St Mirren say "No"

[CaleyD]

The 11-1 voting structure will not remain in place, and that's the problem when those doing the questioning and running these programmes have not done their homework properly.

 

What does is exist is something called "protected matters".  These are put in place to offer stability and time for change to take effect and  for clubs to adjust within a "known" environment of operation.  They also stop people forcing through change under the guise of "for everyone's benefit", only to adjust them the moment they get what they want.  They are normally time locked....and in this instance that is 3 years.  All other matters (non protected matters) would be decided as is normal for any business.

 

I don't have a full list of the protected matters within the reconstruction proposals, but it includes the league structure and financial distribution model.

 

In effect, it would take a large majority of the 42 clubs to change any of these "protected matters"....but only during the first 3 years.  After that time, it would take the same level of votes as whatever is set for other business.

 

Gilmour was trying to argue that this was a bad thing because what if they've overlooked something and it desperately needs changed.  Well, if that's the case and it's such a big issue for the majority, then getting the numbers needed to change it within the 3 years would not be a problem.  That has to be better than a structure whereby they could, for example, decide after a year that they wanted rid of 10 teams and the other 32 vote them out of the setup because it only needs 75% (or less).

 

Even if you are absolutely dead set against the "protected matters" issue, you are only being asked to commit to it for 3 years....then it's gone.  Under the status quo we could be stuck with the 11-1 voting structure for much longer than that as there's no certainty that it will ever be changed.

 

The other benefit of these "protected matters" is that it gives you something with a minimum term to go and sell to sponsors, media etc. This, again, gives stability because 3+ year deals can be put in place to secure and grow the league income.  At the moment it seems to be all deals with "get out" clauses if/when things changes or aren't working out for league partners....how can clubs forecast and put long term plans in place within that type of environment?

 

These "protected matters" are not something that has just been added to the proposal, they have been there from at least January and I'd be surprised if it wasn't an element on any of the proposals that have been considered.  In fact, it would be the basis upon which any reconstruction plan must be based.

 

All in all, a total red herring and (IMO) Stuart Gilmour only served to make himself look extremely stupid on Sportsound tonight because there's no good reason to reject reconstruction on that basis....even Roy MacGregors "how do we sell season tickets for the new setup" argument made more sense....and that's saying something!!!

[Bush]

Thanks for explaining that CD. Only caught last 15 minutes of programme and they didn't portray matters as you just have.

Can you clarify one more thing? If there was a desire to change a protected matter after the fixed period, what percentage would need to vote for it?

[CaleyD]

First off, protected matters no longer exist after the 3 year period...they become normal matters, just like everything else.

 

As is often the case with any business or organisation, different things can require different levels of voting.  e.g. To change an item in the articles of association might require a special resolution needing up to 75%, whilst an operational matter might only require a straight forward majority (greater than 50% if it's a simple yes/no choice).

 

You also have things where the board have the power to make the decisions themselves and a vote of all clubs is not needed....not an issue as the board will have representatives from all leagues.

[HighlandCop]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion/sport/ross-county-chief-roy-macgregor-1823848

[jamie ictfc]

by all accounts we are voting 'yes'

 

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/221063-inverness-caledonian-thistle-confirm-they-will-vote-yes-to-12-12-18/

 

if this proposal goes ahead i shall be giving my team a 'no' for renewing my season ticket.

 

May i ask what fans were asked about this? In the interview it says 'Caley Jags Together' but can anyone clarify who was asked? because i certainly wasn't?

