Butcher and Malpas' contract

[CaleyD]

Played 9....won 3, drawn 3, lost 3 - that's decidedly average, couldn't be any more average.

Compared to Brewsters last 9 games.....8 losses and a win or something along those lines!!!

Not trying to say things are great....and home form is what's letting us down, but we're a long way (thank god) from where we were when Brewster parted company.

[stevico1]

Played 9....won 3, drawn 3, lost 3 - that's decidedly average, couldn't be any more average.

Compared to Brewsters last 9 games.....8 losses and a win or something along those lines!!!

Not trying to say things are great....and home form is what's letting us down, but we're a long way (thank god) from where we were when Brewster parted company.

Yes but Don we were playing SPL opposition then, we are decidedly average against 1st Division opponents now, I am not sure that is any better

[TopSix]

I think it's more than a little unfair to say the players aren't working.....people might have just concerns over ability, but these guys can only go out there and give their best, and for the most part, for most players, I think that's happening. I certainly don't think they're out there thinking "I can't be ersed, so I'm not going to do any work".

As fans, there's certain limits on what we can do to influence the outcome of a game. I sit hear reading reams of p*sh about how fans are entitled to boo, jeer, criticise...or whatever. In itself, that's not the problem, the problem is that these very same people (often in the same post) will rant about players/manager/club not doing their bit or being good enough, and fail to realise that they have/are becoming as much a part of the problem as all the rest.

Here's a really radical idea.....why don't the fans try getting behind the team a bit more and not be so quick to turn on them. I'm not saying it's fans fault we are where we are, and I'm certainly not saying that the players, manager and club don't have any failings.....far from it. We all like to think our ideas are better, our formations are better, that we could get more from the players or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, we have little or no influence on these things on a day to day, week to week basis. What we can influence is the support we give, and only when we've been standing (sitting) out there week after week screaming until our lungs bleed can we then point the finger at others and say "we're doing all we can, it's time for you to up your game".

Criticism is fine, a bit of venting is acceptable....we all do it, and I think it can be quite healthy. However, some of the mindless crap, slaggings and abuse dished out at players, manager etc is quite disgusting, unmerited and uncalled for.

Hats off to you and fair play for getting behind the team vocally in Kirkcaldy.

[PullMyFinger]

Played 9....won 3, drawn 3, lost 3 - that's decidedly average, couldn't be any more average.

Compared to Brewsters last 9 games.....8 losses and a win or something along those lines!!!

Not trying to say things are great....and home form is what's letting us down, but we're a long way (thank god) from where we were when Brewster parted company.

Yes but Don we were playing SPL opposition then, we are decidedly average against 1st Division opponents now, I am not sure that is any better

To be honest, there's not a lot of difference between many of the SPL teams and the top of the First. In fact I'd probably say there are better teams in the First division.

I can see the point you're making but we are certainly no worse now than we were then

[alternative maryhill]

I also agree that most of silent majority are prepared to see TB and MM continue to the end of their contracts, but there is a strong presence on the forum that seems to think we would be better rid of them straight away and as I suggested above, I've yet to hear an argument that convinces me that that would benefit the club.

There might be an argument for getting rid of them before the end of the season depending on just how committed they are to staying with the club in the long term. If we lose touch with the leaders and Butcher intends to leave at the end of his contract then why not start the rebuilding process as soon as possible?

This is a hypothetical scenario of course. For now, i think we should be getting behind the manager and team as much as possible. It's a very tight league and a few wins would see us climb up it very quickly.

I take your point. I worry though, that a manager coming in say three, four months from the end of a disappointing season might not be given a fair crack of the whip if the team didn't start to show some kind of improvement, even though he'd be playing with someone else's signings and having to get to know the team while preparing for competitive games in front of a disillusioned support. I think that would create unnecessary pressure and be unfair on the new manager. If TB wants to walk, fine; I still wouldn't waste the monmey paying off the rest of his contract.

[Renegade]

How do you know your formation would have resulted in a different outcome?

I didn't say that would've been a different outcome, but mine is certainly more sensible, even more so considering Butcher it was the most important game in ICT's short history. Why on Earth did he keep Tokely out of position, which in the end was a factor in his sending off, cause he hadn't the positional sense nor the speed to catch up with anyone getting past him. After his sending off the game was essentially lost. Why was Mihadjuks out of position? He was a centre half, and only a centre half. Why was he played in a postition he's never played before, far less so considering the natural right back was also out of position, in his position. Why was Esson again left out in the place of the medicore Michael Fraser? Would my line up have had a different out? Who knows, but what Butcher went with IMO certainly had an impact on ICT's relegation.

[CaleyD]

Played 9....won 3, drawn 3, lost 3 - that's decidedly average, couldn't be any more average.

Compared to Brewsters last 9 games.....8 losses and a win or something along those lines!!!

Not trying to say things are great....and home form is what's letting us down, but we're a long way (thank god) from where we were when Brewster parted company.

Yes but Don we were playing SPL opposition then, we are decidedly average against 1st Division opponents now, I am not sure that is any better

Had we managed to maintain our SPL Squad then I might be more inclined to agree with where you're coming from.

(Some) Players have had to adapt...and are still doing so.

The Club has had to adapt...and is still doing so.

Unfortunately we have large parts of our support who have not adapted and who are of the opinion that they should not have too and they can still expect "SPL Quality" performances from a Div 1 setup.

It's the old "managing expectations" argument that's cropped up on here a number of times in the last few years. Post-relegation and preseason all we heard was "Bounce Straight Back", "Bounce Straight Back", "Bounce Straight Back"....so part of me totally understands that this is what fans expect and that current results are just not good enough to achieve that.

