ICT v Celtic - Sat 4th Feb - Ticket Info

[Alex MacLeod]

Are the prices not agreed by both clubs involved?

Its a difficult one to deal with though. Do they drastically reduce prices in the hope of filling the stadium or do they keep prices up knowing they wont fill the stadium. The fact is, if there was no such thing as segregation we'd probably sell out to Celtic fans. Someone earlier suggested there were 1000 home seats available. Would all those seats be filled if the prices were lower. At the end of the day the club need to maximise income and probably base the prices on expected numbers. If they know they can maximise the away figures at the prices set then thats what they're going to do. Its a shame we're in a situation where we cant fill the home stands with home supporters for such games but thats the way things are. I'm willing to bet though, that if we were to reach a final, we'd have no problem taking a very large contingent to Hampden. All of whom will willingly pay the gate prices set by the SFA.

As a matter of interest the prices for other SPL clubs this weekend are:

Aberdeen ---- £18/£16 ----- Concessions £12/£10

Hibs ------------£20 ----------- " " " " " " " £10

Motherwell ----£15 -----------" " " " £10

Rangers -------£20 ----------- " " " " £13

St Mirren ------£15 ----------- " " " " £10

Hearts are top secret unless I register with their e-ticketing system.

[CaleyD]

Why have you only shown the top prices Alex?

I can assure you that I went through them all and EVERY match has a £5 child ticket available, including Hearts (although a couple are U12). St Mirren even have a £2 ticket available.

I totally appreciate the need to maximise revenue....but it does piss me off when that's taken too far and infuriates me even more when it's then thrown in fans faces that if they don't pay up then we'll just sell seats to the opposition. The club could make a decent amount from the game AND still look after their own. After all, this is almost certainly a "bonus" in terms of the income that was budgeted for the season...is it really so important that we get £70,000 instead of say £50,000 (purely theoretical figures)???

I understand that the same price needs to be charged for the same seats in either end and that causes some issues in operating the usual family section, but why not use the West Stand to offer something that's better value for OUR fans. Make it the Family Section and charge £10 adult, £5 Child. Do it because it's the right thing to do and don't be handing it to the opposition because we can squeeze more money out of them.

What value do we place on an extra 1000 HOME fans and the support that gives the team?

Don't get me wrong, I'm of the opinion that Inverness does not give ICT the support it deserves, but sometimes we make it far too easy for people to make the decision to stay at home.

When it comes down to it though, whatever way you try and justify the prices, the fact remains that ICT Fans (and some of them I would class as fairly die hard in the past) are deciding not to attend because they feel the price is not justifiable. If the die hards are turning their back on matches because of price, how on earth do we expect to attract new fans? Cup games have, as far as I can remember, always been cheaper because they were seen as a way to draw in new fans, get them caught up in the cup atmosphere and hope they come back more regularly....a philosophy that has long since been thrown out the window, and which is only adding to the long list of things that are killing the game.

[Alex MacLeod]

CD, I left out the child prices because not every game operates such and because there is a variation in classifying a child. Some clubs its under 12 some its under 10. One or two even let under 5's go free. The majority are equal in classifying concessions. Under 18 and OAP / Student.

I understand and agree with all you say but at the same time I understand the need, in the current climate, to maximise income. Even I have to cut back on my football attendances because cost is outstripping income.

[CaleyD]

Doesn't get away from the fact that ALL other fixtures make some kind of effort to provide tickets for a variety of budgets....we have a flat rate £20/£15 throughout and there's no excuse for it, IMO.

It's all fair and well to play the "in the current climate" card....but it does nothing but fuel the viscous circle that is dragging the game down. When/how do we break that circle if we continue to sell out to the opposition at the expense of building our own base? What would happen if that option was no longer there? Who would the club be looking to then to dig them out of the chit?

Clubs constantly go on about how hard it is to attract fans away from the top 2 and get them following the local team....yet here we are handing them everything they want on a plate.

How much does the pound made today cost us in the future?

[Huisdean]

If indeed, there are no child prices for this game, then that is pretty poor and I agree with the views expressed by CD.

Longer term, I think allclubs but especially ICT need to look at their pricing structure to attract more fans and reduce prices for certain "less attractive" games. However, the problem with that is how that impacts on season ticket holders of which I am one, as if you are not careful, you could end up attending all matches and pay less than a season ticket holder. To be honest, that does not matter to me but it would to some people and I know how important the season ticket money is to the club.

