New League Cup format

[Yngwie]

From BBC. For many teams this will largely replace pre-season friendlies. Thoughts?

 

Scottish football will next season launch a revamped League Cup with a group stage and bonus-point system.

The Scottish Professional Football League will also reintroduce a two-week winter break in January.

The group stage will involve all 38 teams not involved in European competition, plus the winners of the Highland League and Lowland League.

"The new format marks an exciting new chapter for the competition," said SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster.

"It sees Scottish football leading the way with a number of innovations."

There will be eight groups of five teams playing each other once in a round-robin format, to take place across five July dates (16, 20, 23, 27 and 30) and will use the traditional three points for a win and one point for a draw model.

However, in what the SPFL believes will be a first in world football, all drawn matches will go straight to a penalty shoot-out, with the winner awarded a bonus point.

Eight group winners and the four best runners-up progress to the second round, when they are joined by the four clubs competing in Europe, and then revert to a traditional knockout format.

[RiG]

Fairly on the the fence with this one. Not averse to changing things around but I would prefer to do away with the 'regionalisation'. This would be a good chance to see ICT (for example) playing some teams that we don't often get to face but instead we are likely to be paired up with Ross County (for even more derbies which have long since lost a lot of their appeal), Aberdeen and the Dundee sides. All a bit boring really. Potentially playing the likes of Peterhead, Elgin or Brora would be quite good but I think part of the beauty of any Cup competition is that you could face just about anyone. I think 'fixing' who you can and can't face detracts from that. 

I also think that having all the games in such close proximity to one another will reduce crowds at a time when a lot of people are on holiday and shelling out for so many games in a short space of time will put people off. And from a selfish point of view, because of the 'regionalisation' of the competition it's unlikely I'll be able to get to most of the games being down south which is a shame especially if we ended up playing a side which is somewhat more 'unique' than most.

Excluding the European qualifiers from the tournament until the latter stages is odd too. They need match practice to get up to speed but all the other teams in Scotland will be tied up in this competition in July so no one will be free for friendlies so they'll need to look further afield for matches to get up to match fitness.

Getting BT Sport on board is good, however I note again that the SPFL decline to say how much the deal is worth, and I quite like the penalty shoot out after a draw at the end of a game.

I'm intrigued by the proposals but certainly not jumping up and down with excitement.

Edited December 8, 2015 by RiG

[bdu98196]

Sounds like typical Scottish football trying to create an overly complex structure and model. The lower league teams already play regionalised in the Challenge cup, so think another regionalised format will be too boring for many. The groups need to be an open draw, where potentially you could get a group of all SPFL or anotehr or lower league - fans wont turn out if its a big boy plus 4 minnows.

If they really want the League cup taken seriously it needs a Euro place for the winners and it doesnt indicate the games should be less spread out with the final completed before winter break which I think it needs to be.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

3 hours ago, RiG said:

Excluding the European qualifiers from the tournament until the latter stages is odd too. They need match practice to get up to speed but all the other teams in Scotland will be tied up in this competition in July so no one will be free for friendlies so they'll need to look further afield for matches to get up to match fitness.

For me, one of the functions of starting the season earlier would be to reduce the chance of our teams getting pumped out of Europe as a result of being under-cooked. This re-vamped LC format doesn't deliver that. Indeed, if you go out of Europe early, everyone else is getting competitive football, while you kick your heels.

I am sure that if they tried really hard our authorities could make it more obvious that they don't give a toss about most clubs, but I'm not sure how.

[Kingsmills]

4 hours ago, RiG said:

Fairly on the the fence with this one. Not averse to changing things around but I would prefer to do away with the 'regionalisation'. This would be a good chance to see ICT (for example) playing some teams that we don't often get to face but instead we are likely to be paired up with Ross County (for even more derbies which have long since lost a lot of their appeal), Aberdeen and the Dundee sides. All a bit boring really. Potentially playing the likes of Peterhead, Elgin or Brora would be quite good but I think part of the beauty of any Cup competition is that you could face just about anyone. I think 'fixing' who you can and can't face detracts from that. 

I also think that having all the games in such close proximity to one another will reduce crowds at a time when a lot of people are on holiday and shelling out for so many games in a short space of time will put people off. And from a selfish point of view, because of the 'regionalisation' of the competition it's unlikely I'll be able to get to most of the games being down south which is a shame especially if we ended up playing a side which is somewhat more 'unique' than most.

Excluding the European qualifiers from the tournament until the latter stages is odd too. They need match practice to get up to speed but all the other teams in Scotland will be tied up in this competition in July so no one will be free for friendlies so they'll need to look further afield for matches to get up to match fitness.

Getting BT Sport on board is good, however I note again that the SPFL decline to say how much the deal is worth, and I quite like the penalty shoot out after a draw at the end of a game.

I'm intrigued by the proposals but certainly not jumping up and down with excitement.

