Is the G-word racist?

[tm4tj]

Thats dandy david, it is time the world new about this.

[Heilandee]

So................reading between the lines, and trying to clear the muddied waters, has anything been resolved.

It appears to me that anyone mentioning the G word will be lifted............right.

I for one will be giving this game a miss, mainly due to ICT jobsworthism.

Sorry to read that Manny,ICT jobsworths and policing policies at TCS managed to pee off this "neutral" enough to stop going along as a supporter of football who enjoys a good afternoon out, but I decided it just wasn't worth the hassle.If they are doing it to died in the wool auld gits like yerself they really need to take a look at where it's all heading

[tm4tj]

Cheers for the backin Al. How does this compare with the stewarding/policing of the home fans at Dee??

[Heilandee]

Ach, we all get issues Manny ,but it's the inequity in policing and stewarding at TCS that gets meh dinger.They always take the easy option here, allowing OF carte blanc,picking out youngsters for standing or swearing (oh dear :( ) whilst turning a blind eye to OF in home ends etc. My final straw was at St Mirren game couple of years back when ICT came back from 2 down and when 3rd went in youngster with no malice whatsoever jumped the wall celebrating and was hooked by polis with his feet of the ground and charged.My remonstrations with the polis near got me into proper bother and while i'd do it again,I just cant be arsed with the hassle anymore.Mebbes we should make a stand against this nonsense but the PC folk are wearing me down.

Sunday is exactly the type of game i'd happily have gone along to in the past and supported ICT , few beers and bit of craic, but sadly,not anymore.

[Renegade]

Welcome to Great Britain 2009 everybody.

[Johnboy]

C'mon on CaleyD.... Say something.... It's way past my bedtime.

[CaleyD]

Apologies for not being able to come on and post sooner, had to go straight out to work after the meeting and then decided to take a couple of hours off from a crap week to go have a cuppa with friends (well, I could have lied and said I was working all night!!!)

Give me 20 minutes or so to have my tea and I'll post a fuller report on tonights meeting....you might want to pour yourselves a large one while you wait.

[RowdyBey]

Oh feck, currently got odds of 3/1 for me to be chucked out within 10 minutes :(

[CaleyD]

First off, I would like to make the point that whilst I was at the meeting representing the Supporters Trust, any views or opinions expressed in the following are mine and mine alone as I have not had the opportunity to discuss the content with the rest of the Trust Board and it would be inappropriate for me to speak on behalf of them before that talk has taken place.

This is my understanding and recollection of the meeting.

In attendance.....

Mike Smith - General Manager (ICTFC)

Peter McCallum - Safety Officer (ICTFC)

Alistair "something" - A Police Sergeant heavily involved with policing of all kinds of events within the region

Don Johnstone - Supporters Trust/CaleyThistleOnline (Me)

3 concerned ICTFC Fans (Who can name themselves if they so wish)

A few matters were discussed at tonight's meeting, but the main focus was on the use of the word "Gypsy" in reference to Ross County fans.

The topic was kicked off by the 3 fans in attendance expressing their confusion at where the apparent issue had arisen from and Mike Smith explained that he had received complaints (one verbal and one written) from season ticket holders following the last match versus Ross County. He went on to explain how these things are handled by the club, pointing out that they had a duty to follow up on and investigate any complaint.

He then passed on to Alistair (Police) who gave us a brief summary of the law on these matters. To cut a long story short, the law basically states that if you make any remark which is deemed racially offensive by anyone who hears it then you are leaving yourself wide open. It was also highlighted that the word "Gypsy" was now a specified term within the legislation on the matter, which is why it might have been deemed acceptable up until more recently.

I questioned this matter, stating that surely some "context" must be applied to any given situation, and whilst Alistair agreed that this should/would be the case, the simple fact of the matter with these things is that very little, if any, consideration is given by the courts in regards to the roots of any term (whether they have any basis in racism). If it can be deemed to be racist...then that's the bottom line.

The fact that Ross County fans have been called Gypsies by us since before this legislation came in to place would carry very little weight with the courts.

The matter was discussed around the table a fair bit, with various scenarios being given. The question was asked about visiting fans calling us names..."Sheep Shagging Bastards" being the example used. Alistair highlighted that this could (and would if someone complained and the matter was pushed) be seen as a breech of the peace, but would be unlikely to be dealt with as severely as comments involving a racial element which is a different and more serious charge.

I again questioned why, if the legislation had existed since 1996 and the word "Gypsy" had been added in 2006, were we only hearing about it and being clamped down on now. Again, this came back to the fact that, until now, neither the club nor the police had ever received any complaint, but having now got a complaint then they need to act.

We had some discussion about how this was communicated to the fans on Saturday and it was agreed that whilst it probably wasn't an ideal way to do it, the club were merely trying to get the information to the fans most likely to find themselves in bother...not through doing anything they don't usually do, but by not being aware that this had now become an issue...as was said, not ideal, but better than the club giving no information whatsoever.

