The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Sneckboy]

Today marks the start of the 'official' campaign. It will be interesting to see if broadcasters observe strict impartiality, as they're legally obliged to do!

[Yngwie]

I know you can't read too much into polls, but why in recent weeks has support for independence fallen (for the first time)?  I can't think of anything happening recently that would change people's minds, and Yes have been spending quite a lot on advertising in that time too.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27585557

[Oddquine]

I know you can't read too much into polls, but why in recent weeks has support for independence fallen (for the first time)?  I can't think of anything happening recently that would change people's minds, and Yes have been spending quite a lot on advertising in that time too.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27585557

 

Did you look past the ICM poll on the first page and check the rest of them out?  ICM tinkers with their methodology a lot, and did it again in that one, even more drastically....and if you can't compare like with like, polls mean even less than they do at the best of times. Did you notice that the polls are only those for pro-Union media,btw......with none for pro-Independence media, like Wings and Newsnet.....neither of which are political parties? Wonder if there was a reason for putting the ICM poll as the first one anyone sees....or is that too conspiracy-theorist?   Seems to be one law for NO and a completely other one for YES, given the virulent opposition of the MSM, including the BBC, to the YES campaign.

 

If you ignore that single last ICM poll, the trend, even in polls on behalf of pro-Union entities is still towards YES. We'll have to wait for another round of comparable polls before you can say support for independence has fallen.

[mainstander]

 

 

and Wings take on it here   http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-lies-you-get/

 

 

 

Is this Whinge Over Scotland guy a real minister or just Scotlands answer to the Reverand Iain Paisley?

[Oddquine]

 

 

 

and Wings take on it here   http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-lies-you-get/

 

 

 

Is this Whinge Over Scotland guy a real minister or just Scotlands answer to the Reverand Iain Paisley?

 

 

And are you a real mainstand or just somebody else with an online identity? 

[Hamish]

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

[PullMyFinger]

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

 

[Scarlet Pimple]

WOOOOOH!

 

Chas--better forget that you also are a human being as well as a journalist with a right to your opinion on here as much as anyone else.

[Alex MacLeod]

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

Considering Mr Bannerman, who incidently is a sports journalist and not a political one, does have as much right as any other person to make his views known, and also considering that he hasn't posted anything since beginning of March then I think that spat is well out of order and constitutes nothing more than a personal abuse of said Mr Bannerman.

[Oddquine]

 

 

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

Considering Mr Bannerman, who incidently is a sports journalist and not a political one, does have as much right as any other person to make his views known, and also considering that he hasn't posted anything since beginning of March then I think that spat is well out of order and constitutes nothing more than a personal abuse of said Mr Bannerman.

 

 

Maybe the post was aimed at something going around on FB, via the exposing anti-independence bias in the media page, regarding an article he is meant to have written for the Highland News as opposed to his posts on here. I liked the post on the premise that the FB post was correct, given he is a "journalist" and given his views as a poster on here, and given the irrationality of them......but as it turns out there is no link as yet to the article, so if I could work out how to remove the like, if only temporarily,  I would.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Oddquine

[PullMyFinger]

 

 

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

Considering Mr Bannerman, who incidently is a sports journalist and not a political one, does have as much right as any other person to make his views known, and also considering that he hasn't posted anything since beginning of March then I think that spat is well out of order and constitutes nothing more than a personal abuse of said Mr Bannerman.

 

 

Maybe the post was aimed at something going around on FB, via the exposing anti-independence bias in the media page, regarding an article he is meant to have written for the Highland News as opposed to his posts on here. I liked the post on the premise that the FB post was correct, given he is a "journalist" and given his views as a poster on here, and given the irrationality of them......but as it turns out there is no link as yet to the article, so if I could work out how to remove the like, if only temporarily,  I would.

 

 

Beside where it says "You like this" on the post is a button "unlike". 

[Joe DiMaggio]

Charles Bannerman is pathetic. That was the worst ever piece of utter garbage that I have ever read. Poorly written, cringeworthy nonsense. All it did was make him look like a complete bitter pathetic old man.

[Oddquine]

 

 

 

Charles Bannerman - you are an utter disgrace. Using what should be your neutral position as a BBC journalist to further your immoral and selfish position regarding your ridiculous unionist position is beyond contempt. You have a position of influence as a journalist and duty to not abuse this. You have failed miserably at this most basic charge as a journalist. Expect some formal procedures to follow.

Considering Mr Bannerman, who incidently is a sports journalist and not a political one, does have as much right as any other person to make his views known, and also considering that he hasn't posted anything since beginning of March then I think that spat is well out of order and constitutes nothing more than a personal abuse of said Mr Bannerman.

 

 

Maybe the post was aimed at something going around on FB, via the exposing anti-independence bias in the media page, regarding an article he is meant to have written for the Highland News as opposed to his posts on here. I liked the post on the premise that the FB post was correct, given he is a "journalist" and given his views as a poster on here, and given the irrationality of them......but as it turns out there is no link as yet to the article, so if I could work out how to remove the like, if only temporarily,  I would.

