ICT -V- Hearts : Matchday Thread

[lukemackay]

why are players expected to be professional when officials arnt full time match officials is the way forward screw the day job refs start rteading the rule book

[AndrewLloyd]

why are players expected to be professional when officials arnt full time match officials is the way forward screw the day job refs start rteading the rule book

I was not at yesterday's game so cannot comment on the performance of the match officials. I did pose a challenge after I witnessed the last shocking display by a referee (away at Dundee United) as to why the SFA/SPL persists in appointing referees who have the potential conflict of interest of officating a game in which their home town team is playing. At Tannadice a quick post-match Google revealed that the referee had been born in Dundee. Yesterday's referee, Crawford Allan, is from Edinburgh!

I do not know Crawford Allan. I'm sure that he is a man of the utmost integrity (he works for RBS after all ). My issue is not with him it is with the SFA.

The SPL rules simply state that "The Referee, Assistant Referees and reserve official for League Matches shall be appointed by the SFA from the Lists of Class 1 Match Officials". The SFA web site says nothing about how match officials are actually appointed.

In England the FA rules require that the referee's registration is held by their local Parent Association ("A Referee must be registered with The Association through the Affiliated Association withinthe area in which the Referee resides, which will be deemed that referee's ParentAssociation (or County)"). There does not appear to be anything in the English Premier League or FA rules to prevent a Class 1 official being appointed to officiate a Premier League game in his/her Parent Association area. That said I doubt that you'd often see Howard Webb officiating at a game in Rotherham (when he's from) or in South Yorkshire in general (where he's registered).

The FA rules do however place a conflict of interest obligation on the referee "A Referee shall at all times act impartially. Where a Referee believes that there is a materialinterest conflicting with the duties and obligations of a Match Official and any appointment,then the Referee shall decline to act or officiate and declare it to the appointing authority". I'm fairly sure that being a supporter of or being from the same town as a club has significant conflict of interest potential. Surely we should be applying a similar conflict of interest test for SPL games?

Our referees have a tough job to do. It is frequently made all the harder to do when fans, players, coaches & managers, club directors and QCs ratchet up the pressure. The SFA (or SPL) should do them a favour and remove the suggestion of impartiality by eliminating this obvious conflict of interest.

[12th Man]

What a start to the game, unbelievable, ICT were playing so well you would have actually thought you were watching an EPL team take on Hearts, what a faultless, professional,creative and well organized team performance.

Really looking forward to the next game and Hamilton have done us a wee favor today by beating Hibs too.

More training required for officials though.

[Huisdean]

Good game and performance today but totally spoilt, yet again, by poor refereeing. We keep hearing about why it is important to respect refereees but after todays performance you can see why the respect breaks down. Most people will accept that referees have a hard job ane will not get every decision correct but the majority of referees seem incapable of getting simple decisions correct and there can be no excuse for that. This is not just a moan that refs have it in for ICT, Celtic's second penalty against Aberdeen today was a horrendous decision, so bad that even Murdo McLeoad said it was not aa penalty!. Something seriously must be done to improve referees performances as they are only making it worse for themselves by their abject displays. That goes for the linemen as well with some absolute howlers from both linesmen today.

On a slightly different note, was very disappointed with Heart's attitude today. Players went down very easily and conned the referee, this led to Tokely's first booking which should not have happened. As for the Hearts number 7, Souso Santana(?), he should have been bokked for blatant play acting and diving but nothing happened. Ian Black was also lucky to stay on the pitch as he continued to kick/throw the ball away after he had been booked but no action was taken. Some ref's would have sent players off for that. Not saying it is right or wrong but where is the consistency.

[gingerjaggy]

i really enjoyed yesterdays game really entertaining both teams went for a win and on the whole i think we deserved all 3 points. Hats off to Richie Foran who was superb and very unlucky that his header that i thought may have crossed the line didnt count. Poor Rosco we really was done by a poor ref yesterday no complaints for the second yellow but the first what was that all about. Ryan again was fantastic in goal making a brilliant save at 1-1 in the second half. Shame we couldnt have played like that more often during this period after christmas otherwise we would be playing hearts again not hamilton.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

Lots of positives to take from the performance, particularly the bright start. Smashing build-up prior to an excellent finish by Doran.