Attendances this season are dipping hugely at all clubs so fresh ideas are needed to address this and the top one for me is price, quite how it can be done is another thing but worth a debate on a new topic?

[Sorted]

Fully support the club charging £15 for concessions in this game. Make as much money out of the travelling support as they possibly can and invest it back in the club.

Rangers made it £5 because they were at home and have a huge capacity the can't fill at the moment. Totally different issue.

Pretty certain the away end will sell out and the club need to take advantage of this situation.

The usual 'turn up for the big game brigade' from our support can bleat all they want but I have little sympathy for this viewpoint. Season tickets for kids are cheap. Concessions at most cup games are cheap. If you are a committed fan that goes every week, buy one less DS/WII/X Box game and buy a half season ticket for £25/50. You can see heaps of games for that.

Appreciate concessions cover more than kids but needs must. The thought of selling tickets for £5 to the OF is ridiculous!

[CaleyD]

The thing is, it's not the "turn up for the big game" brigade that are bleating. It's people who are there week in week out supporting the club.

When was the last time these people were rewarded for their support by way of a free cup game as part of the season ticket or the like?

There's only so far you can squeeze the loyal fans before they too start disappearing, and the fact that we don't appear to be getting even the core support along for this game demonstrates that this point has been reached. What's worse is that instead of identifying this issue and addressing it the reaction seems to be "Screw you, we'll just sell the tickets to the opposition instead".

As I said already, if the club didn't want to give reductions to visiting fans then all they had to do was limit offers to the West Stand. Make it available to priority groups so that those who do support the club regularly get first dibs and everyone is a winner.

I must admit I find your thoughts on this rather surprising given your recent opinions elsewhere on fans standing together to take the game back and rid it of the things that are discouraging people from attending. I'd say that excessive prices do far more to discourage people than searches....no?

[Sorted]

Interesting you link the two issues. Can't see how you can possibly associate the abuse of power/control with the freedom of choice to purchase or not?

Back on topic......

Agree that the club should continue to give offers for those who support the club. Suggest they are focussed on less high profile games though. Pretty bad business practice to give away your highest value commodity when there are many more opportunities to provide incentives. Offers such as 'Bring A Friend' or 'Child For £1' can be used at lower profile league games. Of course, the demand is significantly less on those occasions and perhaps those being 'victimised' by the arrangements for the Celtic game won't be so keen to see Dunfermline at home?

As I understand it, any form of concession offered to home support must also be offered to the away fans? Madness in a game like this.

[CaleyD]

Freedom of choice to purchase only exists if the product is affordable in the first place. I wouldn't say that the over-pricing is an abuse of power, but I do think it is short sighted and does nothing to build for the long term.

As I have said already, I get the whole "maximising" income thing....but there's a point at which it has to be accepted that it does more harm than good. Matches against Celtic stopped being High Profile a long time ago for ICT....in fact, there's no such thing as a high profile match involving any SPL teams given the number of times they play each other a season....that will be part of the reason they are no longer the draw they once were and why it's not only the "Big Game Charlies" that are staying away but the regular fans, the fans that could once be depended upon, are staying away also. These people no longer consider a 5th round match v Celtic to be worth paying a premium to see....even if we have tried to roll out the "Remember Feb 8th 2000" hype card.

It's all about finding the balance. Those who regularly support the club should not be left feeling ripped-off or unappreciated, your turn up when they can and pay at the gate supporter should be no better/worse off, you should be accessible to potential future fans who do see it as a big game worth attending...let's face it, a good cup performance and the atmosphere that comes with it will be more likely to bring them back than a dull run of the mill match v Dunfermline or whoever.

I think what's hacked me off the most is this attitude that "If ICT fans won't pay then screw them, we'll sell to Celtic". First thoughts should be how do we do something to bring our OWN fans through the gate, not how do we get more away fans in there.

Club must charge home and away fans the same for comparable seats....hence my suggestion that they could do so using the West Stand without the need to offer it to Away Fans. Heck, if they wanted too offset the reduced ticket prices in the West Stand then they could add £5 on to the cost for the Main Stand.....they seem to get away with that for the league, don't see why it couldn't/shouldn't be done for Cup Games.