Suggestion is that BT Sports are paying two million pounds a season for the additional rights. Roughly £50,000 per participating club.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

£50k means there is no doubt about our support and participation 

[+DoofersDad]

Can't believe too many fans are going to be enthused by this. Presumably the club will have to take all games seriously if they aspire to reach the more lucrative later stages and therefore will still need a program of friendlies  

Perhaps to encourage some sort of atmosphere at the games and to encourage season ticket sales, the club could include entry to these games within the season ticket price?

[Kingsmills]

I don't know about other clubs but, while that is a good and fair idea in principle, margins at ICT are so tight we probably can't afford to do that.

[CaleyD]

RiG, the 8 Premiership teams participating in the group stages are divided one into each of the groups....so you're not going to get any more derby games, certainly for top level teams.

[bdu98196]

Thats why I dont like the idea, while ICT may benefit from being favourites in a group, its just yet again a monopolisation for the biggest teams - kind of like the structure of the Champions League or Euro/WC qualifiers. If its regionalised and each group has 5 teams with one being a 'big' club it wont be long til the same matches are repeated regullarly due to the limited numbers of clubs to start with. If anything I would like to see an open draw for the groups regardless if we had to travel to Stranraer or Berwick or even got 4 SPFL clubs, then it has the potential to throw up a surprise and increase media and fan interest.

[CaleyD]

Good idea....ICTFC away to Stranraer, the perfect way to increase crowds and fan interest..!!

[RiG]

44 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

RiG, the 8 Premiership teams participating in the group stages are divided one into each of the groups....so you're not going to get any more derby games, certainly for top level teams.

Ah, I see. It will be interesting to see how the regionalisation of the teams works. Given how few teams are in our 'area' of the country I wonder how much variation in opponents we will get which I think is key for this kind of competition which has normally tended to see similar fixtures thrown up a lot. Look at the recent game v Ross county. A chance to get into the Semi Final of the League Cup final, a derby match and little over 3,000 folk turned up. I guess we will end up pooled with the Tayside and Angus teams.

[12th Man]

I would say it offers more protection to the top championship teams instead of Hibs and Rangers playing against the likes of Celtic Aberdeen etc early on. The bigger clubs stay in for longer creating more interest.

Not a bad change, from the norm.

Edited December 8, 2015 by 12th Man

[Scotty]

Its innovative and different, so fair play to the league for actually trying something less mundane. Whilst I dont overly endorse the idea of regionalisation due to the familiarity factor, it makes sense when you think about it ... if we, an established premiership side, baulk at the idea of travelling the length of the country then how much worse must it be for some of the lower league sides with even less budget or resources. As for timing ... where else would you fit it in? The season is now basically a 10 month one (AUG-MAY) and on two out of every 4 years there is either a World Cup or a Euro Championship to worry about (albeit not a big worry in Scotland for a while).

The format seems to be harking back to the early days of this competition where it was played in a group stage too, but in those days it was the top clubs distributed in one set of groups and the lower teams in another ensuring some of the lower league teams reached the quarters .... it will be interesting to see how it goes.

I also agree that the winners of both of our cup competitions should get a Euro spot. I always thought it was UEFA who had moved the goalposts here but apparently it is within the purview of the national association (SFA) to grant a Euro spot to the winners of both the primary and secondary cup competitions. They removed it in 1995 when our co-efficient dropped badly and we only had a few teams in Europe and it was felt that the winners of this competition typically qualified from the league or Scottish Cup anyway. The fact that lower division Raith Rovers were the last qualifiers to get in this way apparently didnt seem ironic to them.

As someone who has supported ICT since day one I like the idea that this could be another way into Europe, especially for smaller teams given that the timing means the higher ranked teams may not yet be firing on all cylinders and it might afford a greater chance for a smaller team to have a 'Roy of the [Raith] Rovers' type run to the final and then to the European stage (where Rovers incidentally went out to eventual winners Bayern Munich in the 3rd round !!! - better than many teams nowadays [including us]). If we (Scotland) accept our lot as a European minnow these days then allowing the winners of the cup, and their fans the adventure and romance of the cup in this way might prove enjoyable.     

 

[Alex MacLeod]

 

2 hours ago, CaleyD said:

RiG, the 8 Premiership teams participating in the group stages are divided one into each of the groups....so you're not going to get any more derby games, certainly for top level teams.

1 hour ago, RiG said:

Ah, I see. It will be interesting to see how the regionalisation of the teams works. Given how few teams are in our 'area' of the country I wonder how much variation in opponents we will get which I think is key for this kind of competition which has normally tended to see similar fixtures thrown up a lot. Look at the recent game v Ross county. A chance to get into the Semi Final of the League Cup final, a derby match and little over 3,000 folk turned up. I guess we will end up pooled with the Tayside and Angus teams.