[davie]

Jamie,

It was me that was asked as Chairman, and I gave the opinion. I'm fully aware that not all fans are happy with any of the proposals, indeed neither am I - but only with some. What I am though, is realistic. I've seen the damage that was done by us being relegated and I genuinely believe that if it happened again we'd find it difficult to survive. So, if the package on offer readjusts the cash distribution to make the prospect easier, amalgamates one or more of the governing bodies, does away with the iniquitous 11:1 voting system and gives us a genuine pyramid system then three years of a league system that I think could be better is (in my opinion) a price worth paying. If it doesn't work, we can reassess it in three years from a position of strength - not the panic we're in now. After we were appraised by Kenny Cameron, we advertised and held discussions on reconstruction at our recent AGM which was publicised on this site and on CJT's site. Members were invited to attend. We talked to people and changed quite a few opinions although not all - but we did ask and quite a number responded. I'm happy also to discuss this with you if you PM me and give me some contact details. Given the season that we've had, where we might be next year and a greater say in the future of scottish football, is it really worth giving up your season ticket? I hope not.

Davie

[TopSix]

Too many people burying their heads in the sand. The game in Scotland is dying.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

An eloquent statement from the chairman, summing up the argument in favour of voting 'yes'.  That said, I thought St. Mirren's statement was a good presentation of the argument for 'no'.

 

I'm no fan of 12-12-18, and for what it's worth I think we simply need to add in a second relegation place or a relegation/promotion playoff from the SPL to the current setup; given the obvious misgivings a lot of clubs and fans have about introducing the new setup in time for August, I think the sensible solution is to implement the things everyone seems to agree on - financial redistribution, one governing body, getting rid of 11-1 - right now, and then spend the summer debating the rest of it.

 

That said, Kenny Cameron has so far proved to be a very able chairman and I have full trust in him.  Therefore, if he says that voting 'yes' is the way forward, I'll stand behind him.

 

To be honest, I don't think the size of the top division is the reason Scottish football is on it's knees.  I think it's because fans are charged ridiculous amounts for a mediocre product - for example, £26 for a ticket for a televised home game against St. Johnstone on a cold Friday night.  And they wonder why supporters aren't coming to games...

[Charles Bannerman]

I'm not in favour of 12-12-18 but basically I'm not sure there is ANY suitable format for a football market the size of Scotland's which includes two clubs which are sucking in a disproportionately large slice of it due to the unrealistically inflated "supports" they enjoy because they are the focal points for the opposing factions within west central Scotland's divided society.

There simply isn't enough remaining cake to go round the other clubs to retain more than a token presence of full time football without the likes of what has happened to Dunfermline, Livingston, Motherwell and Dundee. Rangers are a somwhat different case but, although not (yet?) in administration, you could also add Hearts.

And there but for the grace of God......

Because it was the early stages of embracing full time football which saw Caley Thistle on the verge of administration in 1999.

The hugely distorting effect of the Old Firm is a major element in Scottish football's ongoing failure to find a viable and acceptable structural model.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Proctor]

I am glad we are voting "yes" simply for the financial distribution model. However, I do have my reservations about it. For example the 11-1 vote still being there is totally ridiculous. The split is utterly daft and to me it seems to be there to guarantee Old Firm games. Considering we are in a position where we have none of these games then why should this matter? For the greater good I will support Kenny Cameron on this because I don't want to see any clubs going to the wall.

[Caleyjag157]

Why oh why do we keep getting told its 12 12 18 format or nothing there is no alternative, its now or never. Forget the scare tactics of the SPL bully boys and get round a table and talk, listen to the fans get some sensible ideas. I'm sick of hearing this is the only option available!

[Charles Bannerman]

 the 11-1 vote still being there is totally ridiculous.

Would there not be a wonderful irony if the absurdity which is the 11-1 were to be what eventually sank 12-12-18 if two of the "lesser lights" (no disrespect to st Mirren and - subject to tomorrow's board meeting - Ross County there) decided to vote against it. A refreshing case of a silly rule brought in for the protection of the big clubs being exploited by the smaller ones.

"Gloriously hoist by their own petard" was the expression I used elsewhere.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[+jagster]

by all accounts we are voting 'yes'

 

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/221063-inverness-caledonian-thistle-confirm-they-will-vote-yes-to-12-12-18/

 

if this proposal goes ahead i shall be giving my team a 'no' for renewing my season ticket.