Hearts came back all guns blazing in the second half and the draw was probably a fair result.

As for Crawford Allan, it seems that every week I feel that the ref is "the worst one we've ever seen up here". Mr Allan is the new title holder. As for the standside linesman, I wouldn't urinate on him if he was on fire.

[caley100]

Just viewed the highlights, looked like the ball was over the line which webster cleared, but to rely on the standside linesman to notice it over would have been a miracle as was the most clueless **** ever to run the line.

Crawford Allan was so inept it was stunning, where do they get these clowns from? Rossco's first was not a yellow, Black made 3-4 similar fouls before he was shown a yellow, now they want respect?

Anyway it was a very good game, pity about the ref because it could have been a great game.

Foran was brill, Ryan had two great saves, Cox did well, nice to see Gillet back but he needs more games as he didnt look all that sharp - hope they keep him for next season.

Boy wonder nick looked out of touch for most of the game, apart from a couple of runs and his poor attempt from Rooneys cutback he didnt do a lot.

[RiG]

Crawford Allan was so inept it was stunning, where do they get these clowns from? Rossco's first was not a yellow, Black made 3-4 similar fouls before he was shown a yellow, now they want respect?

He was utterly atrocious. If I performed that badly at my job then I would be fired. It took Skacel crying like a little girl to convince him to book Tokely for that first "challenge". No complaints for the second yellow but his first booking was wholly unjustifiable. For the record, it took Ian Black 6 (SIX!) fouls and a mouthful of abuse to Allan to get himself a booking. Where's the consistency? The throw in farce in the second half involving the stand side linesman beggared belief as did the subsequent handball which he somehow missed. I did also enjoy Hearts taking that other thrown in a good 10 - 15 yards further along from where the ball went out. If these guys can't be consistent and good at their jobs then just f**k off because you're spoiling the game for the fans and players.

[Donview]

If the rules had been applied black would have been sent off three times in the last ten minutes..............for simply kicking the ball away, unbelievable how he just kept rubbing the "edinburgh" Referee's nose in it with no retribution.

In all my years watching senior football I have never witnessed such an inept performance from match officials. You would normally expect this blatant leaning against old firm opposition, not their clones from the east.

Never have I seen so many sweetie paper rustlers in the main stand getting on their feet and giving the officials pelters complete with Kessock type expletives to boot.

[MabawswaRichie]

First of all, my language was rather shocking yesterday, the C word was used quite often and for that I find myself cringing. My use of the word was directed purely at the ref for his disgusting performance yesterday.

The 2 stand outs for me was the first Tokely booking, which wasn't even a foul. The second was the Hearts goal. Kenny put the ball out and it rolled about 15 yards down field, where by Thomson picked it up and threw it to Suso to cut back to Elliot. Now I don't usually mind a few extra yards being gained, but the throw was taken a full 15 yards down field from where the ball went out and as a result our defence weren't in position to defend the throw and Suso was able to cut it back.

Just watching it back on the highlights there, none of our players are in position as (I hope) they were assuming Thomson would have picked the ball up and go back to where it went out.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

Yeah, the highlights make the Hearts equalizer look pretty embarrassing for the ref. Why on earth did he blow his whistle if not to stop play? No-one normally blows for a routine throw in. Thomson really does steal about 15 yards.

What's Crawford Allan's day job? Circus clown?

You know how Bougherra got fined ?2,500 for manhandling Calum Murray? How about we all club together to pay the fine so Rossco can have a good grapple with the ref the next time he officiates up here?

[AJS]

Having looked at the highlights anyone else reckon Foran's header was over the line? Could simply add it to the number of other screwed up decisions that Allan and co got wrong.

Having read some of the morning papers it seems like Crawford Allan wasn't the only ref in Scotland coming in for serious criticism.

