Butcher and Malpas' contract

[alternative maryhill]

he actually is tbf. Something TB isnt and hes no good.

Bye bye.

Nope none, except failing to keep ICT up, unprofessional behaviour towards the supporters, bizarre team selections towards the end of last season, refusing to play Esson in the last game cause of his ego, playing boring football, playing far too defensively at home, getting rid of decent younger players (ie - Vigurs) and replacing them with duds (ie - Stratford). Other than that he's been fine.

QUOTE (KingBeastie @ Oct 19 2009, 11:58 PM)

The large majority of teams who have the same management team in place that long tend to reap the benefits.

The difference is they have a decent manager in the first place, and don't stick with duds for the sake of it. They also don't employ a manager who has an awful record.

DC; Renegade:

Fair enough, you don't rate Butcher as a manager; I have doubts myself. But can either of you explain why it would benefit the club more to sack him now, accrue extra debts for the club paying off his and MM's contracts and leave a replacement (probably of equally or more dubious pedigree) to fashion a winning side out of TB's signings, rather than accepting we're going to have a poor season and allowing TB and MM to walk away at the end of the season at no extra cost to the club? And if you can't, don't you think it's potentially counter-productive to be so relentlessly critical of the management team?

I'm not having a go: I've just not been convinced yet by any of the arguments in favour of changing the management team mid-season.

P.S. Apologies for not being able to quote properly from multiple posts in one reply - maybe some kind person less technically inept than me will explain it some day...

I think most of us have come to accept the fact we are stuck with TB and MM till the end of the season.

I just don't see why that should completely absolve them of any criticism regards the players they have brought in, the players they have let go, the tactics and team selections they adopt.

Their shortcomings are there for all to see..... The buck has to stop with them - there is nowhere left for them to hide.

I agree, which is why I specifically used the phrase "relentlessly critical". We certainly should be clear about where and why we think things aren't working. I just feel that a lot of the criticism has nothing constructive about it and also goes beyond merely venting anger after a bad performance.

I also agree that most of silent majority are prepared to see TB and MM continue to the end of their contracts, but there is a strong presence on the forum that seems to think we would be better rid of them straight away and as I suggested above, I've yet to hear an argument that convinces me that that would benefit the club.

[Stevie]

The way I feel is that we've basically got to write of the season.

I don't think we'll go down I think Airdrie & Ayr will remain the teams in trouble.

I don't want to see Butcher in charge next season but as many have mentioned , there is no way we could afford to sack him, as I say we've just got to write off the season.

What worries me is the possibility of losing guys like McBain, Duncan, Esson etc. like we have with Garry Wood & Iain Vigurs etc.

Oh aye and heaven forbid we sign anybody in the January window, you know , some Vauxhall Conference rejects or something !! :D

[TtotheOtotheM]

Write off the rest of the season? Thats not going to work. For a start, we have numerous players on one year deals who aren't going to be keen to sign for an average sfl side. We can't keep saying "next year", look at Liverpool and how far thats gotten them. Plus, we'll have less funds next year. Got to give it a serious go, its not over yet!

[Johnboy]

bizarre team selections

This site needs a "pot...kettle" smiley!

Well Butcher's bizarre team selections certainly haven't always worked.

Who's to say Renegade's would do any worse?

[Renegade]

he actually is tbf. Something TB isnt and hes no good.

Bye bye.

Nope none, except failing to keep ICT up, unprofessional behaviour towards the supporters, bizarre team selections towards the end of last season, refusing to play Esson in the last game cause of his ego, playing boring football, playing far too defensively at home, getting rid of decent younger players (ie - Vigurs) and replacing them with duds (ie - Stratford). Other than that he's been fine.

QUOTE (KingBeastie @ Oct 19 2009, 11:58 PM)

The large majority of teams who have the same management team in place that long tend to reap the benefits.

The difference is they have a decent manager in the first place, and don't stick with duds for the sake of it. They also don't employ a manager who has an awful record.