 

May i ask what fans were asked about this? In the interview it says 'Caley Jags Together' but can anyone clarify who was asked? because i certainly wasn't?

I must admit I'm with Jamie on this one, I will seriously consider not renewing as well after having a st for 10 years, This may well turn out to be our greatest ever season but would our season tickets be sold at Premier league prices or 1st division prices, If by luck we end up in the middle 8 after 22 games we would be playing the likes of Raith Rovers Morton  QoS etc not Celtic etc, we would only have 1 home game against the top  Premier league teams then 1 more against the lower spl teams and 1st div teams. Is there going to be a split price season ticket depending on where you finish the season i.e. you pay half a season at spl prices then half a season at 1st division prices if that is where we end up. I totally fail to see how the quality of our football is going to change just by juggling the numbers

[The Mantis]

I'm old enough to remember the 18 team league being scrapped in 1975 and as Charles says Scottish football will continue to try various models. If there was a fix we would have found it by now.

BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE SHORT TERM IS TO GET RID OF THE 11-1 WHILE RANGERS ARE DENIED A VOTE. THIS HAS BEEN THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE THING FOR SCOTTISH FOOTBALL IN RECENT YEARS.

[CaleyD]

Why oh why do we keep getting told its 12 12 18 format or nothing there is no alternative, its now or never. Forget the scare tactics of the SPL bully boys and get round a table and talk, listen to the fans get some sensible ideas. I'm sick of hearing this is the only option available!

 

Some people seem to be of the opinion that the reconstruction talk is a new thing.  It's not, and has been "on the table" for years.  What has changed is the fact that there's now a proposal that was acceptable to enough teams for it to make it to the stage of it having a realistic chance of being implemented.  So, yes....after looking at and discussing all the options for years, this IS the ONLY one that has any chance of being achievable....not only in terms of league structure, but in terms of gettin acceptance on all the other things which people want.

 

There is no magic "other option" just sitting on the sidelines ready to replace this one if it fails....and that's the harsh reality of the situation.

 

There's 12 reasons for that....and that is the 12 SPL clubs, all with differing priorities, different business/operation models and with a huge gulf between the financial situation of the top team/s and the bottom.  IMO, it's a miracle they've found any solution which was acceptable across the board....do we really want to risk letting that pass us by?

 

 

 

by all accounts we are voting 'yes'

 

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/221063-inverness-caledonian-thistle-confirm-they-will-vote-yes-to-12-12-18/

 

if this proposal goes ahead i shall be giving my team a 'no' for renewing my season ticket.

 

May i ask what fans were asked about this? In the interview it says 'Caley Jags Together' but can anyone clarify who was asked? because i certainly wasn't?

I must admit I'm with Jamie on this one, I will seriously consider not renewing as well after having a st for 10 years, This may well turn out to be our greatest ever season but would our season tickets be sold at Premier league prices or 1st division prices, If by luck we end up in the middle 8 after 22 games we would be playing the likes of Raith Rovers Morton  QoS etc not Celtic etc, we would only have 1 home game against the top  Premier league teams then 1 more against the lower spl teams and 1st div teams. Is there going to be a split price season ticket depending on where you finish the season i.e. you pay half a season at spl prices then half a season at 1st division prices if that is where we end up. I totally fail to see how the quality of our football is going to change just by juggling the numbers

 

 

I keep hearing people coming up with this season ticket argument thing....here's my thoughts....

 

At the moment we have a league structure that doesn't guarantee a set number of home matches, yet clubs are happy to sell season tickets on that basis.  The new system guarantees you 18 home matches.

 

Under the new proposal, those finishing in the bottom 4 will play 8 post split matches against "lower" opposition.  Top 8 and you avoid that.  With a 16 team league, you are guaranteed to play 8 games against these "lower" opposition, regardless of where you are in the league.  If you really object to games against these teams, then surely the new proposal is better as it at least gives you a chance of avoiding these games?