I cant understand the regionalisation thing. How do you regionalise when so many league teams are in central belt and yet six of the top twelve are north of the Forth. If a case arose where none of those six qualify for europe then they are going to head six of the groups. The remaining teams north of Forth, Raith, Dunfermline, East Fife, Brechin, Montrose, Arbroath, Peterhead, Elgin and one HL team. How can regionalisation come about from that?

[Scotty]

14 minutes ago, Alex MacLeod said:

I cant understand the regionalisation thing. How do you regionalise when so many league teams are in central belt and yet six of the top twelve are north of the Forth. If a case arose where none of those six qualify for europe then they are going to head six of the groups. The remaining teams north of Forth, Raith, Dunfermline, East Fife, Brechin, Montrose, Arbroath, Peterhead, Elgin and one HL team. How can regionalisation come about from that?

The wording (taken from the Scotsman) is crucial ... "Group stage draw seeded and, where practicable, regionalised. One Premiership team in each group."

The Glasgow Evening Times expands a bit more: "The draw for the group stages will be seeded and will take into account this season's league placings (ie. Rangers and Hibs would be regarded as seeds in the event that they win promotion this season) but in practice true regional groupings may be difficult to achieve. Similar to Uefa draw procedures, the SPFL will simply stipulate that teams are not forced to travel huge distances."

The 'penalty point' is very similar to Ice Hockey although even there they play extra-time ('overtime') before going to the penalty shootout. 3pts for a win, 2pts for a 'winning draw' and 1 pt for a 'losing draw' ... seems to work ok. 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Have we all given up on a European place ? There is a long way to go in the league and we can hold on to the Scottish Cup.

[Scotty]

nope. not given up, thats different than saying there should be a european spot for the winners of the League Cup too. 

I think it was around the time that Caley played St Johnstone in the (Scottish) cup many moons ago, but I do recall a few folk saying things like 'we are only 4 games away from Europe' and stuff like that. We were never going to make it there but its mere existence as a possible prize made the so-called romance of the cup real. Why shouldnt as many clubs from the whole of Scottish football be allowed to dream ... if only for a minute (or 90). 

[Alex MacLeod]

3 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Have we all given up on a European place ? There is a long way to go in the league and we can hold on to the Scottish Cup.

We will always endeavour to win a European place be it through the league position or cup but I wouldn't expect us to get there every season

[wynthank15]

Back to the future or Groundhog Day come to mind I've already trashed this meaningless tournament elsewhere so wont drone on again other than to say it is pointless unless or until a European spot is given to the winners.

[+jagster]

It didn't seem meaningless when nick Ross scored against hearts or when we marched out at the final v Aberdeen 

we should grab any chance to get a major trophy as the league is extremely unlikely to ever come our way 

[DEANO96]

I seem to be one of very few that is glad to see a change! The league cup is another chance for a trophy and some excitement! The only thing I ever had against the competition was that you only had to win one game and you were in the quarterfinals...which is far to short!

having the group stage makes the competition far more interesting and more competitive! Plus a chance to see us play against one or two other teams! My only disappointment with it is all the group games being played before the season starts! Why not do the groups through September and October, move 2/3 league games and have the cup games as weekends to attract more punters and big up the competition! Yes it means league games being midweek but there's 38 league games a season, moving 2/3 to improve a major cup competition shouldn't be a problem! 

The regionalisation is a good idea as it would mean we likely play county, Elgin, highland league winner and either st Johnstone or Aberdeen! 

And for those who want to see a European place for the winner then keep dreaming cause there's no chance of that happening anytime soon! 

Edited December 10, 2015 by DEANO96

[RiG]

3 hours ago, jagster said:

It didn't seem meaningless when nick Ross scored against hearts or when we marched out at the final v Aberdeen 

we should grab any chance to get a major trophy as the league is extremely unlikely to ever come our way 

Of course not but it's a tournament that if you go out in the early stages most fans will simply shrug their shoulders and get on with things. Until you get to the latter stages most fans don't give a damn about it.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

1 hour ago, DEANO96 said:

The regionalisation is a good idea as it would mean we likely play county, Elgin, highland league winner and either st Johnstone or Aberdeen! 

Seeding and the exclusion of the European qualifiers means that it is unlikely two premiership clubs will be drawn together in the same group. In fact this season neither Aberdeen or St Johnstone (or us for that matter) would have been involved in the group stages.

[DEANO96]

1 hour ago, HawkeyeTheGnu said:

Seeding and the exclusion of the European qualifiers means that it is unlikely two premiership clubs will be drawn together in the same group. In fact this season neither Aberdeen or St Johnstone (or us for that matter) would have been involved in the group stages.

No which is why they'll regionalise it where possible. They wouldn't have suggested that idea in the press release if they didn't have a plan in place for when such occurrences happen! 

Edited December 10, 2015 by DEANO96