Edited April 18, 2011 by ajsict92

[old caley girl]

Having looked at the highlights anyone else reckon Foran's header was over the line? Could simply add it to the number of other screwed up decisions that Allan and co got wrong.

Having read some of the morning papers it seems like Crawford Allan wasn't the only ref in Scotland coming in for serious criticism.

Looked a foot over the line to me!

[Scotty]

At Tannadice a quick post-match Google revealed that the referee had been born in Dundee. Yesterday's referee, Crawford Allan, is from Edinburgh! I do not know Crawford Allan. I'm sure that he is a man of the utmost integrity (he works for RBS after all ). My issue is not with him it is with the SFA.

Lets face facts, Scotland is a small country in terms of land mass and given the population distribution you are going to get what might on the face of it appear to be a disproportionate amount of refs from Edinburgh / Glasgow. After that you might get Aberdeen / Dundee based ones and then maybe, just maybe the odd one from Inverness or the Highlands. Not sure if Inverness has had any grade 1 officials since Kevin Bissett but even when Kevin was an active referee there were not a huge number of refs in the Highlands capable of making it to grade 1 and the refs association was always struggling to encourage more to take part. I would say this is probably reflected in other parts of the country too.

As for biased officiating .... I think it sometimes works the other way .... Refs who come from an area near to one of the teams they referee tend to go harder against that team as if they feel the need to prove they are not biased. However, bias or not, ineptitude and lack of consistency is the biggest problem, not bias (no matter how much Mr Lennon insists on this).

I have just completed the processing of the highlights video and its now up on ictfc.com and totally agree about the performance of this particular ref, but I would probably say he's not biased ... just bloody crap !! There were a number of goal line clearances (for both sides) and any one or more of these could have been given as a goal. In those instances, that is where he needs to rely on his assistants. If they are mince too then he's S.O.L. !!!

The first booking for Tokely was 100% not a booking and the second might have merited a yellow (for persistent fouling perhaps) if he had not already been booked, it certainly did not merit a second yellow and most refs in that situation might have said "big man your already on a yellow, so I'm not booking your for this one, but no more".

The throw in that led to the goal was a piece of nonsense and should have been called back. The players had stopped for the whistle. Having said that, it was a soft goal and we should have done better. We almost lost another goal to an almost identical move a short time later.

Blackie is Blackie ... he hasnt changed, pushing, pulling, cynical wee fouls and a mouth on him the size of the Forth estuary. He should have been booked earlier, but we know from experience that he can get away with things ..... we enjoyed that fact for a long time !

Overall either team would have won and I am happy with a point against the 3rd best team in the country. I would have been happier with all 3, but over the course of the whole match, and taking dodgy decisions out of it, a draw was probably fair. We dominated most of the first half, they did the same in the second and as the game wore on either team could have sneaked it.

Incidentally: on the subject of refs ..... dont get me started ! MLS referees make the guys in Scotland look like the best in the world !

Two Toronto games this past week and in the first one (Vs Beckham and LA Galaxy on Wed), we got a ref who had officiated 3 games so far this season and had issued 19 yellows, 1 red, and averaged 30 free-kicks per game. After that game his tally for 4 games was up to 24 yellows, 2 reds, and he awarded another 28 free kicks in a match that was not dirty in the slightest. Beckham was booked for the 5th time in 6 games and became the first player in MLS this season to serve a 1 game ban for yellows. He came out after the game and attacked the standard of refereeing - and much as I didnt want to agree with him, I had to. His booking in our game was complete bull**** and so were about 3 others. The red too was nonsense just like Tokely's.

In our second game of the week (Saturday), we got a ref who had never officiated in MLS before and for the first hour or so he was decent. He let a lot of hefty challenges go, the game was flowing (even if TFC were losing) and he was on target to get pass marks, then he lost the plot and truly became an MLS referee - 2 or 3 yellows, some weird decisions and an unmerited straight red for a Toronto player. End result ... yet another MLS referee who needs a police escort off the pitch in Toronto !

