Where Have AllThe Fans Gone ?

[+Wanderer]

Funnily enough Richard, when I brought up the subject of "communication" with Mike Smith the last time I met him, that was the exact same answer as he gave....and I think that's part of the problem. Until the Trust grow a pair and start worrying more about the fans than upsetting the club then they are nothing but a glorified Supports Club IMO, and that's not what is needed.

I've missed the TCS matchday experience for a while now. Away days being the only opportunity I've had.

I am really astonished at some of the reports that have appeared on here about what it is like to go to see ICT at home. It sounds horrendous and I'm really sorry to hear it. If this was any other entertainment business I'm fairly sure the shutters would have been down long ago.

The following is an observation from a long way away but I'm wondering if ICT isn't just being run as a few folks' weekend hobby. No business plan, no real progression strategy let alone any sort of profit motive, lacking in even the most basic customer care....just keep it on the tracks and it'll be backslaps, handshakes and right guid swally at the club on a Saturday afternoon. After all, the big boys are haemorrhaging cash so we must be doing ok if we are surviving with meagre resources. Think SPL, act Highland League.

It must give a few local blazers in a small luncheon club pond a sense of real kudos to be associated with brand ICT. I wonder what would happen if one investor made ICT their sole business interest. Make money, keep the customer happy, make money, follow a transparent business plan that we can all measure.

But then I woke up...

[CaleyD]

Until the Trust grow a pair and start worrying more about the fans than upsetting the club then they are nothing but a glorified Supports Club IMO, and that's not what is needed.

It had actually crossed my mind as to why the Trust hadnt approached the club on behalf of the fans before regarding these issues. Maybe its time for a change at the top there then

Not necessarily, but I do think that they (and the members) need to take a long hard look at where priorities lie. What they do, I think they do well, but their should be more to a Supporters Trust than fund raising.

The Trust have been their own worst enemy since they were formed IMO, and my reasons for saying that are well documented on this forum so I'll not go in to them again. The potential for them to be a really effective "voice" is there.

Can you imagine a Trust where every single ICT fan is a member, and how much weight that kind of voice would carry? I can, and there's no reason whatsoever that it shouldn't be the case.

Until that happens then, for the most part the Trust will remain ineffective and toothless, which is a real shame as I had hoped for so much more.

[ictchris]

I think that attendances are down because prices are too high. A few years ago people would come to the games and pay ?20 because SPL football was exciting and new. Now that we have been here for a few seasons that isn't really the case - SPL football in Inverness is routine. Also, given that we have less money for wages than most of the other clubs in the SPL and the dire financial consequences of being relegated from the SPL, we have to play a different sort of football to what we were used to in the SFL. Thus we have football that, while it's of a decent quality compared to what we used to watch in the SFL, isn't exciting and can be frustrating. I don't think it's surprising that fewer people are willing to pay for that.

I think that if we went on a great run and were in the top six crowds would be decent. Perhaps if we were fighting relegation they might also pick up, particularly towards the end of a campaign. If we are going to push into the top six then we'd need to spend money and that would mean either going into debt or attracting investment (which in football terms often mean the same thing, hello Hearts, Gretna, Dundee). Going into debt is not a something that we should follow as a model - we simply aren't a big enough club to countenance 'spending to accumulate'. Few clubs in Scotland are, even Rangers are feeling the financial pinch of having to spend to compete. Attracting investment is difficult as basically you are asking to someone to hand over money and expect no return. There are very few people like that. In most cases it falls flat.

Ideas like building a pub at the ground, building a club shop or securing a city centre retail outlet are all well and good but they require big initial investments and we simply aren't in a position to do that. When it comes down to it, can we afford to throw a couple of hundred grand at building a permanent club shop? Wouldn't that money be better spent on players? How much extra value would we get out of a club shop, how long would it take us to get the money back? Are there really lots and lots of potential customers of our club shop who we are missing out on due to it being the way it is?

I haven't read all of this thread, so apologies if these points have all been made.

[CaleyJulz]

Why dont the club consider a deal for single parents !!!There is no way some single parents on benifits could afford to take their child/children to a game it would cost a huge whack of their money.

I know a few single parents who would just love to take their kids to a game but they cant.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

And the thread goes on and on - loads of concrete criticism but loads of constructive suggestions.

So what do the members of the Supporters Trust say ?