DC; Renegade:

Fair enough, you don't rate Butcher as a manager; I have doubts myself. But can either of you explain why it would benefit the club more to sack him now, accrue extra debts for the club paying off his and MM's contracts and leave a replacement (probably of equally or more dubious pedigree) to fashion a winning side out of TB's signings, rather than accepting we're going to have a poor season and allowing TB and MM to walk away at the end of the season at no extra cost to the club? And if you can't, don't you think it's potentially counter-productive to be so relentlessly critical of the management team?

I'm not having a go: I've just not been convinced yet by any of the arguments in favour of changing the management team mid-season.

P.S. Apologies for not being able to quote properly from multiple posts in one reply - maybe some kind person less technically inept than me will explain it some day...

I don't think I've called for him to be sacked so far, I just feel that he should never have been given the job in the first place. If I could turn back time, and I was given the choice to take Butcher or not, I wouldn't take him. I was keen on him coming in in the first place, but now looking back I was wrong to think so. His record says it all, it's not even what you'd call mediocre. Five previous sackings, four sackings and the other was a bottom finish in his first season, only saved from relegaton on a technicallity. The way his team is and plays, his ICT team, it's obvious why he has such a poor record. The problem is we sit and tolerate it and don't have the funds to get rid of him no matter how bad is, and we're going to have to sit and bare with it for now.

bizarre team selections

This site needs a "pot...kettle" smiley!

The difference, mine would work.

[DornochCaley]

he actually is tbf. Something TB isnt and hes no good.

Bye bye.

Nope none, except failing to keep ICT up, unprofessional behaviour towards the supporters, bizarre team selections towards the end of last season, refusing to play Esson in the last game cause of his ego, playing boring football, playing far too defensively at home, getting rid of decent younger players (ie - Vigurs) and replacing them with duds (ie - Stratford). Other than that he's been fine.

QUOTE (KingBeastie @ Oct 19 2009, 11:58 PM)

The large majority of teams who have the same management team in place that long tend to reap the benefits.

The difference is they have a decent manager in the first place, and don't stick with duds for the sake of it. They also don't employ a manager who has an awful record.

DC; Renegade:

Fair enough, you don't rate Butcher as a manager; I have doubts myself. But can either of you explain why it would benefit the club more to sack him now, accrue extra debts for the club paying off his and MM's contracts and leave a replacement (probably of equally or more dubious pedigree) to fashion a winning side out of TB's signings, rather than accepting we're going to have a poor season and allowing TB and MM to walk away at the end of the season at no extra cost to the club? And if you can't, don't you think it's potentially counter-productive to be so relentlessly critical of the management team?

I'm not having a go: I've just not been convinced yet by any of the arguments in favour of changing the management team mid-season.

P.S. Apologies for not being able to quote properly from multiple posts in one reply - maybe some kind person less technically inept than me will explain it some day...

Maybe is we "Dispose" of them we wont have to give them a fee :D

[TopSix]

he actually is tbf. Something TB isnt and hes no good.

Bye bye.

Nope none, except failing to keep ICT up, unprofessional behaviour towards the supporters, bizarre team selections towards the end of last season, refusing to play Esson in the last game cause of his ego, playing boring football, playing far too defensively at home, getting rid of decent younger players (ie - Vigurs) and replacing them with duds (ie - Stratford). Other than that he's been fine.

QUOTE (KingBeastie @ Oct 19 2009, 11:58 PM)

The large majority of teams who have the same management team in place that long tend to reap the benefits.

The difference is they have a decent manager in the first place, and don't stick with duds for the sake of it. They also don't employ a manager who has an awful record.

DC; Renegade:

Fair enough, you don't rate Butcher as a manager; I have doubts myself. But can either of you explain why it would benefit the club more to sack him now, accrue extra debts for the club paying off his and MM's contracts and leave a replacement (probably of equally or more dubious pedigree) to fashion a winning side out of TB's signings, rather than accepting we're going to have a poor season and allowing TB and MM to walk away at the end of the season at no extra cost to the club? And if you can't, don't you think it's potentially counter-productive to be so relentlessly critical of the management team?