 

 

Beside where it says "You like this" on the post is a button "unlike". 

 

 

Not for a second disbelieving you......but seems to me to be a "before you click either" option.  Maybe it's a firefox thing...or I am really thick...but the most I can do, as far as I can see,  is ignore Hamish's sig  now I have clicked on the  "like.this post" button. I can't see any way to remove the like (bearing in mind that I'm not about to want to unlike, if that means disliking). because I don't do disliking folk's opinions with the click of a button as that means I can't  pontificate to the irritation of the world (as far as the world is epitomised on this forum).

Edited June 1, 2014 by Oddquine

[Oddquine]

Charles Bannerman is pathetic. That was the worst ever piece of utter garbage that I have ever read. Poorly written, cringeworthy nonsense. All it did was make him look like a complete bitter pathetic old man.

 You got a link?  Can't find it online (but then I'm not about to pay to read garbage as produced by the MSM in print or on the internet).  If he wrote even some of what the post says, it wasn't just cringeworthy...it was downright insulting to large swathes of his countrymen/women..but then is that not the Better Together's modus operendi...make us think we are a joke, and wedded to the Victorian image of Scotland as encouraged by the monarchy. According to the FB post...the article was "an astonishing rant"...though I suspect no more "astonishing" than many of his posts on here have been.

[PullMyFinger]

Gary Robertson contract not renewed at BBC, protest at BBC unreported, Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale to host Crossfire political magazine programme.

 

The union dividends never stop http://rqs.libsyn.com/ranty-at-aunty

[PullMyFinger]

 

Not for a second disbelieving you......but seems to me to be a "before you click either" option.  Maybe it's a firefox thing...or I am really thick...but the most I can do, as far as I can see,  is ignore Hamish's sig  now I have clicked on the  "like.this post" button. I can't see any way to remove the like (bearing in mind that I'm not about to want to unlike, if that means disliking). because I don't do disliking folk's opinions with the click of a button as that means I can't  pontificate to the irritation of the world (as far as the world is epitomised on this forum).

 

 

I see the option is time limited, after a while it becomes set as liked.

[Oddquine]

 

 

Not for a second disbelieving you......but seems to me to be a "before you click either" option.  Maybe it's a firefox thing...or I am really thick...but the most I can do, as far as I can see,  is ignore Hamish's sig  now I have clicked on the  "like.this post" button. I can't see any way to remove the like (bearing in mind that I'm not about to want to unlike, if that means disliking). because I don't do disliking folk's opinions with the click of a button as that means I can't  pontificate to the irritation of the world (as far as the world is epitomised on this forum).

 

 

I see the option is time limited, after a while it becomes set as liked.

 

Must be a fairly short time, then, because I wasn't that long looking for a link to the article.

[Oddquine]

I am getting sick fed up of the continual recycling of already debunked scare stories.  Cameron is still at it...with his latest....."If Scotland vote for independence they are no longer members of the EU and it's become clearer and clearer since this campaign started that they would have to reapply to join the EU and as such, as an independent country, they would have to queue up as it were behind other countries - for instance those in the western Balkans that are already on the path towards membership.

 "The risk that outside the UK you wouldn't keep the pound, the risk that outside the UK you've got to reapply to the EU, the risk that outside the UK you wouldn't have such a strong economy with so many jobs and you know in the end its a positive argument I'm making because I think the UK has been a great success story.

"We're there for each other. You know when there was a banking crisis and a big Scottish bank goes down you've got the whole of the UK there to support that bank and that economy. We're stronger and better off together.

While I don't give a toss if we are in the EU at all, it would be very simple to get certainty on this...all it needs is for Westminster to clarify the situation with the EU.....but then that would remove the option to use our post-independence position for fear-mongering until September 18th, which is why clarity won't happen.
 
Given there are as many knowledgeable people who contradict Cameron's opinion as who agree with it...and funnily enough, those who agree with Cameron, like Barroso, or Spanish politicians like Rajoy, have a particular axe to grind....logic alone would point to there being some difficulty within the EU if Scotland becomes independent, without being in the EU, or in the process of being fast-tracked to membership, (given, unlike the Balkan countries, we are pretty much EU compliant). That situation would put the position of EU citizens in Scotland on a sticky wicket, as it would Scots living/working in other EU countries, and would also close our fishing grounds to EU fishermen.

It is also somewhat short-sighted of Cameron to assume that what is left of the UK would just gaily continue being the EU member, with no need for negotiations on its own behalf over rebate etc to adjust for the fact that the UK, as it will be, is not the same UK which joined in 1975, which then had Scotland's resources at its back to gain membership. Of course, you can never assume that politicians won't cut off their noses to spite their faces, and replace pragmatism with huffing and foot-stamping, and I suspect some EU politicians are just as childish as those in Westminster.