So, what's the bottom line?

For reasons which are beyond the control of the club, the police and the fans...the term Gyspy is no longer deemed acceptable when being used to wind up or swap banter with Ross County (or any other) fans.

This is not me just towing any party line, the lads at the meeting tonight will tell you that I put forward every conceivable argument I could come up with, but the sad fact of the matter is....none of it matters a jot. Whether we like it or not, this is not something that the club or police have any control over.

Alistair highlighted that the police do not want to be lifting people. Many of the police are football fans themselves, but whilst they may understand the "history", they are there to uphold the law and the law says that offending anyone on the basis of the word Gypsy....or any other words inferring they are Gypsies....is racist.

Once that had been established I then raised a concern about the communication of things such as this to the fans. Issuing "warnings", albeit ones intended as friendly, is not best done in the stand before a match when people are likely to be a little more hyped up and in "game mode". Could this matter have been dealt with sooner and in a different way? Probably, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome. At best it would have saved 8 pages of ranting on here and a lot of frustration on the part of the fans.

I have once again urged the club to look at how these things are handled and put across my view that if we all had a better understanding of how things worked and the processes involved then it might cut out a lot of the unnecessary high blood pressure.

As an aside to the above, and I know this is a little off the topic of this thread. The handling of away fans for offensive behaviour was explained to the meeting by Alistair (Police). In summary, just because we don't see any action being taken in terms of police and stewards wading in to the away end doesn't mean nothing is being done. Because of the nature of away crowds and the fact that trouble spots tend to involve larger groups of people, the police use more covert tactics to remove and or reprimand offenders. These range from quietly escorting them away when they go to use the toilet or get a pie, to the use of CCTV footage to identify people who then get an unexpected police visit at home a couple of days later. It was also pointed out that since ICT fans are generally well behaved (home and away) then it's not something that many (if any) of us will have experienced first hand. Any problems with our mob are generally one or two which means they can be dealt with more openly at the time.

The subject of standing was also raised and Peter McCallum pointed out that the clubs primary concern on this was not so much the standing, but the overcrowding of certain areas. It was suggested that the club could, again, look at making the West Stand available....allowing people to move over there so they can all be together without the risk of occupying other season ticket holder seats or overcrowding. This will take a bit of discussion among all parties to come up with a workable plan, but it is one possible solution to part of the problem.

I'm sure I probably missed some stuff, and I would appreciate people asked questions before going off the deepend on anything.

One thing I would say before closing. Please be very careful of trying to turn this into a tit for tat scenario, and I say that for our own sakes. It would be easy for any of us to start writing letters to the club complaining about some of the things away fans call us, but remember that anything they end up being banned from singing/chanting will also mean a ban from us being allowed to sing/chant the same or similar. This is already bureaucracy gone mad (although at a higher level than the club or police), let's not be the ones that make it any worse.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Well reported Caley D.

If the word gypsy is banned for ever are there just two options now for the fanbase to follow? All show up at the park with a handkerchief wrapped round their face and nose so that no one could identify that any word came out of their mouths, especially if they kept their lips from moving. And any fan with mal intent who complained about anyone else could equally be accused of the self-same crime.

Secondly use the word jopsy instead. A gipppssie with dropsy like.

Jopsy is an inoffensive, completely non-racist word and is definitely more of a banter expression than the farcical attributes that the expression of the word gypsy is supposed to denote. And no club or SFA body would dare have anyone arrested OR SENT TO THE COURT for shouting :

The County jopsy has a popsie

Who is young and fair

I can't say ..."whooooosh" to him but I can say --dare

the Dingwall Daddy to get her back once mair.

He lives in a caravan with only two wheels

and his socks are holy 'cos he genuflects before his meals

His horse is on his holidays and is currently down the ferry

He's gonna have a 'mare today so no doubt he will get merry

Oh County, County fan, we all wish you good luck today 'cos your really gonna need it

When the match is over and the die is truly cast ,

You'll find the final scoreline will fairly make you spit and you will be aghast

So whether you are hippy, lippy, flippy nippy, grippy or just plain typsy

You are, were and always WILL remain nothing but a .................. jopsie.

:(

[highlandexile]

I think the saddest thing about all this is the fact that it wasn't the county fans that complained and started all this it was our own fans

[Georgeios]

what a compleat load of Pi5h, thanks to the 3 fans and caley D or going along and clearing that up!!

But i will point out that Mike Smith Discrimanated against the "young Fans" that day, so again he has broken the law there....

Its a &&&&&&& Joke people, its banter at a football game, who ever reported it.... the 3, please know you have really runed this for the 300,

I will not be going and to be honest im quite happy i wont be now!! I'll support the team by watching on the tv and on here because thats basicly the same as what would happen at the ground... sit and say nothing, at least I'll be warm and a few quid better off, oh and the tea'll be nicer!