I'm not having a go: I've just not been convinced yet by any of the arguments in favour of changing the management team mid-season.

P.S. Apologies for not being able to quote properly from multiple posts in one reply - maybe some kind person less technically inept than me will explain it some day...

I don't think I've called for him to be sacked so far, I just feel that he should never have been given the job in the first place. If I could turn back time, and I was given the choice to take Butcher or not, I wouldn't take him. I was keen on him coming in in the first place, but now looking back I was wrong to think so. His record says it all, it's not even what you'd call mediocre. Five previous sackings, four sackings and the other was a bottom finish in his first season, only saved from relegaton on a technicallity. The way his team is and plays, his ICT team, it's obvious why he has such a poor record. The problem is we sit and tolerate it and don't have the funds to get rid of him no matter how bad is, and we're going to have to sit and bare with it for now.

bizarre team selections

This site needs a "pot...kettle" smiley!

The difference, mine would work.

Big beefs with Mr Butcher from many people. Second half during the Raith game he actually gave a flying fyck and it was clear he wanted to win. I've said all along, if he, from his personal point of view, can't win / hold a decent position in the first division then he should, perhaps, give up on management completely.

Maybe that's his plan?

Year in the big snake then offski?

Who knows.

My view is that the home 'fans' are a miserable shower who are too negative. Personally I'm a fan of Butcher as a man. As a manager, I think he's getting a wee bit of a hard time. We have a small club - granted. But does it need to operate in such a highland league manner? ( And in no way am I dissing the highland league.)

Too many people on here are very quick to offer their opinions.

Are you coaching these players week in, week out? (I was going to offer day in, day out...)

Too many people on here are too quick to blame players and the management. I say lay off with the negativity and look forward to the game against Ayr on Saturday.

I think we're going to pump 'em rotten

[PullMyFinger]

Too many people on here are very quick to offer their opinions.

That's your opinion.

[918loyal]

My view is that the home 'fans' are a miserable shower who are too negative.

Aye there are a fair few of them, that goes without saying. Most probably members of this forum.

Its true what they say about forums, especially this one... They make 90% of the noise, but represent 10% of the opinion.

Some of the posts on here are laughable. I actually read a post after the Dunfermline game from somebody saying that they wished we had lost ... what a fan. absolutely unbelievable.

It really is embarrassing reading some of the negativity on here sometimes,

Some of you really need to get a life and try actually supporting your team...

[CaleyD]

Its true what they say about forums, especially this one... They make 90% of the noise, but represent 10% of the opinion.

I'd be interested in studying this fact....where can I get more information on it?

[Council Juice]

I for one hope he does stay till the end of the season as It would only be further deprimental to the team to dismiss/lose him this early on.

There is a good chance that once the team starts to gel we might just click. 3 wins in a row and we'd almost certainly be right in there. We are a little behind granted but lets not get to jumpy... again.

As for writing of the season. That would just be giving up. No use in that.

We need to get some noise in the fans. We have a good 1st division fanbase so why are we not making a racket?

[Pele_Is_God]

We ain't going to win the league, Leigh Griffiths will win it for Dundee alone we don't have a prolific goalscorer. I would be happy with 3rd place and the Alba Cup. On a side note I heard today John Robertson is being lined up as the new Arbroath manager!

[Morgan Spice]

We ain't going to win the league, Leigh Griffiths will win it for Dundee alone we don't have a prolific goalscorer. I would be happy with 3rd place and the Alba Cup. On a side note I heard today John Robertson is being lined up as the new Arbroath manager!

Oh well we aren't going to win the league then because Leigh Griffiths doesn't play for us! Might as well just give up now!

We are only a quarter of the way through the season. We can easily catch up again we just need to get the momentum going and become more consistent.

Some people on here need to have a reality check! We have no god given right to win this league we need to work for it.

[DornochCaley]

We ain't going to win the league, Leigh Griffiths will win it for Dundee alone we don't have a prolific goalscorer. I would be happy with 3rd place and the Alba Cup. On a side note I heard today John Robertson is being lined up as the new Arbroath manager!