[AndrewLloyd]

At Tannadice a quick post-match Google revealed that the referee had been born in Dundee. Yesterday's referee, Crawford Allan, is from Edinburgh! I do not know Crawford Allan. I'm sure that he is a man of the utmost integrity (he works for RBS after all ). My issue is not with him it is with the SFA.

Lets face facts, Scotland is a small country in terms of land mass and given the population distribution you are going to get what might on the face of it appear to be a disproportionate amount of refs from Edinburgh / Glasgow.

There are two obvious remedies to this:

1. Ensure that the onus is in the match officials to declare a conflict of interest when they're invited to officiate in a game. As my earlier post confirmed, this is what they must do in England.

2. To ask the officials to declare an interest in a club (ideally in public) rather than a) nothing as they do in Scotland or b) a region/city as they do in England.

I understand that #2 was mooted before and rejected by either the SFA or by the referees themselves. Whilst it may be a cynical view, in a country where a high proportion of supporters must (by definition of their weekly gate) support one of the Old Firm it may be that our officials are unwilling to declare an alligience to Rangers or Celtic as they'll never have the "prestige" of officiating in one of their games?

Neither option is a solution to apparent lack of comptence or capability which appears to be the larger issue...

[Scotty]

1. But what exactly is a conflict of interest? Is it one when they are a card carrying supporter of a particular team? if so, then yes I agree, they should not officiate a game involving that team. However, if you start to base it on the fact that they were born in a particular town/city or that they may have once - perhaps in their youth - gone along to watch a particular team then I dont think its needed. What type of service they go to on a Sunday would also be irrelevant !

2. I believe Celtic did try to get refs to state certain things publicly this year and it was quite rightly shot down in flames. It does not matter whether they go to mass or go to a sunday morning service ... As far as I am aware no-one has proven any ref in this country to have an ongoing bias towards or against any team.

As far as I see it, the biggest issue with refs is lack of ability and lack of consistency.

For me it is the inconsistency that is more worrying. Whilst there may be the odd ref who truly is awful, I do not believe every single ref in the country has a lower level of capability than his predecessors, instead I believe that we the supporters have vastly increased expectations of them. With the increase in TV coverage and the advance in TV technology to a point where you can pause or rewind live TV, every armchair pundit now knows the ref made a bad decision almost before he does.

Whats more, the ref is no longer allowed to make an 'honest' mistake in a situation where he has a split second to make a decision based on a view of the action that (unlike fans at a higher elevation in the stands) may be blocked by other players .... Refs dont make mistakes any more - we have seen to that .... according to us they make decisions based on a conspiracy of their support for the other team or because they are a certain religion !!!!!

When it comes to consistency, thats the bugbear for me whether it is in the SPL or the MLS. We read it on here every week and it is multiplied across almost every forum for every team, and its not exclusive to Scotland !!! ... crap ref this, bad decision that, but most of peoples arguments are 'Player A' did this and got away with it while 'Player B' got a card for a lot less. Its the inconsistency of decisions rather than the actual decisions themselves that should be the first thing addressed but that will never happen until the referees association (and the SPL/SFL/SFA) stop regarding referees reports as 100% gospel and 'protected' and until certain teams stop going several steps further than criticism and into vilification of the refs.

For me, the answer is to find a balance between what we can do in terms of technology and what we cant do. Our expectations are higher because of technology so I dont see the issue in using it to increase the performance of officials. I do not want to see football end up like American Football with all the stop-start stuff but if we can equip officials with headsets to talk to each other during a game then thats one way to make sure decisions are quick and easy, and if we can install goal-line technology that works, then thats another. If a ref is about to award a penalty or red card to someone I also do not see the problem in the 4th official (or perhaps a 5th official) having a simple tv box in the press area that he can be reviewing as the decision is being made so he can say "no red just yellow" or "yes penalty". It wont slow or stop the game and may help confirm a decision from a better vantage point.

[+Fraz]

I don't think that there is any conspiracy from referees, however the lack of transparency and deafening silence only helps to perpetuate such theories. Would it be so terrible that refs explained the big contentious decisions like the throw-in leading to the goal on Saturday? Also (as far as I know) the public never see the reports that are made on refs performance, why not? It seems that they are virtually untouchable, no punishment or demotion in grade etc for regular mistakes.