CaleyD it did cross my mind to write a letter or get mass letter writing, BUT it was one or 3 of our own that did this, and I like banter so to be honest i feel we should rise above this and let the away fans enjoy themselfs and call us what they want..... In the name of banter!!!

Edited October 3, 2009 by Georgeios

[highlandexile]

2 complaints out of a crowd of 5846 and the banter at County games changes forever!!!!!!!

[davie]

I hope the three are happy now, but I really would like to see evidence. Verbal complaints are not generally acted upon by the club (or there would be no stewards left) so why now, and why the young lads? This is vindictive discrimination by the club, acting on one written complaint.

I am not happy. I will be going to the game, despite it becoming more and more apparent that the muppets have a death wish for the club and I will make my displeasure known if need be. Again Mike Smith, if you don't like banter then go somewhere where none exists.

[Georgeios]

Great Post Davie!! Im not going as i dont want to give the muppets my money to distroy my match day fun!! ITS FOOTBALL!!! I will watch on the TV and support our team and managment from my warm living room!! This is the only reason im not going, it my protest, wont make much if any difference but im pritty sure the game will have loads of empty seat as alot of people are getting pissed off with the way we are treated, now im an oldish guy but picked my seat in G for the Banter!! but it seems the "Young" Future supporters are being hunted down and told.... Stop having fun!!

[Yngwie]

Surely it's the law that's the problem, not the club.

I can understand protection being afforded to the race of ethnic Roma people, but not to people who have just made a lifestyle choice.

[davie]

Surely it's the law that's the problem, not the club.

I can understand protection being afforded to the race of ethnic Roma people, but not to people who have just made a lifestyle choice.

Yngwie, this is all about context. Being racist implies a malicious attitude towards the group (gypsy, whatever) intended to discriminate and harm. If you have ever seen this in evidence towards County supporters, I'll bu**er off and shut up now. But you haven't. This is banter, pure and simple. It is true that the Law is a blunt instrument in this respect, but it is one that the muppets have picked up sharpish and used against the bairns in section G. On the basis of one admissible complaint? How does it make sense to alienate hundreds on the basis of that? BTW, I don't have a racist bone in my body. If I see racism or discrimination I will fight it, but up front and with common sense. That is what this club patently and arrogantly lacks. I wonder what will happen tomorrow when the inevitable "stand up if you hate Mike Smith" happens? The club will no doubt claim nothing they could do about a situation that they engineered and the fans will suffer again. As usual. BTW if anyone out there, who knows about my other football passion refers to me as an "arab", I shall report them immediately.

Edited October 3, 2009 by davie

[RiG]

It's in the P & J today:

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1423887

[HumbersideDude]

If the fans in the North stand stand and sing " sit down if you hate gypsies, sit down if you hate gypsies", Will this leave those sitting in the main stand liable to arrest or being thrown out?

[Johnboy]

Reading CaleyD's report from last night's meeting, I don't think Mike Smith or anyone else at the club are to blame in this case.

Sadly, it's yet another example of PC gone mad. The obsession with persecuting generally well behaved groups of supporters, in case, repeat in case, someone, somewhere, one person even, might find reference to gypsies offensive. It really does beggar belief that the complaints received by the club, came from (alleged)ICT supporters. As highlighted on another thread, common sense appears to have died.

It concerns me that some are considering withdrawing support from the club over this issue, at a time when it needs all the support it can get.

[Joe DiMaggio]

I wonder if the complaints were to with abusive language or specifically about the word gypsy?

Also no other football club in the world would stop singing their usual songs because they were told to one day. Again if loads of people sing the usual then I'm pretty sure nothing at all will happen about it.

I will be singing the songs I did at the last game and hope as many people as possible join in.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Its the pub for me .

[CaleyMad]

the term Gyspy is no longer deemed acceptable when being used to wind up or swap banter with Ross County (or any other) fans.

Will they throw 300 fans singing "you dirty gypsy b*stard" out the staduim???

I wont be singing it at all, i will be sitting in section a chanting give me a c, give me a a.... rather than this offence behaviour in g :(:015:

Can i ask CaleyD or Scotty (or wanna be admin's)... Is the term Gypsy acceptable on this forum when we are talking about the County fans?

[old caley girl]

This is unbelievable. 2 complaints cause all this publicity which make us all look racist to the rest of the world. Horrified about the P and J article. I think the club reacting like they did has made things a lot worse and has made us all look bad. No wonder folk would rather stay at home.

[davie]

This is unbelievable. 2 complaints cause all this publicity which make us all look racist to the rest of the world. Horrified about the P and J article. I think the club reacting like they did has made things a lot worse and has made us all look bad. No wonder folk would rather stay at home.

Couldn't agree more old girl. Responsibility lies completely with Mike Smith for engineering this over one (and therefore uncorroborated in writing) complaint. I note that in the same paper, Adam Rooney wants the fans to " turn up the volume to drown out the travelling support and (sic) maybe even unnerve their players" According to MS, this is probably incitement.