 

People, for the most part, buy a season ticket because they want to watch the home team regularly.  If you only want to see your team playing the best teams, then surely your argument should be for a smaller top league?

 

How does these "lower" teams get better if we do not have an all through financial structure?  I think a lot of people forget that we were once, and could easily be again, one of these "lower" teams.  Our relegations season cost us close to £1 Million and wiped out the clubs entire financial reserve...plus some.  had the proposed financial structure been in place, then the financial impact would have been halved, we'd still have some money in the bank and the club might have been able to consider cheaper ticket prices.  As it is, the club now have to try and compete at a higher level whilst trying to replenish those reserves....something which we seem to be on track to start doing.  However, how long will that take, and what happens should the worst happen in the interim?  The SPL aren't, and neither they should, just hand over millions of pounds to a different body for them to do as they please....the only way to achieve these things is as a single body.

 

I have, again, attached the presentation which CJT gave to fans for people to look at.  Would also like to highlight that this presentation was open to all fans and was advertised on this forum -  the paper, on our website, via Facebook/Twitter (even on the club pages), by letter to all CJT members and via MFR....really don't know what else we could have done to let people know!!!

 

cjt_reconstruction.pdf

[+Fraz]

I don't get this 'I'm not renewing my season ticket' thing what's next? I disagree with the choice of beers available in the bar - 'I'm not renewing my season ticket!' Honestly talk about toys out of the pram.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the new league set up, but I'm willing to give it a fair shake in particular as it means better distribution of money, one body for the leagues and a fair voting structure meaning that if in a few seasons if people aren't happy it can be changed much more easily. In the real world sometimes you don't get everything you want all the time, you have to compromise in order to make things work. As for not knowing who we are playing for part of the season well I go to ICT games to watch ICT not the other team. Besides I'd like a bit of variety regardless.

[+jagster]

I agree re your comment about going to watch ICT but one of the biggest bugbears people have appear to be cost as hislop above says £26 against St johnstone etc, Should we be paying the same price for a lesser product, I'm pretty sure our 1st div tickets were cheaper than spl as regards your toys out of pram comment. I have spent a lot of money as I am sure many have over the years. From that 1st league game against Arbroath through all the trials and tribulations that have followed Mainly all good I may add therefore it would take a lot for me to consider not renewing my st. I just believe that we should pay for the quality of product we get to see and truth of the matter is I'm sure ill be in the north stand at the beginning of the season as normal. And regarding the beers in the bar could we get some draught leffe like they have in no 27 really nice ;)

Edited April 12, 2013 by jagster

[Caleyjag157]

Ticket prices are higher when we play Rangers/Celtic I take it they will be lower prices if we end up playing the 1st division teams!

[RiG]

I don't get this 'I'm not renewing my season ticket' thing what's next? I disagree with the choice of beers available in the bar - 'I'm not renewing my season ticket!' Honestly talk about toys out of the pram.

 

That's a ridiculous comparison.

Edited April 12, 2013 by RiG

[CaleyD]

I agree re your comment about going to watch ICT but one of the biggest bugbears people have appear to be cost as hislop above says £26 against St johnstone etc, Should we be paying the same price for a lesser product, I'm pretty sure our 1st div tickets were cheaper than spl as regards your toys out of pram comment. I have spent a lot of money as I am sure many have over the years. From that 1st league game against Arbroath through all the trials and tribulations that have followed Mainly all good I may add therefore it would take a lot for me to consider not renewing my st. I just believe that we should pay for the quality of product we get to see and truth of the matter is I'm sure ill be in the north stand at the beginning of the season as normal. And regarding the beers in the bar could we get some draught leffe like they have in no 27 really nice ;)

 

Prices wouldn't go down if we had a larger league....so you would be paying the same (or more if number of league games reduces) to watch those teams anyway.