What risk is there that, outside the UK, we can't keep the pound? The risk isn't that we can't keep the pound, the risk is that we may not have it in an official currency Union, which isn't that much of a worry, tbh, given the state of the UK economy, but there is no chance that we won't be using the pound one way or another post-independence, in the short/medium term at least.

 

I do wish people would understand that using sterling, with no currency agreement will actually be an improvement on how the Scottish economy works now...because now, we don't have the fiscal tools to compensate for Westminster policies, and have to suffer under policies predicated on controlling the economy of London and the South. The bedroom tax, the austerity budgets, the trashing of the unemployed/disabled, the cap on housing benefit etc have been put in place because of the swingeing costs of maintaining London, particularly the City of London/Greater London in the manner to which it has become accustomed. 

 

It has been flagged up by the BOE, that interest rates must rise in the next few months...and they will rise to a level which is intended to take the heat out of the burgeoning house price boom in the south, in the hopes of heading off another recession..not to a level which is necessary in Scotland, where house prices are not sky-high to the same extent. 

The banking crap is just that, crap. If we had been independent at the time of the banking crisis, would the Scottish  banks have been so pathetically poorly regulated in the first place, but even if so, rUK would still have had to bail out the banks in the rUK, which, incidentally were the loss making ones, just as the USA bailed out the branches of UK banks operating in the USA. Scotland would only have had to bail out the banks' operations in Scotland, which were mainly retail as opposed to the casino banking arms. I thought at the time, when Westminster was throwing money at the bankers, that we should have followed the Scandinavian model of the 1990's, rather than pat the bankers on the head, as we are still doing, and telling them that, as they are too big to fail, just carry on screwing us regardless.

Speaking of crap...anyone see the latest from the BetterTogether Broadcasting Corporation. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/06/02/crossfire/ and

http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/the-kezia-dugdale-show/

Plus the latest crap version of devolution-not even min far less max, from the Tories....http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-times-dont-change/

 

And regarding the certainty crap being demanded by Unionists on exactly what every policy is going to be in an iScotland, before any negotiations and the election for our first iScotland Government, Wings comments on it  here   http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-certain-death-of-the-union/  having illustrated here http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-common-sense-test/   and here  http://wingsoverscotland.com/lets-make-this-simpler/ just how crap the offer is.......an offer which is, of course, not guaranteed as it has to get through both Houses of Parliament, neither of which is enthusiastic about letting child Scotland have anything which might smack of rewarding our temerity at questioning Westminster's  parenting abilities.

[Alex MacLeod]

Tories manifesto for next election pledges referendum on europe so whether independent or not we may well be out of that union.

[Oddquine]

Tories manifesto for next election pledges referendum on europe so whether independent or not we may well be out of that union.

 

And Cameron has already said that there will be no mention of Scottish further "devolution" in the Queen's speech, if they are the ones to write it....so even getting any of what has been proposed re "devolution" is all in the lap of the gods of MPs' self-interest, and their continuing election by voters who are incensed that their taxes subsidise us, and they pay for all our perks, while not getting any of them themselves.  (Comments sections on UK newspapers are an eye opener!)

[Laurence]

You guys might be able to wax lyrical amongst yourselves for a Yes vote but the kids in Salmond's backyard told him different

Time you stopped kidding yourselves  -  Yes is dead in the water

 

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/239978-thousands-of-scottish-secondary-pupils-vote-no-in-mock-referendum/

[Renegade]

You guys might be able to wax lyrical amongst yourselves for a Yes vote but the kids in Salmond's backyard told him different

Time you stopped kidding yourselves  -  Yes is dead in the water

 

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/239978-thousands-of-scottish-secondary-pupils-vote-no-in-mock-referendum/

 

That vote's a farce.  For a start, the girl interviewed is 14 and not old enough to vote and also many of these school votes are the whole school, not just those eligible to vote.  The article's from September last year as well, so it's hardly relevant anymore.

[dougiedanger]

You guys might be able to wax lyrical amongst yourselves for a Yes vote but the kids in Salmond's backyard told him different

Time you stopped kidding yourselves  -  Yes is dead in the water

 

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/239978-thousands-of-scottish-secondary-pupils-vote-no-in-mock-referendum/

 

Finger on the pulse as ever.

[dougal]

Barack Obama wants the union to remain the way it is so that's the debate over as far as I'm concerned

Dougal

[+bughtmaster]

Mr Obama looked very uncomfortable when he said he would like GB to remain as is and by Cameron's body language there was nervous tension there, as if they had had a long discussion on the pros and cons and he wasn't too certain what the President was about to say. Certainly it is in the interests of the USA to have one person to deal with rather than two when he needs support, probably the 'Bush's little lapdog' syndrome over Iraq was at the back of his mind.   

 

 Dougal...........Debate very much still on!

 

Laurence........ think before you speak please! and do not generalise it is insulting.