Oh well we aren't going to win the league then because Leigh Griffiths doesn't play for us! Might as well just give up now!

We are only a quarter of the way through the season. We can easily catch up again we just need to get the momentum going and become more consistent.

Some people on here need to have a reality check! We have no god given right to win this league we need to work for it.

But thats the point. We expect the players to work and they are not. Thats why we are all so angry.

[CaleyD]

I think it's more than a little unfair to say the players aren't working.....people might have just concerns over ability, but these guys can only go out there and give their best, and for the most part, for most players, I think that's happening. I certainly don't think they're out there thinking "I can't be ersed, so I'm not going to do any work".

As fans, there's certain limits on what we can do to influence the outcome of a game. I sit hear reading reams of p*sh about how fans are entitled to boo, jeer, criticise...or whatever. In itself, that's not the problem, the problem is that these very same people (often in the same post) will rant about players/manager/club not doing their bit or being good enough, and fail to realise that they have/are becoming as much a part of the problem as all the rest.

Here's a really radical idea.....why don't the fans try getting behind the team a bit more and not be so quick to turn on them. I'm not saying it's fans fault we are where we are, and I'm certainly not saying that the players, manager and club don't have any failings.....far from it. We all like to think our ideas are better, our formations are better, that we could get more from the players or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, we have little or no influence on these things on a day to day, week to week basis. What we can influence is the support we give, and only when we've been standing (sitting) out there week after week screaming until our lungs bleed can we then point the finger at others and say "we're doing all we can, it's time for you to up your game".

Criticism is fine, a bit of venting is acceptable....we all do it, and I think it can be quite healthy. However, some of the mindless crap, slaggings and abuse dished out at players, manager etc is quite disgusting, unmerited and uncalled for.

[Renegade]

bizarre team selections

This site needs a "pot...kettle" smiley!

mAYBE

[Renegade]

bizarre team selections

This site needs a "pot...kettle" smiley!

Maybe you should go back and see the formation and team selection I put up for the Falkirk game, compared to Butcher's one. I think you'll see which one was more sensible.

Edit - My formation for that game was -

Esson

Tokely Mihadjuks Munro Djebi-Zadi

Morais Black Kerr Imrie

Barrowman Foran

Bare in mind who was available/unavailable and on-form/off-form at the time. Butcher's was -

Fraser

Mihadjuks Tokely Munro Djebi-Zadi

Imrie Black Kerr McBain

Morais Foran

Edited October 20, 2009 by Renegade

[CaleyD]

How do you know your formation would have resulted in a different outcome?

I put it to you that there is no way you can know the answer to that question and your assertions that you were right and Butcher was wrong don't even so much as have a toe in the real world where the rest of us live.

[Johnboy]

I think it's more than a little unfair to say the players aren't working.....people might have just concerns over ability, but these guys can only go out there and give their best, and for the most part, for most players, I think that's happening. I certainly don't think they're out there thinking "I can't be ersed, so I'm not going to do any work".

As fans, there's certain limits on what we can do to influence the outcome of a game. I sit hear reading reams of p*sh about how fans are entitled to boo, jeer, criticise...or whatever. In itself, that's not the problem, the problem is that these very same people (often in the same post) will rant about players/manager/club not doing their bit or being good enough, and fail to realise that they have/are becoming as much a part of the problem as all the rest.

Here's a really radical idea.....why don't the fans try getting behind the team a bit more and not be so quick to turn on them. I'm not saying it's fans fault we are where we are, and I'm certainly not saying that the players, manager and club don't have any failings.....far from it. We all like to think our ideas are better, our formations are better, that we could get more from the players or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, we have little or no influence on these things on a day to day, week to week basis. What we can influence is the support we give, and only when we've been standing (sitting) out there week after week screaming until our lungs bleed can we then point the finger at others and say "we're doing all we can, it's time for you to up your game".

Criticism is fine, a bit of venting is acceptable....we all do it, and I think it can be quite healthy. However, some of the mindless crap, slaggings and abuse dished out at players, manager etc is quite disgusting, unmerited and uncalled for.