This is going nowhere if we dont push it - Should the Supporters Trust not suggest / "demand" a monthly forum and put 2-3 reps from this forum on it. Lets get together a Standing Agenda - lets put forward the sensible proposals and lets put a thread on here every month with the minutes.

Lets feckin act not whinge.

[caley100]

Yeah, feckin right mate.... i'm voting you on the first ICT supporters trust club liason commitee, we'll call you Rottweiler...

[Joonya]

Perhaps some will chuckle at me saying this but there really is a lot of common sense being spouted on this thread. I hope that Gringo Junior and some peers use the likes of this thread to open up some dialogue with the club. What about a Monthly Fans Forum with a Standing Agenda - the minutes could be relayed back on here.

I for one would be up for a meeting a month with the club. I have no problem with this.

Our intentions as fans/supporters seem to be to assist the club in moving forward, yet we need the club to WANT this added assistance.

I agree the Trust should perhaps speak out more and not settle for a 'we'll look into it' response at meetings. They should push for a solution and force an action. if ideas and questions seem un-realistic and inethical, then at leat all ideas are being considered and not simply pushed to one side.

[Yngwie]

Can you imagine a Trust where every single ICT fan is a member, and how much weight that kind of voice would carry? I can, and there's no reason whatsoever that it shouldn't be the case.

Can you imagine any issue where the fans would agree on their stance? You just have to look through this forum to see the diversity of views on pretty much any topic.

[Scotty]

Lets get together a Standing Agenda - lets put forward the sensible proposals and lets put a thread on here every month with the minutes. Lets feckin act not whinge.

Awaiting confirmation, but hopefully some positive news on this front soon

[CaleyD]

Can you imagine any issue where the fans would agree on their stance? You just have to look through this forum to see the diversity of views on pretty much any topic.

The idea is not that everyone agrees (what a boring world that would be), but that everyone has their say in an organised and structured setup. Where required votes are taken and the Trust then moves forward based on what the majority of people want to see.

Are you happy to see a Supporters Trust which is being controlled by less than 10% of the fan base making decision on your behalf? Do you not think that, at present, the club look at the Trust on that basis and laugh at the thought of them being "the voice of the fans"?

The "fault" doesn't lie solely on the shoulders of those running the trust, it lies on the shoulders of each and every person who sits back saying "shouldn't the Trust be doing this or that" and expects others to do the shouting and complaining on their behalf and then complains when it's not doing things the way they want.

Some might find that a bit of a strange comment coming from me given the basis of statements I have made on the subject, but I tried to do my bit and was shouted down by the very same people who sit in the stand on match days and pull faces and moan when people try to create an atmosphere.....these are the people who are members of the trust and casting votes on what the Trust does or doesn't do....the people you think are "Your Voice" and who you expect to be standing up to the club.....all these people want are "members perks", club shop discounts and invites to social events.

Are they really the kind of people you want making decisions for the fans?

[Scotty]

At the end of the day the supporters trust dont represent the views of all fans because not all the fans are members, just as this website, or the supporters club, or the now defunct members' club doesn't represent the views of all fans either as all fans are not members of any of these organisations or groups.

I dont think there will ever be a situation where all ICT fans are a member of one huge group because, as has been said by others, not everyone has the same views and some will give reasons or excuses (you decide which is the correct wording) not to join or participate in some or all of them.

I was on the committee of the supporters' club for a few years and despite the best efforts and hard work of those involved, a lot of initiatives were met with extreme apathy by fans ... (until they needed a bus to a big away game). I can only imagine that the current organisations (like the trust and the supporters club) suffer the same fate to an extent. I know how many "active" members we have on here and it probably only represents maybe 10% of the fanbase too. If we include "inactive" members, it jumps to over 20% but its still not a majority.

Having said that, I believe that everyone, and each of these avenues into the club has a part to play. We may not represent all fans on here, but I believe the more valid points that are raised on here at times are echoed by those who perhaps dont come on here or are not a member of any organisation associated with the club. Therefore it is vital they are aired and discussed. If we as a website, as well as the trust and the supporters club can talk with one voice on the common points that are raised again and again then maybe some positive change can be affected. Fans will also have to realise though that the club simply cant do everything that is asked of them. If they start listening and communicating again though that will be a huge improvement.

I believe the club do actually want to listen but the problem is getting that door to open just a little. They have seen and heard so much negativity that they have pulled back into the boardroom and barricaded all the doors. I have enjoyed this thread, as well as Gringo Jnr's thread looking for positive ideas. It has brought a lot of decent discussion to the board, and some good ideas and hopefully the club can see that almost everyone is hoping for positive outcomes rather than more problems.