Most level minded people realise that everyone makes mistakes, but it's the lack of action taken to mitigate these mistakes that many folk get peeved at. As we are paying to see a product that can be partly ruined on bad officiating people have the right to complain and see improvements. If you paid for broadband and every single Saturday night it went off for 5 hours only to be told 'Well that's Steve's shift everyone makes mistakes, what can you do? ' You would get pretty pi**ed after a while.

I agree with you Scotty that it would be good to see some technology used to help refs make the big calls. However one thing that could be done right now and at no extra cost to help refs would be for linesmen to man up and help make some decisions. As far as I can see they do virtually nothing aside from make the odd offside call. I've lost count of the times that they shy away from making a decision on something as simple as a throw in until the ref has and then they just follow suit.

[gingerjaggy]

in the record rooney and foran both claim it went a foot over the line i think rooney would know as he was there to bundle it in

[RiG]

Also (as far as I know) the public never see the reports that are made on refs performance, why not? It seems that they are virtually untouchable, no punishment or demotion in grade etc for regular mistakes.

You could try an FOI request to the SFA?

[+Tree]

You could try an FOI request to the SFA?

The SFA are not a Public Body

[FoolPhysio]

. . . . However one thing that could be done right now and at no extra cost to help refs would be for linesmen to man up and help make some decisions. As far as I can see they do virtually nothing aside from make the odd offside call. I've lost count of the times that they shy away from making a decision on something as simple as a throw in until the ref has and then they just follow suit.

For the record, the assistant referee is restricted under Law 6 to what they may do, but the actual application at each match will be under the direction of the Referee who retains absolute responsibility and authority throughout (Law 5).

Law 6

Two assistant referees may be appointed whose duties, subject to the decision of the referee, are to indicate:

• when the whole of the ball leaves the fi eld of play

• which team is entitled to a corner kick, goal kick or throw-in

• when a player may be penalised for being in an offside position

• when a substitution is requested

• when misconduct or any other incident occurs out of the view of the referee

• when offences have been committed whenever the assistant referees have a better view than the referee (this includes, in certain circumstances, offences committed in the penalty area)

• whether, at penalty kicks, the goalkeeper moves off the goal line before the ball is kicked and if the ball crosses the line

Assistance

The assistant referees also assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game. In particular, they may enter the field of play to help control the 9.15 m (10 yds) distance. In the event of undue interference or improper conduct, the referee will

relieve an assistant referee of his duties and make a report to the appropriate authorities.

This explains why an assistant who will indicate fouls on the pitch one week will not do the same the following week - it depends on the brief that they get given by the Ref before the game. So just because they can have the roles and responsibilities outlined in Law 6, does not mean that the Referee has given them the authority to use it. They could, for example, be restricted to offsides, ball over the line and substitutions.

Remember, these people are qualified referees in their own right but may be under training for the higher leagues by having this support role, although some are happy to remain as assistants as their area of "specialisation". When I left, the SFA were developing a system where you had to chose to become one or the other, but I am not sure if that system is still in place.

Regarding waiting for the Ref to indicate the direction of a throw-in or goal/corner kick, this may also be part of the direction but could equally be that the assistant did not actually see it and believes the Ref did, but if neither saw it or are both unsure, the Ref has the responsibility to make that call. When I refereed, that was the brief I gave - if you are certain then raise your flag and I will indicate, if not, wait on my call and raise to support. If I give it one way and you are certain it is wrong, raise and hold and I will change.

Edited April 19, 2011 by FoolPhysio

[ictchris]

Hopefully Neil Lennon or Dr Death calls the refs bigoted again and we get the foreign lads back, they were much better.

[+Fraz]

. . . . However one thing that could be done right now and at no extra cost to help refs would be for linesmen to man up and help make some decisions. As far as I can see they do virtually nothing aside from make the odd offside call. I've lost count of the times that they shy away from making a decision on something as simple as a throw in until the ref has and then they just follow suit.