[old caley girl]

Buying one ticket at £20/15 seems ok at face value but for a family of 4 thats £70 plus travel (we dont all live in Inverness you know), food etc. In the current economic climate I think folk are voting with their feet. Of course you can sit at home and watch it on the telly for nowt and on speaking to a lot of folk on saturday I think thats what a lot are having to do. may not be a popular point of view but personally would have rathered that it had been priced at £10 for kids, £15 oaps/students and maybe £22/23 for adults.Crowds at home games seem to be going down and down and something has got to be done thats for sure. Took the bus down to the stadium on saturday and could overhear a lot of moans about this.

I can see where the club are coming from here economically but agree with Caley D that perhaps we are at the point of the more harm than good scenario.

Slightly off topic but Parkhead is the only away game we dont even think about going to because of the prices. £26 each for me and a 16yr old still at school and then £17 for a child plus travel and food is far too expensive for 90 mins entertainment.

Edited January 31, 2012 by old caley girl

[SMEE]

"Slightly off topic but Parkhead is the only away game we dont even think about going to because of the prices. £26 each for me and a 16yr old still at school and then £17 for a child plus travel and food is far too expensive for 90 mins entertainment"

Exactly....i think theres one reason and one reason only why attendances are in decline. Admission Prices are shockingly expensive for what you get. Then again, someone has to cover the costs of the excessive wages in the game in general.

[gingerjaggy]

i dont think u have to give the same deals for the away fans as celtic do concessions for students for home fans but for away fans i have to pay full adult price because they dont do concessions for away fans students so i say reduce some home prices for the kids and give the old firm fans the bumper prices they are going to pay it as 'they are the best fans in the world'

[Sorted]

Freedom of choice to purchase only exists if the product is affordable in the first place. I wouldn't say that the over-pricing is an abuse of power, but I do think it is short sighted and does nothing to build for the long term.

As I have said already, I get the whole "maximising" income thing....but there's a point at which it has to be accepted that it does more harm than good. Matches against Celtic stopped being High Profile a long time ago for ICT....in fact, there's no such thing as a high profile match involving any SPL teams given the number of times they play each other a season....that will be part of the reason they are no longer the draw they once were and why it's not only the "Big Game Charlies" that are staying away but the regular fans, the fans that could once be depended upon, are staying away also. These people no longer consider a 5th round match v Celtic to be worth paying a premium to see....even if we have tried to roll out the "Remember Feb 8th 2000" hype card.

It's all about finding the balance. Those who regularly support the club should not be left feeling ripped-off or unappreciated, your turn up when they can and pay at the gate supporter should be no better/worse off, you should be accessible to potential future fans who do see it as a big game worth attending...let's face it, a good cup performance and the atmosphere that comes with it will be more likely to bring them back than a dull run of the mill match v Dunfermline or whoever.

I think what's hacked me off the most is this attitude that "If ICT fans won't pay then screw them, we'll sell to Celtic". First thoughts should be how do we do something to bring our OWN fans through the gate, not how do we get more away fans in there.

Club must charge home and away fans the same for comparable seats....hence my suggestion that they could do so using the West Stand without the need to offer it to Away Fans. Heck, if they wanted too offset the reduced ticket prices in the West Stand then they could add £5 on to the cost for the Main Stand.....they seem to get away with that for the league, don't see why it couldn't/shouldn't be done for Cup Games.

This the fundamental problem with our attendances at TCS. For far too many people, the whole top flight football scenario has now become mundane hence our continual inability to sell out the home support sections for (what I still and always will class as) a high profile game. Games like this will not be with us all the time and to think that they will be smacks of arrogance.

The economics of a £5 concession don't stack up. Even if you can sell three times as many tickets we will incur increased costs in stewarding and policing. in addition we do not have the infrastructure to deal with any catering spin off should this be offered. Don't even know if it is of any benefit to the club anyway!

Appreciate that £15 is not cheap. But some that I have heard moaning think nothing about spending fortunes on computer games or £6 for a tub of popcorn at the VUE. Life is full of choices and if some have higher priorities with their money so be it. That is what choice is all about.

The issue about the price of football is separate. It has moved way beyond where it was once pitched and won't come back. Why? Because as long as there are clubs stupid enough to pay obscene wages the punters will get fleeced. How we change that is difficult and I, for one, have no answer.