As i alluded to above, we have been urging the club (as has the supporters trust) to reinstate something like "Boardroom Banter" or some other form of Q&A and hopefully, after reading some of the more positive and constructive comments over the last few days (in amongst all the usual stuff) that suggestion will bear some fruit.

[Naelifts]

Its all good stuff. Was extremely worried about Scotty " not even looking to see what games were on " the next time he was in Scotia. I'm glad he has relented as I knew he would. The club would have to be seriously worried if he gave up the cause!

Arbroath tonight............can't wait. This trip evokes such good memories of the good old days

[Scotty]

As i alluded to above, we have been urging the club (as has the supporters trust) to reinstate something like "Boardroom Banter" or some other form of Q&A and hopefully, after reading some of the more positive and constructive comments over the last few days (in amongst all the usual stuff) that suggestion will bear some fruit.

It may be making a comeback ........

http://community.caleythistleonline.com/in...st&p=132692

[CaleyD]

I dont think there will ever be a situation where all ICT fans are a member of one huge group because, as has been said by others, not everyone has the same views and some will give reasons or excuses (you decide which is the correct wording) not to join or participate in some or all of them.

Whilst I'll concede that getting people to participate on a regular basis might prove impossible, I don't agree that there's no way to bring all fans under one umbrella and only when all obstacles have been removed will it happen.

Every Season Ticket Holder, Shareholder, Supporters Club Member, Centenary Club Member etc should, by default, become a Member of the Trust at NO additional cost to themselves, and the door should be open to those who don't fall within any of those categories to apply for free membership.

It's been done at other football clubs and it could be done here if people are willing to think outside the box and step out of their comfort zone.

Where there's the will, there's a way.

[Scotty]

Whilst I'll concede that getting people to participate on a regular basis might prove impossible, I don't agree that there's no way to bring all fans under one umbrella and only when all obstacles have been removed will it happen.

Every Season Ticket Holder, Shareholder, Supporters Club Member, Centenary Club Member etc should, by default, become a Member of the Trust at NO additional cost to themselves, and the door should be open to those who don't fall within any of those categories to apply for free membership.

But it still makes it no more representative if those members don't participate. In that scenario, they may be able to say they are representing 'X' number of thousand supporters but how can they really say that is true when they dont know the views of those supporters because those supporters dont participate in anything. They can only ever represent those fans who participate, if they were to claim something else it would be bull****

Think of it in terms of this website .... its open to all, its free to all, and we welcome all ..... if someone new were to register right now, they would have a member number somewhere in the 3100 range ..... yet, because we prune our member list to keep them realistic and the database less bloated, we only report a total of about 1500 members. If we go one step further and split active and inactive members, then we have less than a thousand 'active' members, and splitting it still further, probably around 500 who have actually posted something ..... We are not representative of the whole support, but we are representative of the 500 or so diehards who post on here ... in the same way as the Trust is representative of those members who choose to participate in meetings, or respond to any surveys they may send out (if they do that).

I like your idea CaleyD, and I can see where you are coming from, but you cannot force people to be a member of any organisation, even by default.

[CaleyD]

So we just don't try then Scotty?

Kinda smacks of hypocrisy when your pedalling the "You have to give it a chance" line for the Boardroom Banter.

A simple Opt-In/Out of Trust Membership box on the application form for all of the things I mentioned above and ditching the Membership fee (which I never, ever agreed with) is all it would take to find out. And whilst you might note get everyone to sign up, and it may take a couple of years for people to buy in to the benefits of having a say, you would end up with a Trust that is far more representative of the fans than it is at the moment.

[Scotty]

No, I 'm not saying you dont give it a try, or that you don't give it a chance, just saying that you cant force everyone to join by default and then claim to be representative of those members who had no choice. Now that you have changed/added to your original idea with the opt in/out clause, it makes more sense.

PS - I dont think I am being hypocritical in the slightest regarding BB - we already have an opt in/out clause here, its called registration and as most questions would come from members of this site, we would indeed be attempting to try and represent those participants by providing a conduit to the club and a means to review the response.

[Guest birdog]

Scotty, CaleyD. Take out a full page ad in the four programs after you get things sorted out. Headline it your club, your voice then ask people who have opinions to register with the site and express them. Problem solved.