For the record, the assistant referee is restricted under Law 6 to what they may do, but the actual application at each match will be under the direction of the Referee who retains absolute responsibility and authority throughout (Law 5).

Law 6

Two assistant referees may be appointed whose duties, subject to the decision of the referee, are to indicate:

? when the whole of the ball leaves the fi eld of play

? which team is entitled to a corner kick, goal kick or throw-in

? when a player may be penalised for being in an offside position

? when a substitution is requested

? when misconduct or any other incident occurs out of the view of the referee

? when offences have been committed whenever the assistant referees have a better view than the referee (this includes, in certain circumstances, offences committed in the penalty area)

? whether, at penalty kicks, the goalkeeper moves off the goal line before the ball is kicked and if the ball crosses the line

Assistance

The assistant referees also assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game. In particular, they may enter the field of play to help control the 9.15 m (10 yds) distance. In the event of undue interference or improper conduct, the referee will

relieve an assistant referee of his duties and make a report to the appropriate authorities.

This explains why an assistant who will indicate fouls on the pitch one week will not do the same the following week - it depends on the brief that they get given by the Ref before the game. So just because they can have the roles and responsibilities outlined in Law 6, does not mean that the Referee has given them the authority to use it. They could, for example, be restricted to offsides, ball over the line and substitutions.

Remember, these people are qualified referees in their own right but may be under training for the higher leagues by having this support role, although some are happy to remain as assistants as their area of "specialisation". When I left, the SFA were developing a system where you had to chose to become one or the other, but I am not sure if that system is still in place.

Regarding waiting for the Ref to indicate the direction of a throw-in or goal/corner kick, this may also be part of the direction but could equally be that the assistant did not actually see it and believes the Ref did, but if neither saw it or are both unsure, the Ref has the responsibility to make that call. When I refereed, that was the brief I gave - if you are certain then raise your flag and I will indicate, if not, wait on my call and raise to support. If I give it one way and you are certain it is wrong, raise and hold and I will change.

I have to admit I never realised this, thanks for the info.

I have always presumed that the assistant refs duties and responsibilities (and limits therein) were standard from match to match so as everybody's role's were crystal clear. As this would seem to be the most straightforward way to do it. I realise that the ref has the final say in all matters but I honestly cannot remember the last time when I've been at a game where an assistant has disagreed with the refs decision. Theres no way that they happen see all the refs correct decisions but miss all the wrong ones! If they don't know what happened fair enough.

Are there really refs out there who say "I don't want you two to indicate if there is an offence commited that I miss or judge wrongly, just leave it please"? IMO not letting your assistants 'assist' fully in order to make the game as fair as possible would be quite frankly ridiculous.

Maybe I should have gone onto referee training like my old PE teacher Mr Clark said I should!

[Scarlet Pimple]

SCotty

I read your comments on the MLS refs. From what I saw right from the start of the season it was about even stevens with the first two refs being excellent, -- they did not call every petty foul and let the play flow which usually works. The refs always looked in command and did not react hysterically when giving a decision.Hence the players got the message that they were here to play the game and not fark around or flop around.

The only ref that I found wanting really was sa dark-skinned mature-looking fella from New Mexico or at least Southern California etc who blewhis whistle every time someone bent over to cough. He dished out so many yellow and red cards that even the players were baffled as to who was supposed to be on the park or what they must do,or not do, to avoid getting a whistle. And why, despite what the rules say, did he send off a dummy who took his shirt off to throw it into the crowd after he had scored a great goal and the crowd were going bonkers. He was wearing another shirt under it so maybe he had prepared himself in advance but how could anyone be offended?His sending off reduced the Whitecaps to ten men and they had a heroic task ahead of then after that.Also they lost that player for the next game and to me this is crowd control gone mad. Anyone can get carried away ffs and a good public talking to lasting 3 minutes surely plus a yellow would have sufficed to give him a red face etc.?

By and large the refs over here seem to be half decent I suppose.

[RiG]

You could try an FOI request to the SFA?

The SFA are not a Public Body

Doh! There has to be a way! Think dammit think!