What I will say is, that in the present climate taking all factors into account, Saturday's admission prices are not bad. The club will get some solid income and those that choose to prioritise can sacrifice something else for a ticket.

Remember a concession is less than two packets of fags, less than four pints of Stella, a cinema ticket and a packet of popcorn and less than a quarter of what many people pay for SKY TV. All of these seem affordable to the majority therefore you can only assume that the ticket is too.

If your dilemma is - "Football on my own and a few pints" or "Football with the wee one" then that is a solely choice for the punter not the fault of the club.

I want all six of us to go to Dubai at Easter but the chances are four of us will go to Spain. That's my choice not the fault of the holiday companies.

[CaleyD]

I totally get all that, but digging your heals in and ignoring the fact that you are driving away your own fans, or failing to realise that you are no longer competing with the other forms of entertainment on offer isn't going to make it any better in the long term and will only hasten the demise.

We can go around with the attitude that "if people choose to spend money elsewhere then hey, ho" or we can try and compete and win back some of that spend...not just for one game, but over the longer term. That doesn't have to mean accepting a reduced income, but it does mean we need to take some time to think about what we do and how we structure it so we are catering for as many of our OWN fans as possible.

ICT don't have it all wrong, our season ticket options are among the best in the league...so it does surprise me a little that the club should work so hard to bring those people in on a regular basis and then effectively show them a big fat two fingers when the OF come to town. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but that's how some people feel about it.

I'm a great believer that sometimes you just have to do what's right...something which ICT are not beyond realising. You just have to look at the offer they are giving following the St Johnstone postponement and them offering Hogg the new contract. Neither of these things makes the slightest bit of financial sense, but the good will that will come as a result of such actions is priceless.

[old caley girl]

Sorted surely if you go for the football with the wee one option then you are giving the club fans for the future which the club will surely need. I can assure you that my sky package for a month or a family ticket with popcorn is much cheaper than a family ticket for this game!

Agree with Caley D that the family section offers great value to families for season tickets and I think thats how folk maybe find the cup prices hard to jsutify in comparison.

Edited January 31, 2012 by old caley girl

[Joe DiMaggio]

Our prices hav always been a joke. Even in the first division it would cost a child £14-15 to pay in to the North Stand on the day (£20 in the Main stand?) Over in Dingwall a child can walk up and pay in for £3!

[Sorted]

Appear to be on a loser here !

Suppose it's not to be unexpected when you're not in the 'next to nothing' camp.

Not 'digging my heals heels in' CD just giving you a clear steer on why I have the viewpoint I do. Every day in life you hear people talk about the things they can't afford to do whilst making choices to do other things. Human nature I suppose. Same as the 'it's all right for you' viewpoint when it most cases it's not really it's just a choice scenario.

Joe, as stated perviously, I agree that there is considerable scope for offers and incentives to be delivered throughout the season. These need to be pushed further and I hope they will be. That said, I doubt you'll ever see the day when a child can walk in to Victoria Park and pay £3 to see a cup game versus Celtic?

OGC, I pay £72 per month for SKY (full buhna I know!) and that's my choice. Accept that I may have exaggerated the price of the cinema but it is still very expensive (food is ridiculous!).

In conclusion, I still belive you guys are using the wrong game to promote this approach. Club needs cash and needs to make hay when the sunshines even if that means asking a bit more from the home combine than in other fields!

[ICTPaisley]

When can a kid under 16 afford to pay £15 to watch a football match. They aren't allowed to work so do they just save their lunch money over a few days to pay for it then.

[ICTPaisley]

Our prices hav always been a joke. Even in the first division it would cost a child £14-15 to pay in to the North Stand on the day (£20 in the Main stand?) Over in Dingwall a child can walk up and pay in for £3!

I used to get into the terracing for £3 as an under 16 in the first division.

[Sorted]

When can a kid under 16 afford to pay £15 to watch a football match. They aren't allowed to work so do they just save their lunch money over a few days to pay for it then.

Both of my elder children worked from the age of 14 and had their own 'spends'.

[Huisdean]

I'm with Sorted on this one and think the tickets are reasonably priced given the game we face. Only change I would have possibly made is to reduce the concession to perhaps £10 and perhaps thay may have helped the gate.