 

Prices are not set based on quality of opposition, they are set at the level needed to bring the income necessary for the club to survive.  The only hope we have of ever seeing a decrease in the prices (without dropping down the leagues) is to improve financial stability and give clubs an environment and confidence to tinker with them.  The status quo cannot, and never will, provide that.

[+jagster]

Fair comment about league size and prices I'd never thought of it like that I still dislike all this take it or leave it, jobs are going to be lost etc we heard all this last year with the rangers fiasco and as luck would have it it had been the most exciting league for years, it just feels as if the fans are being railroaded into something the majority don't want. If the customers are supposedly the most important aspect to any business then why are their views not being recognised. This could all be hypothetical as the vote may scupper the whole proposal. Interesting times ahead for sure. In all fairness to the chairmen etc its a pretty thankless task. We can't agree on our forum so what chance all fans of clubs all agreeing to reconstruction or deconstruction I'm sure our own tb said in a previous interview from a while back

[PaderbornCaley]

With St Mirren voting no and County looking likely to vote no then it probably wont happen anyway.

 

Personally, I quite like the new set up.  If Kenny believes that it is a financially better option then I trust him that this is the case.

 

In terms of the format, if we get into the top 8 then great!  We all play each other and if it's as tight as it is this year, the European chase will be interesting.  If we are unlucky enough not to make it into the top 8 then at least we can go to different teams stadiums we haven't played in a while.  I have no issue with playing 'smaller' teams and it means we can keep an eye on the league below to see who the potential opponents would be.  If everyone goes back to zero points after the split, then for the teams that are good enough, this shouldn't be an issue anyway.  All in all, I like it for the chase for the top 8 and then European challenge.  Or starting from scratch when we've had a pi5h season and travelling to other stadiums we haven't been to in a few years.  Makes it much more interesting.

[+Fraz]

I agree re your comment about going to watch ICT but one of the biggest bugbears people have appear to be cost as hislop above says £26 against St johnstone etc, Should we be paying the same price for a lesser product, I'm pretty sure our 1st div tickets were cheaper than spl as regards your toys out of pram comment. I have spent a lot of money as I am sure many have over the years. From that 1st league game against Arbroath through all the trials and tribulations that have followed Mainly all good I may add therefore it would take a lot for me to consider not renewing my st. I just believe that we should pay for the quality of product we get to see and truth of the matter is I'm sure ill be in the north stand at the beginning of the season as normal. And regarding the beers in the bar could we get some draught leffe like they have in no 27 really nice ;)

 

Of course everyone would like cheaper tickets. I'm pretty sure you could PAG for £21 for the St J game. My tickets work out at under £16 a game based on my north stand season ticket, I don't think that's too bad particularly considering the season we've had, it's not like we get a reduction for being bottom six as it is and nobody seems to have an issue with that.

 

It just irks me after last years Rangers debacle that so many wanted the club to 'do the right thing' and it would seem that a good number didn't put their money where their mouth was. Now we have this again with people threatening to chuck their STs (after such an awesome season, the players must despair!) but everyone is of course entitled to their stance. Just wondering also if people would like a reduction for ending in the middle eight would they conversely be happy to pay a supplement for ending up in the top eight? I doubt it!

 

As for the beers I'd like to see some Staropramen on tap! 

 

 

 

I don't get this 'I'm not renewing my season ticket' thing what's next? I disagree with the choice of beers available in the bar - 'I'm not renewing my season ticket!' Honestly talk about toys out of the pram.

 

That's a ridiculous comparison.

 

 

Except it's not a comparison, it's a bit of the old reductio ad absurdum. Therefore it was meant to be a bit absurd. I would have thought that was pretty obvious. Anyway if it was a comparison it would have read 'that's like' or 'that's the same as' not 'what's next' HTH  

[HighlandCop]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-supremo-roy-macgregor-1828697

[Rainbow]

As for the beers I'd like to see some Staropramen on tap! 

 

A very good choice indeed