[CaleyD]

Apologies for the rant at you, it's just that I get fed up of the "lets find reasons not to do something" instead of the "lets find reasons to do something".

This is something I've been trying to get the Trust to take on board for what seems like forever and all I get is "excuses" and empty promises that they will discuss it further. It was initially raised by me at a Trust AGM, the same AGM where I was heckled from the floor and someone told the Trust to give me a refund of my membership and send me away, and we were told it would be discussed and brought up at the next AGM.....and that never happened.

The Trust may not be representative of all fans, but I do think there's a perception that they are. This is supported by the numerous "Should this not be something the Trust is doing" statements and the fact that my previous discussions with the club on things have always included the "Do you not think that's what the Trust is for" type line.

That's why I get so angry when you see that it's people such as the guy I mentioned at the AGM above who are being represented by the Trust...and the perception is that they represent us all.

We harp on about the club not doing enough to remove obstacles and excuses for people to attend games, but the people doing the shouting are creating the exact same obstacles when it comes down to joining the Trust.

A Trust, by it's very definition, should be acting for the benefit of the person/person listed in their constitution. In our case that is the Supporters of ICT and the Community served by the Club. That's where it differs from a Members Club and the sooner we get beyond the "what's in it for me" attitude and start acting for EVERYONE and welcoming EVERYONE without the need for paying a "Membership Fee" the better. As soon as you ask people for something to join they expect something in return for themselves....let's break that mindset and move forward.

When I talk about the Trust, I'm not talking specifically about the Committee, I'm talking about the Trust as an entity and all those who are members of that entity which are preventing it from realising it's full potential.

So long as the Trust remains small it will remain weak...we can either accept that or we can do something about it. However, as with the club, you need a willingness from within in order to effect change, and that's all I ask for.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Whoa - this can be more simple !!

Get a Monthly forum / meeting - limit the numbers - it could be three/four representatives of the club and three/four representatives of the supporters - one/two from the Trust and one/two from the Forum - the fans reps are not there to promote their own thoughts - they are there to represent the forum.

Then you have a Standing Agenda - made up of the list of usual issues - from the fans and the club - then you discuss each item to look at what has been done, what the fan/club reaction is, what actions could be taken further and who is responsible. Then you can have the Matters Arising at the end and put them all into minutes.

Then you post them on here - hopefully the feedback may be that things have improved -if it is no change then you raise it at the next meeting. At least that way peeple can have their say and it would be up to the reps as to which posts / comments to take to the next meeting.

And lets just concentrate on the non playing side at the meeting.

[alimci]

You just have to look at the number of people who prefer going to Away games to see that the "Matchday Experience" at home just isn't appealing to people these days.

CD, the match experience at Away games is not what it was either. There used be far more singing, far more life, now if the kids aren't there it's like being at a funeral. That, combined with the dire standard of play, does nothing to make you look forward to the game, even if you're still going every fortnight or so.

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Get a Monthly forum / meeting - limit the numbers - it could be three/four representatives of the club and three/four representatives of the supporters - one/two from the Trust and one/two from the Forum - the fans reps are not there to promote their own thoughts - they are there to represent the forum.

Then you have a Standing Agenda - made up of the list of usual issues - from the fans and the club - then you discuss each item to look at what has been done, what the fan/club reaction is, what actions could be taken further and who is responsible. Then you can have the Matters Arising at the end and put them all into minutes.

Then you post them on here - hopefully the feedback may be that things have improved -if it is no change then you raise it at the next meeting. At least that way peeple can have their say and it would be up to the reps as to which posts / comments to take to the next meeting.

And lets just concentrate on the non playing side at the meeting.

You're slipping up IHE - a constructive post, no less. And one I completely agree with. Quick, pass me the smelling salts!

[Guest andrew wallace]

I feel as a supporter that there is no atmosphere at the home games and were not giving much support for the lads, There are a few young boys who sing and give banter, but people like my self would like to join in and give support but we have very little songs, well ones that everyone knows. As we have been in the spl now for this being our 5th season i think we should be having more songs to sing . It would be good to have competitions for the best songs written and they could all be produced into a booklet which caley colud sell and the fans would have a chance to learn some songs and get right behind the boys. It is very frustrating not having any atmosphere at the games dont you think?.

Edited August 28, 2008 by andrew wallace

[tm4tj]

It's all been tried before, but apathy takes over Andrew.

[Kingsmills]

Time and time again.