I agree with your comment that "for the most part the players are generally giving their best" but are you seriously suggesting football supporters in Inverness are in some way different from football supporters anywhere else in the country - maybe even anywhere else in the world?

[CaleyD]

I don't believe I offered any comparison between ICT supporters and those of any other team...domestic, or otherwise.

[Johnboy]

So really your bottom line here could be aimed at any supporters of any other club, who's team aren't enjoying much success :

Quote :

Criticism is fine, a bit of venting is acceptable....we all do it, and I think it can be quite healthy. However, some of the mindless crap, slaggings and abuse dished out at players, manager etc is quite disgusting, unmerited and uncalled for.

I just can't see how the support can be blamed in any way for the team's poor run of form at home.

The mindless slaggings etc, are part and parcel of the game, and have been for a long, long time..... Maybe the supporters feel it actually helps the players to give them a bit of stick!

Better to have a few thousand turning up week in, week out to occasionally vent their spleen on the players, management etc, than not turn up at all.

[CaleyD]

Think you're trying too hard to look for an argument that's not there to be had.

I'm not blaming the fans for the current form, but then again, I don't think it's as bad as some would have you believe.

I guess what I'm saying is three things.....

- Things aren't as bad as some people are making out.

- The nature of some of the things being said is only adding to the problem instead of improving it.

- Only when we (the fans) are doing all we can are we in a position to point the fingers at others.

I'm not just talking about what happens on matchdays, I'm on about some of the things being said on here as well.

It's the name calling/personal jibes and sweeping accusations about players/managers commitment I'm having a go at, not the constructive criticism/discussion.

[Caley Stan]

I also agree that most of silent majority are prepared to see TB and MM continue to the end of their contracts, but there is a strong presence on the forum that seems to think we would be better rid of them straight away and as I suggested above, I've yet to hear an argument that convinces me that that would benefit the club.

There might be an argument for getting rid of them before the end of the season depending on just how committed they are to staying with the club in the long term. If we lose touch with the leaders and Butcher intends to leave at the end of his contract then why not start the rebuilding process as soon as possible?

This is a hypothetical scenario of course. For now, i think we should be getting behind the manager and team as much as possible. It's a very tight league and a few wins would see us climb up it very quickly.

[StockholmSyndrome]

I guess what I'm saying is three things.....

- Things aren't as bad as some people are making out.

Quite. We're not dead in the water yet, although things are decidedly mediocre. I for one don't feel things are as bad just now as they were under Brewster, even though they're not really working out as we'd like and we are going backwards as a club. Things were very bad under Brewster and I wouldn't want to go back to that.

- The nature of some of the things being said is only adding to the problem instead of improving it.

- Only when we (the fans) are doing all we can are we in a position to point the fingers at others.

I'm not just talking about what happens on matchdays, I'm on about some of the things being said on here as well.

It's the name calling/personal jibes and sweeping accusations about players/managers commitment I'm having a go at, not the constructive criticism/discussion.

I totally agree. Although I'm not happy with the way things are at the moment, I find the amount of vitriol that some people are directing at Terry Butcher disturbing and uncalled-for. Some people have posted about how they feel he should show respect to the fans. Well, it works both ways, y'know. What about us showing him a bit of respect as well? If people were cursing him out and abusing him all afternoon then I don't blame him for reacting to it. I'm not sure I wouldn't be tempted to do the same.

In the end, I'm not convinced that he's responsible for all the problems with the team: I think the malaise goes much deeper and changing managers again may cause more problems than it solves.

[stevico1]

I guess what I'm saying is three things.....

- Things aren't as bad as some people are making out.

Quite. We're not dead in the water yet, although things are decidedly mediocre. I for one don't feel things are as bad just now as they were under Brewster, even though they're not really working out as we'd like and we are going backwards as a club. Things were very bad under Brewster and I wouldn't want to go back to that.

I fail to see how things are not as bad as they were under Brewster, playing some of the worst football in our history and 2 points from a possible 15 at home.