Stadium ownership

[TheKnowledge]

Who owns the stadium, how much does it cost us to play there and what happens to the profits?

[PullMyFinger]

Who holds the lease on the estate?

[Johnboy]

If the club needed to borrow money from the bank, would it be possible for them to offer the stadium as security against a loan?

[Georgeios]

Awsome, the New Announcer thread was going way off topic, I think this is a fantastic Idea for a thread, and I hope it lights the fires to get answers eather way...

You want the truth??? YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!

[PullMyFinger]

Is this going to be a question and answer session without the answers?

Maybe a journalist could ask the people in the know for us? Please.

[TheKnowledge]

Is this going to be a question and answer session without the answers?

The people I figured would know most of the answers would be Caley D, Stevico, Charles Bannerman, and maybe alex Macleod. Just because this four seem to have the most knowledgeable answers when it comes to ICT internal dealings. Oh, reliably informed as well.

[CaleyD]

Anyone who wants to quote my posts from other threads in here is welcome to do so.

I simply don't have the time to get involved in another protracted discussion ahead of this weekends events.

[PullMyFinger]

Game on. :tonguecheek:

[Yngwie]

If the club needed to borrow money from the bank, would it be possible for them to offer the stadium as security against a loan?

No, the club lost its ability to do that when it sold the stadium to [insert name of whoever actually owns it now] many years ago. You can only sell the family silver once, it's your get out of jail card and we've played ours.

On the face of it there was nothing at all wrong in principle with doing a "sale and leaseback" of the stadium. Would you rather have (say) ?2m in cash or have a ?2m stadium? The answer to that gets a lot easier if you add in that the bank requires you to repay ?2m of debt or you go out of business.

[PullMyFinger]

Sept 6 2008

Hiro replying to CaleyD in "Who owns TCS"

CaleyD

I only ask because I've been trying to solve the riddle that is Stadium Ownership for some time now. I was under the belief that the ownership of the stadium had passed to the new Trust which was set up with charitable status to reduce the interest/tax etc on the debt and better facilitate it's repayment via rent received from the club, but that doesn't seem to fit with what appears to be going on in the background.

For a start, the Trust that was set up is now a Dormant Company which means that if it still owns the stadium then it can't be receiving anything by way of am ongoing market rent....yet the club is still paying rent.

There's certain documents online with the Highland Council saying that loans that had originally been set up in the name of the Trust had been transferred to a new property company (Inverness Caledonian Thistle Property (2004) Ltd) which was set up to manage the new stands. It would appear however that they do not hold ownership of the stands as they "Sub-lease" them to the club....which means that they are leasing them from another company (possibly Inverness Caledonian Thistle Property Ltd...note the missing 2004, which means it is a separate company). Both these companies would appear to have no connection to ICT and are owned either in whole, or in large by Tullochs/Inverness Holdings.

I also noted from this years accounts that the club only have a 50% stake in Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd (yet another different company), when last year they had 100%...and on doing a little investigating the other 50% now appears to be owned by Tullochs/Inverness Holdings.

So that's 4 companies....

Caledonian Thistle Properties

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties (2004)

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust

...that all seem to have a finger in the pie of stadium related property, but I have no idea which "bit" of property might belong to each. It would also seem that whilst the club are paying rent (which has increased by ?39,500 between last years accounts and this years) but that money doesn't seem to be making it's way back to the company which was originally set up to deal with the debt.

So, who owns the property/lease? Who owns the Debt? And who are we paying rent to?

I had kinda envisaged us paying off the debt (indirectly via rent) and perhaps purchasing the stadium back at some point, or that if we were to move then the debt would be cleared and their would be enough money left to set us up in a nice new stadium and be debt free....with the hope that we might be left a little in the bank to play with.

However, it would seem that one of two companies owned by Tullochs/Inverness Holdings would be the ones to profit from the sale of the remainder of the lease at our current location. Anything that the club might see from such a deal would be entirely down to good will.....which makes me a little uncomfortable. Not to mention the fact that it makes the club itself practically worthless in terms of attracting anything by way of substantial investment.

I'm not suggesting anything underhand or improper, and we could spend forever going through discussing the merits of every possible scenario, but all I'm really interested in is if anyone can add any facts to the above or point out where I have definitely made an error.

Hiro

Hmmm.... it's alla bit confusing. I've just had a poke around companies house online database and there's some interesting things on there re: the above companies.