However, I also expect most fans to be able to think for themselves and realise that all the promises made mean nothing when they aren't being backed up by actions. That's not a reference to action on the pitch, it's reference to the fact that we lost a good few players we could ill afford to lose if we were to have a realistic go at bouncing straight back and NO money was made available for transfer fees to bring in comparable replacements. With that in mind....what do people actually expect to be seeing?

If the players on the pitch are not good enough....that's not their fault, they've been asked to go out there and do a job and so long as they're trying then we can ask no more.

If the manager doesn't have the players/resources to allow him to fulfil the promises....that's not his fault. He can only use what's available, and given he never had a penny to spend in transfer fees, I don't know what kind of players people were expecting to see.

Perhaps if we took just a moment to appreciate what we do have on the park, instead of beating them up because they're not what we expected, then we might just all enjoy our football a touch better and perhaps if we put a little less pressure on the players then they'll open up and show us that, like past ICT teams, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

I could be totally wrong and it might not make the slightest bit of difference, but right now it's the only real option available to the fans, so it has to be worth a go, surely?

[stevico1]

Played 9....won 3, drawn 3, lost 3 - that's decidedly average, couldn't be any more average.

Compared to Brewsters last 9 games.....8 losses and a win or something along those lines!!!

Not trying to say things are great....and home form is what's letting us down, but we're a long way (thank god) from where we were when Brewster parted company.

Yes but Don we were playing SPL opposition then, we are decidedly average against 1st Division opponents now, I am not sure that is any better

Had we managed to maintain our SPL Squad then I might be more inclined to agree with where you're coming from.

(Some) Players have had to adapt...and are still doing so.

The Club has had to adapt...and is still doing so.

Unfortunately we have large parts of our support who have not adapted and who are of the opinion that they should not have too and they can still expect "SPL Quality" performances from a Div 1 setup.

It's the old "managing expectations" argument that's cropped up on here a number of times in the last few years. Post-relegation and preseason all we heard was "Bounce Straight Back", "Bounce Straight Back", "Bounce Straight Back"....so part of me totally understands that this is what fans expect and that current results are just not good enough to achieve that.

However, I also expect most fans to be able to think for themselves and realise that all the promises made mean nothing when they aren't being backed up by actions. That's not a reference to action on the pitch, it's reference to the fact that we lost a good few players we could ill afford to lose if we were to have a realistic go at bouncing straight back and NO money was made available for transfer fees to bring in comparable replacements. With that in mind....what do people actually expect to be seeing?

If the players on the pitch are not good enough....that's not their fault, they've been asked to go out there and do a job and so long as they're trying then we can ask no more.

If the manager doesn't have the players/resources to allow him to fulfil the promises....that's not his fault. He can only use what's available, and given he never had a penny to spend in transfer fees, I don't know what kind of players people were expecting to see.

Perhaps if we took just a moment to appreciate what we do have on the park, instead of beating them up because they're not what we expected, then we might just all enjoy our football a touch better and perhaps if we put a little less pressure on the players then they'll open up and show us that, like past ICT teams, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

I could be totally wrong and it might not make the slightest bit of difference, but right now it's the only real option available to the fans, so it has to be worth a go, surely?

Don I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Butcher has done nothing to suggest to me he can turn it round on the playing side ,in fact he has never done it at any club he has been at.

You said that if the players are not good enough its not their fault, who's is it then, the guy that signed them. Ok he's not been given money but there are other managers in the division that pick up players of free transfers that do the job, the vast majority of his signings have been very poor.

Don't know of the top of my head how many Butcher has signed since he got here but I think that he has got more wrong than right, a club of limited resources needs a better judge of players than that.

And like I said before it is not expectations as I never expected to bounce back, in fact I think more than the fans having high expectations Butcher thought it would be far easier than it has been and he is now struggling badly.

But like you said we have no other option at present.

Edited October 21, 2009 by stevico1

[CaleyD]

Steve, I'm trying not to allow this to drift into a discussion on defending/chastising the merits of players or the management.

You know as well as I do that our current position is not a product of the current team on the park or the man who's leading them....yet these are the people out there on the front line carrying the can.

How many players and/or managers do we have to go through before people realise that the problem lies elsewhere and that it will never change so long as we focus our anger on the people who are just out there trying to do the best they can, taking the flak for a situation of someone else's making?

When you have a tree with diseased roots then it's never going to produce healthy branches or fruit. You can keep wasting your energy throwing away the fruit and pruning the branches, but nothing is going to improve until you deal with the problem at it's source.

[PullMyFinger]

What we need is someone to win the Euromillions Jackpot.

I'll volunteer if no-one else wants to do it. Jeez, some people.

[stevico1]

Steve, I'm trying not to allow this to drift into a discussion on defending/chastising the merits of players or the management.

You know as well as I do that our current position is not a product of the current team on the park or the man who's leading them....yet these are the people out there on the front line carrying the can.

How many players and/or managers do we have to go through before people realise that the problem lies elsewhere and that it will never change so long as we focus our anger on the people who are just out there trying to do the best they can, taking the flak for a situation of someone else's making?

When you have a tree with diseased roots then it's never going to produce healthy branches or fruit. You can keep wasting your energy throwing away the fruit and pruning the branches, but nothing is going to improve until you deal with the problem at it's source.

Good post Don

Yes I am fully aware who is responsible for our current position but that will not be changing in the near future, they got away with the Brewster fiasco they will get away with the Niculae fiasco and no doubt the next fiasco they create.

Going back to Butcher, agree that whether I like it or not we have got Butcher him and the only thing to do is get fully behind him and the players and I will be doing that