I am of a generation where attending football matches was what you did on a Saturday (went to my first game at 9 and still attending at 53) but accept that has largely gone from the present generation as too many other distractions. However, some of the people who complain about the prices, especially young people will think nothing of spending fortunes on mobile phones, games etc and some older ones will waste several times the amount in a pub/club on a Saturday. I don't go to pubs often but that's my choice and I prefer to watch ICT so I just dont buy the argument for this particular game that the admission prices are set too high, for league games I totally agree that something needs to be done but there is a catch 22 situation for both the Celtic game and league games. If more fans attended on a regular basis, then perhaps the club could reduce prices but then people first have to come along at a higher price unless special deals can be devised.

I am sure it is not impossible to come up with soething that can boost crowds and reduce prices, all that is needed is the will to do this (and a reduction in apathy from the football public in Inverness who would soon moan if ICT wasn't there but do very little to help the team succeed and prosper)

[CaleyD]

Appear to be on a loser here !

Suppose it's not to be unexpected when you're not in the 'next to nothing' camp.

I don't think it's got anything to do with people wanting things for next to nothing, certainly not where I am coming from on this. I'm not a kid and I don't have kids so having a better price for them (and my main gripe is kids price, not concession price) saves me nothing. However, I am of the opinion that, as with a lot of things, if you work to bring in the kids then not only are you working to secure future income, but you are going to inevitably bring adults in along with them.

Not 'digging my heals heels in' CD just giving you a clear steer on why I have the viewpoint I do. Every day in life you hear people talk about the things they can't afford to do whilst making choices to do other things. Human nature I suppose. Same as the 'it's all right for you' viewpoint when it most cases it's not really it's just a choice scenario.

As well as the "can't afford" excuse, you also have the "value for money" excuse and "can't justify spending" excuse. If people don't want to do something they will always find an excuse....but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work to try and negate some of those excuses and try and bring in those for whom cost is a genuine factor. I don't accept the defeatist attitude that "people would rather spend X amount on this or that instead". Until that money is gone from their pocket we still have a chance to encourage them to spend it at/on ICT.

Joe, as stated perviously, I agree that there is considerable scope for offers and incentives to be delivered throughout the season. These need to be pushed further and I hope they will be. That said, I doubt you'll ever see the day when a child can walk in to Victoria Park and pay £3 to see a cup game versus Celtic?

OGC, I pay £72 per month for SKY (full buhna I know!) and that's my choice. Accept that I may have exaggerated the price of the cinema but it is still very expensive (food is ridiculous!).

In conclusion, I still belive you guys are using the wrong game to promote this approach. Club needs cash and needs to make hay when the sunshines even if that means asking a bit more from the home combine than in other fields!

I think this is the main point where our views splinter. I'm of the opinion that the big games can achieve an increased income without the need to forego rewarding those who support the club week on week AND bringing in potential new long term fans. It's the "big" games that are more likely to attract new bums on seats, so we should be capitalising on that, not only for short term gain, but long term benefit.

Here's how I would have priced up this game.....or something along these lines. Specific numbers are not the point, just the showing that you can achieve all goals if you are willing to just think a little about things.

Make West Stand the "Family Section". Priority ticket sales for season ticket holders from the existing family section...£15 Adult, £5 Kid. General Sale £20 Adult, £5 Kid (Kids tickets can only be purchased in conjunction with adult tickets).

North Stand. Priority Ticket Sales £20 Adult £5 Kid, General Sale £25 Adult £10 Kid.

Main Stand. Priority Ticket Sales £25 Adult, £10 Kid, General Sale £30 Adult, £15 Kid.

South Stand (Away Fans) £25 Adult, £10 Kid

Main Stand (Away Fans) £30 Adult, £15 Kid (assumes we give over the section at the end)

The reduced Priority Price would be available to Season Ticket Holders ONLY. Other priority qualifying groups must pay the general sale price. This rewards those who have ploughed hundreds of pounds into purchasing season tickets and stops those who are paying only £5 or £10 a year to be members of other qualifying groups from ripping the piss out of the scheme...but still giving them the chance to get tickets in advance of the wider general sale. Maximum of 1 additional Adult ticket and/or 2 kids tickets at reduced price over and above your own ticket (you can have more, but you pay general sale price)....again to stop people ripping the piss out of the scheme.

The General Sale prices are largely in line with our league ticket prices (for Adults) so the casual pay at the gate punter isn't being screwed over. Kids prices are kept reasonable so as bring them along to games isn't a huge financial burden on people.