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust has never done anything. Never filed active accounts and the property and loans were never transferred into the company. Instead it appears that they were transferred into Inverness Caledonian Thistle properties Ltd. I can only hazard a guess but this company cropped up at the same time as the property appears as a disposal in the football club accounts. The only thing that puzzles me is that the Stadium lease appears to be a current asset (Work In Progress) until 2005 when it was transferred to being a tangible fixed asset. Furthermore, its under the category of Freehold land now and not Freehold property as I would expect. Interestingly, the registered address of this company is Stoneyfield House - i.e. Tullochs and it's 3 directors are David Sutherland, C Di Ciacca and Alyson Marshall. As you would expect the company is loss making with ?50k rent from the club and ?200k of loan interest to service.

Aaah. I have just seen who owns the share capital of this Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd - Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust Ltd. Basically the trust does own the stadium and debt - just indirectly. The club also have a 50% share in the trust and so indirectly retain part ownership of the stadium.

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties (2004) Ltd is a different matter. It owns the new stands (secured by a debt to Tullochs) and has then same listed directors. The parent company however is Slackbuie Ltd which owns 100% of the share capital. Essentially - The club have no ownership or right to the new stands.

[stevico1]

Is this going to be a question and answer session without the answers?

The people I figured would know most of the answers would be Caley D, Stevico, Charles Bannerman, and maybe alex Macleod. Just because this four seem to have the most knowledgeable answers when it comes to ICT internal dealings. Oh, reliably informed as well.

Sorry Knowledge its not a subject I know a lot about, that just leaves Alex and Mr Bannerman

Edited February 2, 2010 by stevico1

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Not sure Alex would be of much use but Charles could be .

[Charles Bannerman]

Is this going to be a question and answer session without the answers?

The people I figured would know most of the answers would be Caley D, Stevico, Charles Bannerman, and maybe alex Macleod. Just because this four seem to have the most knowledgeable answers when it comes to ICT internal dealings. Oh, reliably informed as well.

Folks.... I have over the years, to avoid any clash of interest, consistently declined to become involved in a number of areas on these forums. Those which I avoid here include:-

1) Matters relating to other clubs. (I sometimes make exceptions in the case of Clach in which many ICT fans have a genuine interest and which is not a direct rival of ICT, but only subject to 2) and 5) below)

2) Divulging news such as the Barrowman deal last night before I get it out myself on the BBC.

3) Commenting on players or any other club staff.

4) Commenting on what have become "running stories" relating to internal or indeed external ICT politics.

5) Commenting on any potentially controversial matter relating to Highland Council who are my day job employers.

As a result you will see that my profile quotes "Memories" as my most frequently contributed to forum!

In the case of 4), a judgement sometimes has to be made as to when something ceases to be a matter of chat on these forums and has become, or has potentially become, a running story. In the case of this "stadium ownership" business, I made that judgement towards the end of last week, at which point I challenged Donald to plead his case in a more public domain than these forums and then withdrew from any further comment. The events of the last four or five days ago appear to suggest that my judgement last week may well have been correct.

I am not therefore in a position to make comment on what seems to have become an issue within ICT or a section of its fans, except that I think I could confirm to Johnboy that since around 2001 ICT has not owned the stadium nor the lease for the land and could not therefore offer either as security.

And at that point - I hold my peace.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[PullMyFinger]

Nov 15 2008

CaleyD

Can't say I was overly surprised by the (non) response to my question regarding stadium ownership/lease.

I'm not denying that the club got themselves out of a hole by selling the club, what I am questioning is the fact that when this was done we were led to believe that the new owners would be a charitable trust and not a company which is all but owned and controlled by a single person.

As I've stated before, the proposal of using a Charitable Trust appealed to people and gained favour because we were led to believe that once the Trust got into a position where debt was cleared then it would act for the benefit of the footballing and sports community. In short, we sold the club on the cheap on the basis that their might be some long term benefit for everyone. As it now appears, the club was, IMO, stolen from under our noses and put into private hands.

If the club are not willing to answer the question as to why this happened, then perhaps I should now direct my enquiries to the higher profile public figures who make up the Board of the Dormant Trust (which was suppose to receive stadium ownership) to ask why they have remained tight lipped on the affair, but are quite happy that their membership of that board be used on CV's and in public as some kind of status symbol? In fact, why does the Trust continue to exist at all, if not as an attempt to maintain the smokescreen?

