbollah and weren't delighted to see Shia Muslim's who have been displaced by the violence moving into Christian areas.

[Hamish]

I would say that on the face of it at least, Israel's response has been excessive. But, then again, none of us know exactly what's going on behind the scenes...

Don't you get pictures on Californian TV of blown up women & kids strewn around everywhere, Hamish?

Whatever is going on behind the scenes, nothing but nothing can possibly justify that..... Can it?

Yes, it's quite horrific. But there are dead Israeis too. However, if there had been a totally unrestrained attack the deaths would be in the thousands. I'm not justifying what Israel's doing in any way but there does seem to be an automatic condemnation of them as soon as they respond in any way. It's a very complicated situation that is quite depressing to think about.

[Johnboy]

How crass a statement is that? Don't worry Hamish the death toll will soon reach 1000 and many more....

Bush & Blair should be demanding an immediate ceasefire.... not pussyfooting around saying -

"well - we'll have to talk about this -  maybe we can come up with a plan....." 

Right now, of course, they are both still supplying Israel with arms to allow the continuation of innocent men women & children to be blown to bits....

Jesus Christ..... Am I the only one that's angry about this?

[kaiser]

With regards to the air strikes and the carnage which has ensued , it will be viewed by the military staff as merely collateral damage and I'm sure our chief's of staff who were involved in Iraqi and Serbian air strikes will testify that these losses are a calculated risk worth taking , however the Hezbollah don't have access to the same array of weaponry and are supplied with whatever can be covertly moved to site which may be of varying degrees of suitability for that site...so when they hit back  they tend to use whatever they can to hit as hard as theycan. I don't think the Lebanese will be too enthusiastic about 'collateral' facts and figures , just as the Iraqi's and Serbs weren't.

[Hamish]

How crass a statement is that? Don't worry Hamish the death toll will soon reach 1000 and many more....

Bush & Blair should be demanding an immediate ceasefire.... not pussyfooting around saying -

"well - we'll have to talk about this -  maybe we can come up with a plan....." 

Right now, of course, they are both still supplying Israel with arms to allow the continuation of innocent men women & children to be blown to bits....

Jesus Christ..... Am I the only one that's angry about this?

I'm afraid the statement is a fact. Not a nice fact but a fact nonetheless. My general point is that the knee-jerk blaming of Israel in this is not very objective. Both sides are to blame for the current situation and it began well before the initial attack and kidnapping by Hezbollah.