Cheaper Family Section in West Stand opens up the existing family section seats to be sold at same price as rest of stand. If those in there want cheaper they move, if not they are welcome to take seats at the stand prices. Main and North Stand season ticket holders get a chance to purchase "A" class game tickets at "B" class prices....as it is, Main Stand Season Ticket holders are getting a bigger discount than North Stand (based on usual prices). Those who attend regular but not enough to justify having a Season Ticket are bound to know someone who does and they can get a chance at that reduced ticket price via a friend.

What's more....the setup adds value to being a Season Ticket holder. As I said earlier, I can't remember the last time that season ticket holders got a free cup game or whatever. Maybe that's a thing of the past and I have no idea if other clubs still do it, but offering a reduced price priority scheme adds back a bit of value and gives another thing to add to the reasons why you should buy a season ticket.

Impossible to guess at exact numbers, but I would say that the above would find us not too far off what we're going to bring in from doing the flat £20/£15 price....it may even bring in a little more. More importantly, it should bring in more of our own fans....and dilute the effect of away fans in our end.

I have deliberately ignored other concessions. Why? Because I would scrap them all (insert half a tongue in cheek smiley).

[Sorted]

Lot of merit in what you are proposing CD particularly the figures. Trouble is that I'm not certain that the reduction from the £15 for Saturday to £10 would make that much difference but happy to stand corrected.

Never being convinced that the problem we have is for 'big games' (appreciate you no longer see this as a big game but I do) as we will always have football fans of lots of different guises that will want to attend these events for a variety of reasons. Not as many as I would like and I accept the interest has tailed off dramatically from the heady days of entry to the SPL. Think we still need to focus on getting footfall in for the lower profile games.

All for cheap season tickets for kids, £3 entry to specific games and any other promotion that will bring numbers up. Encourage our own.

Still think it's right for the Celtic game !

[Sorted]

I'm with Sorted on this one and think the tickets are reasonably priced given the game we face. Only change I would have possibly made is to reduce the concession to perhaps £10 and perhaps thay may have helped the gate.

I am of a generation where attending football matches was what you did on a Saturday (went to my first game at 9 and still attending at 53) but accept that has largely gone from the present generation as too many other distractions. However, some of the people who complain about the prices, especially young people will think nothing of spending fortunes on mobile phones, games etc and some older ones will waste several times the amount in a pub/club on a Saturday. I don't go to pubs often but that's my choice and I prefer to watch ICT so I just dont buy the argument for this particular game that the admission prices are set too high, for league games I totally agree that something needs to be done but there is a catch 22 situation for both the Celtic game and league games. If more fans attended on a regular basis, then perhaps the club could reduce prices but then people first have to come along at a higher price unless special deals can be devised.

I am sure it is not impossible to come up with soething that can boost crowds and reduce prices, all that is needed is the will to do this (and a reduction in apathy from the football public in Inverness who would soon moan if ICT wasn't there but do very little to help the team succeed and prosper)

Thank you Huisdean, I,m not alone !

[CaleyD]

We clearly do have a problem for "big games" as we're now giving away large sections of the stadium to the opposition...something we've not had to do so much in the past but is becoming more and more apparent.

Accountants and penny counters might not see that as an issue so long as the money is coming from somewhere....meanwhile we trundle on in ignorant bliss that average attendances are holding....without realising that home support is falling. We sit around scratching our heads as to why the figures for people through the gate are the same but income for the year is down because nobody has connected the dots and realised that the lose in home support means we're not selling as many season tickets or as much merchandise, hospitality etc.

Looking at Rangers situation, how long and how sensible is it to rely so heavily and place as much emphasis on the income from these teams? Surely a more sensible business model is one where you build your own core customer base...at least to the point where you can sustain your existence on that income...and then view income from others as a bonus!!!

In one hand we argue that the loss of the OF wouldn't be the problem some people say it is, then on the other we say that we can't do without their cash....which is it?

P.S. I don't think you are alone in your thoughts....the club obviously think the same, hence the prices and the discussion it has generated. I may be totally wrong and sometimes my view on things can be a bit idealistic...but if it generates a bit of thought further up the chain and the outcome is something (maybe not even my ideas) which improves the clubs standing with it's own fans and gets a few more through the gates for any game, then all is good.