As I understand it, the Trust Board Members have and may still include a number of influential local businessmen, councillors, an ex provost and a member of the Scottish Parliament.

[PullMyFinger]

Nov 20 2008

CaleyD

The lease already has transferred Alex (to a company owned and controlled by Sutherland) and there's been numerous enquiries made about changing the designated use for the land so as to allow the developer who now owns it to make a few quid from it.

When this eventually happens (and it will, I'd bet every penny I have on it) then it won't be ICT who benefit, nor indeed will it be the Charitable Trust we were led to believe were taking ownership.....it will be David Sutherland, and he'll do so by a factor of 10 (or more) on what he originally paid for it.

[caley100]

Just as we have all been suspicious of for the last few years... ICT / TCS / New stands / ground lease are all D Sutherlands toys, and boy does he not like anyone interfering with his game.

[SMEE]

I have mentioned many times over the years the Mr Sutherland is not quite the hero some think he is. Make no mistake about it....he is an out and out businessman. His involvement with ICT is for his own financial gain. He is sitting tight until the percieved best time to act....then be assured...the TCS will be no more!

[PullMyFinger]

Investment is the word you are looking for, not toys.

I am not sure that it really matters who actually owns the property as long as we have a reasonable rent that allows us to continue operating as a football club.

If the rent is causing the club financial difficulties then David Sutherland has a conflict of interest. Major shareholder vs Landlord. What would serve David Sutherlands financial ambitions best may not serve his own best interests.

As the value of the estate rises (and it will continue to do so) so shall the potential rent, eventually the club could fold and the stadium & surrounding lands lease be developed or sold on. What I'd like to see is a statement from David Sutherland about his plans for ICT over the next ten years, five years or even five months for that matter.

[Johnboy]

What I'd like to see is a statement from David Sutherland about his plans for ICT over the next ten years, five years or even five months for that matter.

Wouldn't we all....

And is it a lot to expect, or to ask for?

[Pele_Is_God]

You've hit the nail right on the head in your last paragraph. We need to know what direction we are heading in... won't hold my breath though!

[gordyfromsneck]

Let the Carve-Up begin!!

Noses to the trough lads, it's only public money!!

[ictchris]

How long is the lease that the club has on the ground and who is it held with? Also, I recall in 2002/03 a planning application was made by Asda to build a supermarket on part of the ground, which was rejected by the Council. Surely this would have a bearing on any potential development at the stadium site.

[TheKnowledge]

Let the Carve-Up begin!!

Noses to the trough lads, it's only public money!!

Shady nagosh!

[PullMyFinger]

Let the Carve-Up begin!!

Noses to the trough lads, it's only public money!!

As I understand it, this is not the land surrounding the stadium but to the west of the Kessock Bridge. Mr Catto certainly scored with this deal and it would also be easier to relax any limitations on the use of the stadium land.

[Hiro]

Sept 6 2008

Hiro

Hmmm.... it's alla bit confusing. I've just had a poke around companies house online database and there's some interesting things on there re: the above companies.

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust has never done anything. Never filed active accounts and the property and loans were never transferred into the company. Instead it appears that they were transferred into Inverness Caledonian Thistle properties Ltd. I can only hazard a guess but this company cropped up at the same time as the property appears as a disposal in the football club accounts. The only thing that puzzles me is that the Stadium lease appears to be a current asset (Work In Progress) until 2005 when it was transferred to being a tangible fixed asset. Furthermore, its under the category of Freehold land now and not Freehold property as I would expect. Interestingly, the registered address of this company is Stoneyfield House - i.e. Tullochs and it's 3 directors are David Sutherland, C Di Ciacca and Alyson Marshall. As you would expect the company is loss making with ?50k rent from the club and ?200k of loan interest to service.

Aaah. I have just seen who owns the share capital of this Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd - Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust Ltd. Basically the trust does own the stadium and debt - just indirectly. The club also have a 50% share in the trust and so indirectly retain part ownership of the stadium.

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Properties (2004) Ltd is a different matter. It owns the new stands (secured by a debt to Tullochs) and has then same listed directors. The parent company however is Slackbuie Ltd which owns 100% of the share capital. Essentially - The club have no ownership or right to the new stands.

I'll need to have another poke around because I never followed all of that up properly.......